Sigma FP again

3 hours ago, John Doe II said:

What is the exchange rate of your dirhams to the USD ? (so I know how much you are spending on your opinion)

All of the above are valid. Not suggesting we shoot at 12800. Point is at the ISO we do shoot at, its as clean as a whistle. Amazing how we take this for granted these days. Also, not every scene is lit. Really depends on what you are doing and what sort of project one is constructing. Niche for sure but if thats your thing were else are you finding this?

Rec 2020 while not a big issue today IS going to be in the future. Having RAW footage that conforms to this can only be a good thing. Agree that today most delivery would be in rec 709. Still the footage captured has a wider gamut then rec 709 if its ever needed. Who knows which way this may go as we move forward.

The only downside I can see to full frame is depth of field issues. Harder to manually focus at full frame then B4 for sure.

I am not sure what Pawel has done on the battery life side of things but willing to bet is been dealt with (larger external battery in the housing?) So thats not really an issue for most cameras in a housing.

The only lenses I want to use underwater are Nikonos. Pawels housing has this covered very well. I trust Pawels engineering (He did win an Academy Award for his engineering of a camera after all) on his version of a Nikonos mount to his housing.

Ergonomics....double edged sword here. The best housing for stability will be big. No question about it. Best housing to fly under the radar will be tiny. No doubt about it. This last point depends on where in the world you are operating. I dont want to go any further on that topic. We all have our own needs and this camera being tiny and its housing not much bigger is ideal for me....maybe for you not so much?? But being a tiny housing its definitely going to have its issues in terms of handling and technique to get a good result. No doubt about it. The world is not fair but thats the way it is. In MY particular scenario small gets me in there and shooting whereas a big housing only raises attention that I dont want (or can afford). How that all pans out and the issues that stem from small and difficult to use remain to be seen.

Trade all these for DNG RAW and rec 2020.....

An open standard digital negative is the gold standard. Compute needs are easily overcome today. Storage is getting cheaper all the time. I dont want my RAW capture footage in a proprietary format. I'll take the DNG thanks.

Now having said ALL of that, I am not by any means sold on this FP setup yet. I am not drinking the cool aid here. I need to see footage and hear from people who have used the system. I cant afford to be the guinea pig. But if it shapes as well as its potential says it can then we might have a winner here.

What other cameras are there right now or coming soon? The S1. BMPCC 4K/6K. R5. Is there anything else ? (will not even remotely consider anything Chinese now after what has been done to us by the CCP)

I'd be really interested to hear the details on why you like your chosen camera system.

John

I really cant understand your priorities here. You are looking for a camera that does very well in low light conditions and its really small? That is my understanding so far. If that is what you are interested in and nothing else matters  because for some reason you cant go around with a camera bag, then get a gopro and a very good noise reduction software. The image will be bad anyway if you are shooting dark/deep with no lights. I travel with my complete GH5 rig including lights and WWL1 lens in the case that Nauticam use to ship their housing. Only the float arms go to checked luggage.

Anyway for the shake of discussion,

ISO 12800, many cameras get clean image at this ISO these days. The Fp sensor is the same one used on the S1/H as Interceptor has already said. I dont know what kind of scenes you shoot but in dark underwater environments if you dont use lights you are pretty much done. Where dark you can also consider deep. I shoot in deep water, inside wrecks, inside caves and I dont think I would have any kind of usable image without lights no matter how good the camera sensor would be. 

REC 2020, agreed it is coming quicker and quicker and if you want to be future proof then for sure you want something that covers more than REC709. Now enter log format and you got a wider color space. You dont have to have RAW to have a wide gamut color space. RAW advantage is mostly in color manipulation and WB and to a less extent (compared to stills) to highlight recovery. 

Depth of field, no matter how good the lens is if the subject is not focused then... you get the idea. I dont know how easy it will be to completely manually focus on the small screen of the camera. Does the Fp have focus peaking? How well it is implemented?   

Nothing to say about Pawel, his work speaks of himself. But do not compare professional film productions with amateur productions. 

We are putting ergonomics in completely different end of the scale. Stability is key. You can have the best image quality in the world if the shot is shaky its rejected. For me ergonomics are very important, diving deep where every minute counts is not the place to have a camera with no good ergonomics or gives you limited options to configure it in a way that works for you and your shooting workflow.

Sorry DNG is not the gold standard by any means, it is just an adobe attempt to have something that works well with their software. I am not saying it is bad (though it has its flaws) but it is not the gold standard. 

Not easy to reply to your question on what else is out there, because your required specifications (4k,6k small form factor, 12bit raw, Nikonos) seem to paint the specific camera. So I guess this is your best option. 

I chose my camera based on which system fitted my requirements best at the budget I had.

I am afraid I am missing something on what China has done to us.

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

John, no offense at all, but it's clear from what you write that you have little or no experience of underwater filming.

As @Interceptor121 and @Lionfi2sare trying to tell you, it's not all gold that glitters. The data on the paper doesn't necessarily reflect real advantages in the field. Besides, I stopped giving too much importance to VIP reviews on the web years ago. Many people have a strong incentive to push one product over another. Read: biased opinions.

Full frame is by no means the best format to shoot underwater. Even a RED (except the MONSTRO 8K) has a smaller sensor than the FF. On this forum you can find hundreds of posts explaining the pros and cons of having an FF camera. And no, photography is not video. In addition, all these hypothetical advantages will be put to the test by the operator's skills (read my signature).

Since you're talking about costs (and selling a kidney), things are pretty simple: we all know that selling used equipment means losing a lot of money anyway so:

#1 you're a professional. So you can spend a lot of money on the right tool for the job you just took. Surely with the revenue from your work you can easily make up the initial investment in a short/medium period of time.

#2 you are an amateur like many of us here (me first). Then it's important to stay mainstream. Because when you'll sell your used equipment, just having something very common/appealing can make up part of the investment. I have a nice collection of camera housing on the shelf.

It's clear that this camera is very niche. Only one manufacturer of niche underwater enclosures has claimed to make one. Do you think when you decide to sell it, it'll be easy?

That's why they pointed out to you that there is the Panasonic S1/S1H that has the same sensor and an electronics that has a history behind it. And yet, I'm convinced that it would be very difficult to sell a used SH1 housing.

Of course if you are a billionaire who has fallen in love with this camera, then the two options mentioned above do not apply.

Bye

It's not true. My Edius have Lanczos 3 downsampling method among the other and difference is quite noticeable

 

Davide resampling is for upscaling it does nothing to downscaling. The calculations to average pixels are complex and typically take minutes for a single frame. So when you go downwards it just skips

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Davide resampling is for upscaling it does nothing to downscaling. The calculations to average pixels are complex and typically take minutes for a single frame. So when you go downwards it just skips

Nope. On Edius it works on video downsampling:

https://www.ediusworld.com/old_pdfs/en/support/faq/EDIUS_ResamplingMethod.pdf

https://www.videoproductions.com.au/html/edius-downscale.html

Nope. On Edius it works on video downsampling:
https://www.ediusworld.com/old_pdfs/en/support/faq/EDIUS_ResamplingMethod.pdf
https://www.videoproductions.com.au/html/edius-downscale.html
 
 

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

We need to make a distinction
Pixel binning in camera averages pixels at source before any process takes place this process increases SNR
This can also work for static images that are not demosaiced
Video however is different (if already demosaiced and all formats are actually at least to an extent demosaiced)
The pixels have already gone chroma subsampling so the scaling operation decreases SNR. Lanczos is a good algorithm because it selects the best pixel of a group however that group of pixels is already debayered and sub sampled so the outcome is worse and not compared with averaging pixels at source
This misconception is common amongst all people that think shooting at higher resolution and then scaling down improves things, it doesn’t as you also see from the document there are always side effects


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Why don't you just say I didn't know it! 

it's much simpler. Isn't it?

No I did know it this topic came out in a GH5 group and same misconceptions
This sensor doesn’t have enough processing nor pixel to do anything so it crops to APSC and so you do from 6K because 6K is 3:2 aspect ratio
And you would have to crop and drop pixels too
Full sensor is still slow those cameras don’t do more than 30 fps at full rez and have plenty of rolling shutter
Really not much point and am done with this discussion


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Massimo, I'm speaking about a NLE you don't know and you reply me about sensors and processor and rolling shutter.

I have countless DVD made from HD and 4K content and since Edius introduced Lanczros 3 scaling algorithm, results are quite different. Moreover I don't see why I should not believe a document from Grass Valley, a company completely dedicated to professional equipment. 

I'm done too

Massimo, I'm speaking about a NLE you don't know and you reply me about sensors and processor and rolling shutter.
I have countless DVD made from HD and 4K content and since Edius introduced Lanczros 3 scaling algorithm, results are quite different. Moreover I don't see why I should not believe a document from Grass Valley, a company completely dedicated to professional equipment. 
I'm done too

Great conversation, thanks gentleman.

Lots to think about and your opinions/ideas/thoughts all help.

Chaps, although everyone loves a debate, let's keep it vaguely around diving and u/w photography, eh? Happily we have managed to avoid discussion over Brexit, US Presidents, Boris Johnson, Venezuela, Iran, the inequities of poverty, Islamic State..... etc. WP is generally a haven of calm and cooperation. It's our happy place. Let's keep it that way, eh?

Well said Tim. 

I have deleted the post.

Adam

I've been edited. oh well.

1 hour ago, John Doe II said:

I've been edited. oh well.

Life eh!?

Sigma got a ProRes RAW update just announced last week

It got Braw too

It got Braw too

This fw update really helps move this camera into a unique space.

The housing appears to be out but not been able to find any underwater footage. It is very interesting.

This fw update really helps move this camera into a unique space.
The housing appears to be out but not been able to find any underwater footage. It is very interesting.

3 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Still is the same sensor inside the S1H from Panasonic so I would not venture on a Sigma unless I could test it long time on land


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Why?

Have there been problems with the S1H sensor? I've not heard of any, but may well have missed the reports?

The folks that I know that have shot the S1H underwater thought very highly of it, and didn't report any problems.

Why?
Have there been problems with the S1H sensor? I've not heard of any, but may well have missed the reports?
The folks that I know that have shot the S1H underwater thought very highly of it, and didn't report any problems.