First Camera Advice!

Hi all,

I have been wanting to get into underwater photography for a while now. I've spoken to a few stores who have all recommended Mirrorless or DSLR setups so I can have the ability to grow and develop as a photographer. New options of either setups can be quite expensive. However, second hand DSLR gear seems to work out roughly the same to a new ''point and shoot'' setup. Is there any recommendations or suggestions as to what would be the best and why? Any help would be much appreciated.

I am a certified to rescue diver currently working on becoming a dive master, I have been diving at least once a fortnight quite consistently (until lockdown start again here in Australia).

Thanks in advance!

Hi, welcome to Wetpixel, and welcome to the world of making your bank manager cry!

You're likely to get lots of good, and possibly contradictory, advice with such a wide ranging  question. 

There can be no doubt  that the future of photography lies with  mirrorless cameras but that's a very long  way off saying dslr's are obsolete - most are still superb kits better than a large majority of shooters will ever need. 

The camera itself, whilst  the heart of  the system, won't be  the most expensive  part  of the whole system  - you need to be aware of the additional costs of add ons, not only strobes, but arms, cables, vacuum systems etc when pricing things up. 

So,  that comes to budget  - and be realistic here - it  escalates fast! Will you be happy with  2nd hand?

 What do you intend to shoot - macros, wide angle or both?

How  far  do  you travel? If you're  normally travelling by road, weight isn't too much  of  an issue but if you plan to fly to hard to reach locations then you may benefit from looking at a micro 4/3rd setup as opposed to a full dslr/full frame  mirrorless rig. 

If you could answer some of the above then maybe we can tailor more personal answers

Mike

Hi there,

Budget permitting go for a system that is most dynamic and one you can grow with.

If a serious photographer for publishing articles in magazines, digital media etc etc then I would avoid  point and shoot options.

Like the post above says, there are some really great DSLR deals that are worth looking at. Mirrorless though are lighter and smaller to carry.

Finally keep asking yourself, why do you want to take these images and what is your final goal with them. This then would go a long way in deciding the system most suitable, budget permitting.

Diggy

3 hours ago, mcranga said:

Hi all,

I have been wanting to get into underwater photography for a while now. I've spoken to a few stores who have all recommended Mirrorless or DSLR setups so I can have the ability to grow and develop as a photographer. New options of either setups can be quite expensive. However, second hand DSLR gear seems to work out roughly the same to a new ''point and shoot'' setup. Is there any recommendations or suggestions as to what would be the best and why? Any help would be much appreciated.

I am a certified to rescue diver currently working on becoming a dive master, I have been diving at least once a fortnight quite consistently (until lockdown start again here in Australia).

 

Thanks in advance!

What would you like to shoot?  wide angle? macro? wrecks? everything? How much resolution do you need, do you want to travel (by air) with the equipment?  All important considerations.  The housings are generally a lot bigger than the cameras they protect and as the sensor size goes up the dome size gets bigger.  Fitting everything into a carry-on and meeting size and weight limits for carry-on is a real challenge.  There are some options with wet lenses to keep things more compact with some of the newer full frame mirrorless systems as well, though these tend to have their own issues not least being price.

If you are not selling your shots, m43 sensor systems are more compact and the resolution is good enough and you can get away with more basic strobes potentially as you don't need to stop down as much in smaller formats, weight and size of the systems when diving is also nicer to deal with.  Lenses are also cheaper to buy.    Second hand is a nice option but in Australia the market is smaller and you may need to be patient to find what you are looking for.  If you are looking at new aluminium housings you can buy the housing and camera and macro lens/port for around the price of just the housing for a DSLR.

Do you have a clue about photography generally? If not, starting with a DSLR will likely be a hugely expensive AND frustrating experience.

If you don't, start with a decent p&s like a TG6 perhaps. Used DSLRs will always be available, but until you develop some photography skills, they'd just be "too much" I believe.

It sounds like you're a relatively new diver, but diving lots, which is great, but don't under-estimate the task-loading involved with a complex camera system.

9 hours ago, pooley said:

Hi, welcome to Wetpixel, and welcome to the world of making your bank manager cry!

You're likely to get lots of good, and possibly contradictory, advice with such a wide ranging  question. 

There can be no doubt  that the future of photography lies with  mirrorless cameras but that's a very long  way off saying dslr's are obsolete - most are still superb kits better than a large majority of shooters will ever need. 

The camera itself, whilst  the heart of  the system, won't be  the most expensive  part  of the whole system  - you need to be aware of the additional costs of add ons, not only strobes, but arms, cables, vacuum systems etc when pricing things up. 

So,  that comes to budget  - and be realistic here - it  escalates fast! Will you be happy with  2nd hand?

 What do you intend to shoot - macros, wide angle or both?

How  far  do  you travel? If you're  normally travelling by road, weight isn't too much  of  an issue but if you plan to fly to hard to reach locations then you may benefit from looking at a micro 4/3rd setup as opposed to a full dslr/full frame  mirrorless rig. 

If you could answer some of the above then maybe we can tailor more personal answers

Mike

8 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

What would you like to shoot?  wide angle? macro? wrecks? everything? How much resolution do you need, do you want to travel (by air) with the equipment?  All important considerations.  The housings are generally a lot bigger than the cameras they protect and as the sensor size goes up the dome size gets bigger.  Fitting everything into a carry-on and meeting size and weight limits for carry-on is a real challenge.  There are some options with wet lenses to keep things more compact with some of the newer full frame mirrorless systems as well, though these tend to have their own issues not least being price.

If you are not selling your shots, m43 sensor systems are more compact and the resolution is good enough and you can get away with more basic strobes potentially as you don't need to stop down as much in smaller formats, weight and size of the systems when diving is also nicer to deal with.  Lenses are also cheaper to buy.    Second hand is a nice option but in Australia the market is smaller and you may need to be patient to find what you are looking for.  If you are looking at new aluminium housings you can buy the housing and camera and macro lens/port for around the price of just the housing for a DSLR.

9 hours ago, diggy said:

Hi there,

Budget permitting go for a system that is most dynamic and one you can grow with.

If a serious photographer for publishing articles in magazines, digital media etc etc then I would avoid  point and shoot options.

Like the post above says, there are some really great DSLR deals that are worth looking at. Mirrorless though are lighter and smaller to carry.

Finally keep asking yourself, why do you want to take these images and what is your final goal with them. This then would go a long way in deciding the system most suitable, budget permitting.

 

Diggy

1 hour ago, Stoo said:

Do you have a clue about photography generally? If not, starting with a DSLR will likely be a hugely expensive AND frustrating experience.

If you don't, start with a decent p&s like a TG6 perhaps. Used DSLRs will always be available, but until you develop some photography skills, they'd just be "too much" I believe.

It sounds like you're a relatively new diver, but diving lots, which is great, but don't under-estimate the task-loading involved with a complex camera system.

Thank you all for the warm welcome and information. I have been forewarned about the sometimes eye watering financial side of this hobby/passion/work.

For a budget I don't really have a magic number in mind, for the right gear I am willing to spend a bit of money but at the time understand there's no point in buying a $10,000 camera if I cannot get decent photos with a $1,000 unit. I personally would have no issue with starting out on second hand gear, it was suggested to me by a few photography friends so when upgrading time occurs I don't lose as much on the resell of gear. 

I would like a camera that could do both wide and macro I think. I'm lucky enough to be a short drive from dive sites that are home to amazing organisms such as grey nurse sharks (sand tiger shark), weedy seadragons, cephalopods, eels and much much more.

I would agree that I am still new to diving, I have 64 dives under my belt but 100% plan on diving for as long as I can.

For the time being this would be just a hobby of mine with most captures being posted on social feed (if I manage to snap an okay shot). I am currently studying marine science with the intent of at least doing my masters, if I am lucky then maybe I can tie this all together someday but that's still a ways to go.

I'm definitely a novice when it comes to photography above the waves. I do have access to a Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 and a good friend who loves land based photography so we have been trying to work on this. Unfortunately due to Australia's most recent lockdown and my work situation this has been halted for the last 3 months.

Cheers!

mcranga - my best advice is start with a point and shoot that allows you to shoot in manual so you can learn how to shoot underwater in manual on a smaller rig. They also allow you to start with smaller, cheaper strobes that the bigger systems don't love. If you're a novice above land you don't want to be learning everything at the same time.

That means your higher end Sony compact, Canon and Panasonic compact are probably the ones to look at. They're cheaper to house, don't need additional ports & lenses, and you can shoot both wide and macro in the camera with a minimum of fuss and in the same dives.

I currently run a Sony RX100VA, and if you want to check out my pics you can look at instagram (little.ocean.mel). It's done me really well for all the Melbourne macro, as well as holiday wide angle. I know you have similar (and sometimes a lot better!) macro than us, and you definitely have more WA opportunities. The Sony RX100VA is probably the best, last camera I'd recommend in that line as the VI and VII start to get less flexible with housings & ports. The Canon G16/G5/G9 would be the equivalent of the Sony RX series and also highly recommended.

However, now as I move to a semi-pro setup on the great barrier reef, it becomes more apparent that I need something with more reach and faster recycle times. Having said that, this setup is going to run me to a minimum of $10k.

I'm happy to break down costs of the compact setup for you if you like? I purchased a mix of new & secondhand equipment.

3 hours ago, Mel45 said:

mcranga - my best advice is start with a point and shoot that allows you to shoot in manual so you can learn how to shoot underwater in manual on a smaller rig. They also allow you to start with smaller, cheaper strobes that the bigger systems don't love. If you're a novice above land you don't want to be learning everything at the same time.

That means your higher end Sony compact, Canon and Panasonic compact are probably the ones to look at. They're cheaper to house, don't need additional ports & lenses, and you can shoot both wide and macro in the camera with a minimum of fuss and in the same dives.

I currently run a Sony RX100VA, and if you want to check out my pics you can look at instagram (little.ocean.mel). It's done me really well for all the Melbourne macro, as well as holiday wide angle. I know you have similar (and sometimes a lot better!) macro than us, and you definitely have more WA opportunities. The Sony RX100VA is probably the best, last camera I'd recommend in that line as the VI and VII start to get less flexible with housings & ports. The Canon G16/G5/G9 would be the equivalent of the Sony RX series and also highly recommended.

However, now as I move to a semi-pro setup on the great barrier reef, it becomes more apparent that I need something with more reach and faster recycle times. Having said that, this setup is going to run me to a minimum of $10k.

I'm happy to break down costs of the compact setup for you if you like? I purchased a mix of new & secondhand equipment.

If that's possible Mel yes please! I have no issue spending more money and get it right the first time, nothings worse than buying twice

No problem. I'll price up both of my rigs for you although the new one hasn't arrived yet, so I'm not finished spending 

Sony RX100V - new items:

Camera  - $1500

Fantasea housing - $500

2 x Sea&Sea YS01 Solis strobes - $600 each

2 x fibre optic cables - $100

Arms / Clamps / Tray - ~$250 new

Total $3,350 with two strobes.

You could get away with 1 strobe, and second hand strobes are generally fine if you do your due diligence. The strobe I've listed above is both manual and TTL. Some of the cheaper strobes are TTL only, and I prefer to shoot in manual.

A Canon setup would be a similar price point.

These are the add ons which I got second hand, and I'd recommend for most compact setups, but you don't have to do it all at once:

- unbranded 67mm flip holder $50 (this will allow you to shoot super macro, as well as wide angle.. you can flip the magnifying diopter on or off depending on the subject)

- macro wet lens, Subsee +10 diopter - $200

- Wide angle wet lens UWL-09 - $600

Toys that you don't need but maybe want...

- SMC-1 wet lens +15 diopter - $400 (super super macro!)

- UW video light, Fantasea F2000 - $500

I'll list the mirrorless setup in a new post.

Nikon Z6 mirrorless setup - I should mention some of the items are part of a demo setup from a pro friend, but will list retail prices too... to compare the difference with a compact. I've outgrown the compact after about year 2.5 underwater.

I'm prioritising a wide angle setup first.

Nikon Z6 Full Frame Mirrorless setup:

Nikon Z6 body: $2300 new, $1500 second hand

Housing: $4400 new, $1900 demo model

Nikkor 8-15mm fisheye lens: $1300 new

8" Dome port: $1450 new, $1000 demo model

Lens converter & port zoom ring: $175

Port extension ring: $250 new

Ball joints for tray x 2: $50 each new

Vacuum system: $330 new, $180 demo

2 x strobes - indecisive on brand yet (tossing up between Retra and INON), expected new cost $1,300 each or ~ $650 each second hand

I will reuse my video light from my previous setup

Total cost of setup new with two strobes - which is only for wide angle: $12,905

Total cost of combined second hand with a few new items: $7,705

To be clear, in order to shoot pictures I need all of the above except for 2 strobes, potentially I can go with no strobes to start or one strobe. Then in order to shoot macro, I need to add on the following items, which will be purchased new:

Nikkor MC 50mm lens: $1000

Port: $400

Extension ring: $250 (TBC)

Additional $1650

I can also then use my existing wet lenses on TOP of this 50mm lens, so I can use the SMC+15 diopter for additional macro capability. Some things that you buy for the compact setup are reuseable with a bigger setup.

Anyway.. hope this helps. I'm very keen to get my mirrorless setup but still heading out to the reef this weekend with the Sony

I'm sure others will have different advice on which way to go, but personally I've appreciated learning my craft on the smaller more portable rig (especially for tricky entries and shore diving, and I'll keep the sony for shore diving here), and now am looking forward to the challenge of porting those skills over to a mirrorless rig. I've also been doing a lot of landscape/topside shooting with DSLRs lately and really honing those skills, too.

5 hours ago, Mel45 said:

However, now as I move to a semi-pro setup on the great barrier reef, it becomes more apparent that I need something with more reach and faster recycle times. Having said that, this setup is going to run me to a minimum of $10k. 

also:

I can also then use my existing wet lenses on TOP of this 50mm lens, so I can use the SMC+15 diopter for additional macro capability. Some things that you buy for the compact setup are reuseable with a bigger setup.

I noticed you've mentioned reach a couple of times, I'm not really sure what you mean by that as the traditional meaning is using longer lenses to get closer.  In UW however that's really not that useful.  Wide angle predominates not to get a wider field, but to allow you to frame the same scene closer.

I would also mention wet lenses will not be useful with the 50mm MC lens.  Wet diopters work by allowing you to focus closer than you can already and as I mentioned recently the minimum focusing distance for the 50mm MC lens is about 40mm and if you add a diopter it will probably focus on the glass if it focuses at all.

Hi Chris - thanks, yes 'reach' in my own head is a bit different to the trad meaning (which I do also understand). It's more about pic quality, allowing me to keep similar distances but get a better quality of picture. However, I do understand that for WA (especially CFWA) distance to the dome is quite important, I believe I'll still get better quality pictures with a mirrorless though even at the same distance as the compact.

Noted re: the 50mm MC with diopter!  Macro will be a distant second for me although its definitely my first love... Will probably keep the compact for that for a little while,  anyway.

7 hours ago, mcranga said:

For the time being this would be just a hobby of mine with most captures being posted on social feed (if I manage to snap an okay shot). I am currently studying marine science with the intent of at least doing my masters, if I am lucky then maybe I can tie this all together someday but that's still a ways to go.

I'm definitely a novice when it comes to photography above the waves. I do have access to a Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 and a good friend who loves land based photography so we have been trying to work on this. Unfortunately due to Australia's most recent lockdown and my work situation this has been halted for the last 3 months.

You may find you are happy with a compact to just snap photos and while you can add  wet lenses to go wider or do macro there are limitations and it will depend on how patient you are to keep working around them.  The issue is the core range of the 1"compact is a 24-70 lens that really doesn't focus that close - so the bare camera takes reef snaps and is fine for photographing larger fish etc, probably weedies as well.  

To go wider once you pick the right camera is relatively easy,  though best wet wide lenses are quite pricey (Nauticam WWL) and large and heavy and not that practical to swap and change during a dive as you need somewhere to put them.  Many people revert to treating them like a wide angle setup and leave them on the whole dive.  You also need to remove them when you hop in the burp them - get rid of bubbles clinging to the glass.

For macro the lenses will give you a very limited working range for example the RX100 V with a CMC-2 only focuses between 80 and 124 mm from the subject  and fills the frame with a 48 x 32mm subject on a Nauticam housing.  Outside this range nothing is in focus.  It can be frustrating to position the camera properly every time.

Strobes are one item you can keep as you upgrade if you buy a good set first up.

Unless you are printing your images large or specail cases that require low light performance you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 1"compact and a full frame DSLR or mirrorless setup.  What you do get by stepping up to an interchangable lens setup is usability, for example your macro lens focuses all the way from 1m away (or further - but you don't want too much water in the way) to life size making framing a lot easier - generally the AF is better and importantly you can use fisheye lenses as well  for wide angle work.  The costs between a m43 and a full frame system can be significant, here's some examples using new prices for Nauticam components and new prices from digidirect for lenses:

It soon adds up to a significant difference as you go through the components.   I use an olympus EM-1 MkII setup and it's good enough, kind of a sweet spot, the the image quality is better than a compact and can compete with APS-C systems on quality while using the cheaper mirrorless lenses, which are generally very sharp.  I just don't have the uses for my photos that needs more quality.  I would suggest you go through pricing the various options to see what you are up against.  Remember when upgrading most items will only net you 50-60% of the new price.

On 9/17/2021 at 2:00 PM, Mel45 said:

No problem. I'll price up both of my rigs for you although the new one hasn't arrived yet, so I'm not finished spending 

Sony RX100V - new items:

Camera  - $1500

Fantasea housing - $500

2 x Sea&Sea YS01 Solis strobes - $600 each

2 x fibre optic cables - $100

Arms / Clamps / Tray - ~$250 new

Total $3,350 with two strobes.

You could get away with 1 strobe, and second hand strobes are generally fine if you do your due diligence. The strobe I've listed above is both manual and TTL. Some of the cheaper strobes are TTL only, and I prefer to shoot in manual.

A Canon setup would be a similar price point.

These are the add ons which I got second hand, and I'd recommend for most compact setups, but you don't have to do it all at once:

- unbranded 67mm flip holder $50 (this will allow you to shoot super macro, as well as wide angle.. you can flip the magnifying diopter on or off depending on the subject)

- macro wet lens, Subsee +10 diopter - $200

- Wide angle wet lens UWL-09 - $600

Toys that you don't need but maybe want...

- SMC-1 wet lens +15 diopter - $400 (super super macro!)

- UW video light, Fantasea F2000 - $500

I'll list the mirrorless setup in a new post.

 

 

thank you again for going to the trouble of this! That pricing seems quite reasonable for a setup, is there any regrets or things you wished you did differently with the setup?

On 9/17/2021 at 4:15 PM, ChrisRoss said:

You may find you are happy with a compact to just snap photos and while you can add  wet lenses to go wider or do macro there are limitations and it will depend on how patient you are to keep working around them.  The issue is the core range of the 1"compact is a 24-70 lens that really doesn't focus that close - so the bare camera takes reef snaps and is fine for photographing larger fish etc, probably weedies as well.  

To go wider once you pick the right camera is relatively easy,  though best wet wide lenses are quite pricey (Nauticam WWL) and large and heavy and not that practical to swap and change during a dive as you need somewhere to put them.  Many people revert to treating them like a wide angle setup and leave them on the whole dive.  You also need to remove them when you hop in the burp them - get rid of bubbles clinging to the glass.

For macro the lenses will give you a very limited working range for example the RX100 V with a CMC-2 only focuses between 80 and 124 mm from the subject  and fills the frame with a 48 x 32mm subject on a Nauticam housing.  Outside this range nothing is in focus.  It can be frustrating to position the camera properly every time.

Strobes are one item you can keep as you upgrade if you buy a good set first up.

Unless you are printing your images large or specail cases that require low light performance you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 1"compact and a full frame DSLR or mirrorless setup.  What you do get by stepping up to an interchangable lens setup is usability, for example your macro lens focuses all the way from 1m away (or further - but you don't want too much water in the way) to life size making framing a lot easier - generally the AF is better and importantly you can use fisheye lenses as well  for wide angle work.  The costs between a m43 and a full frame system can be significant, here's some examples using new prices for Nauticam components and new prices from digidirect for lenses:

 

It soon adds up to a significant difference as you go through the components.   I use an olympus EM-1 MkII setup and it's good enough, kind of a sweet spot, the the image quality is better than a compact and can compete with APS-C systems on quality while using the cheaper mirrorless lenses, which are generally very sharp.  I just don't have the uses for my photos that needs more quality.  I would suggest you go through pricing the various options to see what you are up against.  Remember when upgrading most items will only net you 50-60% of the new price.

I see, there is definitely a big jump with the quotes. Do you think its possible to learn on a mirrorless/ would it be worthwhile to start out on? Or is it too big of a jump and would realistically just turn out to be overwhelming. 

1 hour ago, mcranga said:

I see, there is definitely a big jump with the quotes. Do you think its possible to learn on a mirrorless/ would it be worthwhile to start out on? Or is it too big of a jump and would realistically just turn out to be overwhelming. 

I don't see a great deal of difference between setting up a compact vs an interchangeable lens camera.  You'll still want to shoot both on manual and there are less kludges to deal with things like for example no manual flash mode on the compacts. 

The ability to shoot macro, wide angle and everything else on the one dive is less, but it is generally regarded as better to decide ahead of time what you are looking for on a dive so you are better able to find subjects and the whole setup of the shot rather than chopping and changing between different subjects and getting average snaps of them everything rather than great shots of your selected subjects.  It's like getting your head into a macro space or a wide angle space.  Macro for example often requires a lot of searching to find well camouflages interesting subjects, while the approach to find wide angle subjects might be quite different.

We have been talking about wet lenses to extend the range of the compact fixed lens and you can do it, but unless you shell out for the very expensive new generation of wide lenses you often are not getting that wide with your shots and as I explained before, macro is a bit limiting due to the characteristics of the diopters.  Shooting with a proper macro lens is lot simpler in my mind.

From listening to the OP, then a 4/3rd camera would be my recommendation. 

No concerns over IQ  once used competently, you can pick up a reasonably priced 2nd  hand setup which if you go with a manufacturer like Nauticam that offers good upgrade capabilities then it will be a smooth transition come the inevitable upgrade!

Lighter than dslr / full frame mirrorless, good water optics  for the future, possibly more cash available to spend  on  quality strobes  that  should last  longer than any other part of the  kit. 

Just  please please, be  competent  in the  water before  taking the  rig down

Mike

On 9/18/2021 at 6:54 PM, ChrisRoss said:

I don't see a great deal of difference between setting up a compact vs an interchangeable lens camera.  You'll still want to shoot both on manual and there are less kludges to deal with things like for example no manual flash mode on the compacts. 

The ability to shoot macro, wide angle and everything else on the one dive is less, but it is generally regarded as better to decide ahead of time what you are looking for on a dive so you are better able to find subjects and the whole setup of the shot rather than chopping and changing between different subjects and getting average snaps of them everything rather than great shots of your selected subjects.  It's like getting your head into a macro space or a wide angle space.  Macro for example often requires a lot of searching to find well camouflages interesting subjects, while the approach to find wide angle subjects might be quite different.

We have been talking about wet lenses to extend the range of the compact fixed lens and you can do it, but unless you shell out for the very expensive new generation of wide lenses you often are not getting that wide with your shots and as I explained before, macro is a bit limiting due to the characteristics of the diopters.  Shooting with a proper macro lens is lot simpler in my mind.

 

 

oh okay thank you! sorry for the basic questions. All still a lot to process

22 hours ago, pooley said:

From listening to the OP, then a 4/3rd camera would be my recommendation. 

No concerns over IQ  once used competently, you can pick up a reasonably priced 2nd  hand setup which if you go with a manufacturer like Nauticam that offers good upgrade capabilities then it will be a smooth transition come the inevitable upgrade!

Lighter than dslr / full frame mirrorless, good water optics  for the future, possibly more cash available to spend  on  quality strobes  that  should last  longer than any other part of the  kit. 

Just  please please, be  competent  in the  water before  taking the  rig down

Mike

Definitely will keep working on diving before taking a rig along with me! I can imagine having a setup completely throws off your trim and buoyancy until you're comfortable with it. 

32 minutes ago, mcranga said:

Definitely will keep working on diving before taking a rig along with me! I can imagine having a setup completely throws off your trim and buoyancy until you're comfortable with it. 

Mike's advice is good, mcranga.

It's not just buoyancy and trim that's the issue. It's the level of concentration that you put into u/w photography that makes you lose sight of many of the usual dive precautions: equalising, bottom time, remaining air, depth..... It's seriously easy to get completely lost in the picture-taking moment and, bingo.... you are where you don't want to be. I think many (most?) of us have been there - utterly focussed on the image, you check your computer and 2 mins of RBT left.  Wall dives are a particular one to be very wary of!