Upgrading (finally) from compact to mirrorless

Finally ready to upgrade.. 

I have had a Sony RX100 II and Nauticam housing since it was released.. I don't remember when that was. But. It was awhile back! It's been great. I love that I can carry both a macro and a wide angle lens and get awesome shots, but I am ready to upgrade. The new RX100 are ridiculously priced, and they seem to all have issues - good with video, bad with macro, good with wide angle etc. So I think I want to change to mirrorless. The question now is which one. 

I am not ready to spend $3000 for just a camera that I use underwater, and I really doubt I'm going to buy lenses and switch those out. So something that is an all round star is a good idea. I have been looking at the  Olympus PEN E-PL10 and the AOI housing, but I am curious about what others think, and are using. How do you like that system? 

I also have 2x Sea and Sea strobes (YSD1 and a YSD2), wide angle wet lens and a macro diopter

Thanks all! 

3 hours ago, Romany said:

Finally ready to upgrade.. 

I have had a Sony RX100 II and Nauticam housing since it was released.. I don't remember when that was. But. It was awhile back! It's been great. I love that I can carry both a macro and a wide angle lens and get awesome shots, but I am ready to upgrade. The new RX100 are ridiculously priced, and they seem to all have issues - good with video, bad with macro, good with wide angle etc. So I think I want to change to mirrorless. The question now is which one. 

I am not ready to spend $3000 for just a camera that I use underwater, and I really doubt I'm going to buy lenses and switch those out. So something that is an all round star is a good idea. I have been looking at the  Olympus PEN E-PL10 and the AOI housing, but I am curious about what others think, and are using. How do you like that system? 

I also have 2x Sea and Sea strobes (YSD1 and a YSD2), wide angle wet lens and a macro diopter

Thanks all! 

I would think that it would be a relatively seamless switch over as the 14-42 lens should have similar performance to the lens in the RX-100 II ( 28-80 vs 28-100 equivalent).  Certainly for stills you shouldn't notice a lot of difference.  Olympus is not renowned for video capability so I'm not sure it will match up there - I guess it depends on how important video performance is to you compared to stills.  As far as an upgrade goes it will mainly be a bit betters sensor, maybe about 1 stop better in performance.  Doesn't seem like a big improvement over the RX-100?

The alternative Might be something like an EM-5 III, that would be about 1.5 stops better on sensor performance than the RX100 and have significantly better AF than the EPL camera - putting it in an Isotta housing with a 14-42 lens would be around $2800-2900 in $US prices.  Seems like this would be decent boost on both image quality and AF performance. 

5 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

I would think that it would be a relatively seamless switch over as the 14-42 lens should have similar performance to the lens in the RX-100 II ( 28-80 vs 28-100 equivalent).  Certainly for stills you shouldn't notice a lot of difference.  Olympus is not renowned for video capability so I'm not sure it will match up there - I guess it depends on how important video performance is to you compared to stills.  As far as an upgrade goes it will mainly be a bit betters sensor, maybe about 1 stop better in performance.  Doesn't seem like a big improvement over the RX-100?

The alternative Might be something like an EM-5 III, that would be about 1.5 stops better on sensor performance than the RX100 and have significantly better AF than the EPL camera - putting it in an Isotta housing with a 14-42 lens would be around $2800-2900 in $US prices.  Seems like this would be decent boost on both image quality and AF performance. 

I support the advise from Chris and want to add, that an even better value (compared to EM5III) is given by looking for a used Nauticam housing for EM1II with Em1II body. The price difference betwen camera bodies (EM1II vs. EM5III) may not be worth considering, while the performance UW is not really different. I doubth that there will used EM5III Nauticam housings on the second hand market, but used EM1II housings are liekly available -  buying the housing second hand will really  result in substantial savings)...

I think that a used Nauticam housing and a new, discounted EM1II, will be similarily priced to the new AOI plastic housing with new EM1IV camera. In the midterm timerange, the Nauticam solution is much more future proof...

Wolfgang

I have been using the EPL10 in the AOI housing for the last year.  You can se some of the images on my instagram, @DivingWithDan, most of the photos are using the EPL10 + Panasonic 8mm fisheye.  I do not have any wet lenses so I chose to go the route of dedicated lenses and ports.  the EPL10 came with the 14-42, I also have the Oly 60mm F2.8 macro and port for it.

I really like the small package that the EPL10 offers, and since you have the wet lenses you will just need the camera and housing. When I can get back into the water I am going to be taking the 14-42 lens out for a spin, The local squid run is starting to happen so I think it would be a good opportunity to try out the 14-42.  I can share photos if I make it out in time for the squid run.

Edit: I also upgraded from a Sony RX100Va to the Oly EPL10.

Romany, In turns of RAW image quality the differences between EPL-10, EM-5 II/III and EM-1 II/III are negligible at best. There expensive cameras have other feature differences that outshine EPL-10 but overall image quality is not one of them.

I reviewed the EPL-10 and the Backscatter version AOI housing for UWPMAG.com back issue #122 and for the money it is the best entry level mirrorless system hands down. At $1299.00 for the EPL-10 camera, 14-42mm zoom lens, zoom gear and AOI housing and port with 67mm threads it is a bargain. AOI has been building housings for decades, for Olympus and others so no surprise that they are well made.

A used Nauticam EM-1 II housing is now listed on this site at $1400.00 alone for the housing which is about half the new price so seems about correct.  

Thanks all for the help and suggestions. 

I had been toying with going to the EM-5, but it seems that it’s not that big of an upgrade for the extra investment. 

Phil, you said AOI housings are pretty solid? I’m not that familiar with them, and I really dislike the octo housing tbh, I mean it’s cute but I end up modeling for folks too and it’s distracting against the marine life. 

Does anyone know if we’re going to get an EP11 soon? Is it worth hanging tight for that since the 10’s been out over 2 years? Right? 

6 hours ago, Romany said:

Thanks all for the help and suggestions. 

I had been toying with going to the EM-5, but it seems that it’s not that big of an upgrade for the extra investment. 

Phil, you said AOI housings are pretty solid? I’m not that familiar with them, and I really dislike the octo housing tbh, I mean it’s cute but I end up modeling for folks too and it’s distracting against the marine life. 

Does anyone know if we’re going to get an EP11 soon? Is it worth hanging tight for that since the 10’s been out over 2 years? Right? 

I wouldn't hold your breath for an EP-11 - it might appear tomorrow or never and it may not fit the AOI housing.

As far as the EM-5III goes I suggested that because to me the difference between the RX-100II and EPL cameras is not that great.  I have used both the EM-5II which has the 16MP sensor of the EPL cameras and the EM-1 II.  The EM-1 has 20 MP rather than 16 MP and the noise performance is noticeably better.  I would use ISO400 on land with the EM-5 II but was happy to use ISO800 with the EM-1 II.   The image quality from the EM-1 II gives the Nikon D500 a run for its money.

The main difference is the AF being significantly better - I can use C-AF plus tracking UW with the EM-1 II while this was not possible with the EM-5 II.  With the 60mm macro it was night and day better.  The EPL I believe has similar AF performance to the EM-10 series - less AF points and overall slower AF.  The EM-5 III has the same AF as the the EM-1 II.   I haven't used the EPL cameras or the Sony but I know I was a little disappointed with the AF on the EM-5 II. 

My thinking is the improvement in the images is there with the EPL cameras even if a little small, so I would be inclined to spend a bit more the make it seem more like a decent upgrade. Especially if you can land a second hand EM-1 II housing.   Keep in mind though that a Nauticam EM-1 housing is a class bigger in size than the RX-100 housings. 

You say you are ready to upgrade - though not what you are hoping to improve.  I would suggest thinking about what improvements you would like to see in the upgrade or where the Sony is lacking, that might help guide you a bit better and help us give you better suggestions.  What type of diving/photgraphy do you do the most?

Thanks all for the continued help.
 

I notice that the speed isn’t often there to capture larger specimens and that the depth isn’t there on macro on the RX100. And all can be grainy. I don’t really care about video - I do it occasionally but it’s not the focus of my hobby.  Overall I’ve been thrilled at what I have been able to do with it and what I continue to do but I’m ready to take another step forward and see what else I can do. I am trying to get to Indonesia - 2020 trip postponed again, but hope by 2023!! I do want to be prepared to take advantage of all that it has underwater then

So I guess MP count, the ability to go higher than f11 are key here 

I am completely an amateur and this is solely for fun, but here’s my portfolio if that’s useful: http://www.goldenlily.org/portfolio/

thanks Helen

On 1/22/2022 at 2:00 AM, Phil Rudin said:

Romany, In turns of RAW image quality the differences between EPL-10, EM-5 II/III and EM-1 II/III are negligible at best. There expensive cameras have other feature differences that outshine EPL-10 but overall image quality is not one of them.

I reviewed the EPL-10 and the Backscatter version AOI housing for UWPMAG.com back issue #122 and for the money it is the best entry level mirrorless system hands down. At $1299.00 for the EPL-10 camera, 14-42mm zoom lens, zoom gear and AOI housing and port with 67mm threads it is a bargain. AOI has been building housings for decades, for Olympus and others so no surprise that they are well made.

A used Nauticam EM-1 II housing is now listed on this site at $1400.00 alone for the housing which is about half the new price so seems about correct.  

 

@Romany I have been using the EPL-10 in an AOI housing for about a year and would highly recommend it.

Before pulling the trigger I did a comparison between the EPL-10, EM5III and EM1III before buying. It was mainly about performance per unit price and also my limited budget.

In terms of image quality, as Phil concluded "RAW image quality the differences between EPL-10, EM-5 II/III and EM-1 II/III are negligible at best", which is very true, also if you're using strobes I don't think it makes a very big difference. 

In terms of AF, the EM5III and EM1III are better, but the AF on the EPL10 is fast enough for tracking even small fish. It does have C-AF with Tracking, and works reasonably well. Sometimes the EPL10 will hunt due to particles in the water but with a focus light trained on the subject (avoid lighting the particles) you can side step this issue.

In terms of housing size, the AOI EPL10 is super small and compact, has LED triggering and vacuum valve as standard. You only need a few ports and they are cheap. I find the EM5III and EM1II housings to be unnecessarily bulky, underfeatured (still need to buy LED triggers) and expensive port systems.

I also figured at $1299.00 for the EPL-10 camera, 14-42mm zoom lens, zoom gear and AOI housing and port with 67mm threads, I could invest my remaining budget into additional lenses and accessories which would make it a more capable system than if I went with the more expensive models. Basically with the EPL10 I could afford a more flexible/more capable overall system (with additional lenses) than with the more expensive EM5III and EM1III where I could only afford the bare camera and housing. 

I've mainly been using the EPL10 with the 60mm macro lens for fish portraits and have been very happy. 

Funny enough I now also have the EM5III and EM1II but use them for wildlife and bird photography topside. Comparing them now, I am still happy with the EPL10, the only thing I wish is more buttons, customization and custom modes for the EPL10.

Attached are some pictures I’ve been able to take.

3 hours ago, Romany said:

Thanks all for the continued help.
I notice that the speed isn’t often there to capture larger specimens and that the depth isn’t there on macro on the RX100. And all can be grainy. I don’t really care about video - I do it occasionally but it’s not the focus of my hobby.  Overall I’ve been thrilled at what I have been able to do with it and what I continue to do but I’m ready to take another step forward and see what else I can do. I am trying to get to Indonesia - 2020 trip postponed again, but hope by 2023!! I do want to be prepared to take advantage of all that it has underwater then

So I guess MP count, the ability to go higher than f11 are key here 

I am completely an amateur and this is solely for fun, but here’s my portfolio if that’s useful: http://www.goldenlily.org/portfolio/

thanks Helen

OK, so faster AF and more depth of field.  I think your fastest AF is going to be with the EM-1 MkII.  It sounds like the EPL-10 will be some improvement over current situation, but it won't be as good as the EM-1 II. 

As far as depth of field goes, the biggest determinant for that will be magnification, which is the ratio between size of subject in real life and size on the sensor.  Going from the 1"sensor in the RX100 to a m43 sensor with the same framing - same relative size in the frame, you need more magnification and depth of field will go down.at constant aperture as magnification has gone up. 

You can stop the m43 lenses down further but the image quality starts to go off.  If you look at test results on m43 lenses such as the 60mm macro you can see the quality drops quite a bit past f11 and dramatically past f16.  see this link:  https://www.opticallimits.com/m43/781-oly6028?start=1

All of the lenses do this it's down to physics, if you look at other lenses on that site the analysis stops at f11 only macro lenses are tested to f22.

Your depth of field at f11 and 0.5x life size would 3.9mm on the RX100 and would increase to 5.5mm at f16 if you could set it there.  To get the same depth of field on m43 you would be at f14.8(3.9mm) and f21.6 (5.5mm).  So even though you stop down further the depth of field really won't go up, unless you push the f stop into areas where the lens starts to be quite soft.

Where in Indonesia are you going? 

Hopefully Raj ampat. Booked in 2019 and then we have had to move it every year since. It’s a pain because I can only go in the summer (I am a Professor, so linked to school holidays)! Anyways, hopefully soon. Going to Blue Heron in a few weeks and then Grand Cayman hopefully in May, so could try out systems then. Mostly reticent to upgrade if I’m doing it ‘just because’ and not for good solid reasons.

Also.. I am not stuck on Olympus, if there’s something else better/comparable I’m all for it

2 hours ago, Romany said:

Hopefully Raj ampat. Booked in 2019 and then we have had to move it every year since. It’s a pain because I can only go in the summer (I am a Professor, so linked to school holidays)! Anyways, hopefully soon. Going to Blue Heron in a few weeks and then Grand Cayman hopefully in May, so could try out systems then. Mostly reticent to upgrade if I’m doing it ‘just because’ and not for good solid reasons.

 

Also.. I am not stuck on Olympus, if there’s something else better/comparable I’m all for it

If you are cost constrained then there are not many other options as costs tend to go up with sensor size, so it would be Olympus or Panasonic realistically.  Also along with costs size for travelling increases. 

Raja Ampat should be great, personally I'd hate to go there without a fisheye for wide angle shots - what wide angle lens do you have for your RX-100?    I shoot with an EM-1 MkII and for me I think it's all I'll need - a second hand housing for this camera would be a great option I think.

I have an Inon UW1 currently. It’s not a the best by any means, but works well for what I’ve been doing and the portability is nice. 

3 hours ago, Romany said:

I have an Inon UW1 currently. It’s not a the best by any means, but works well for what I’ve been doing and the portability is nice. 

Not familiar with the UW1 - can't see anything n the INON website.  It's not the UWL-H100 is it?

Oh yes, sorry, was dashing from one thing to another. UWL-H100 

What I miss in the EPL10 vs M1-II or M5-III comparison  is the ease of use of the camera. (Starting to repeat myself from another thread, but it may be valuable to Romany).The OMD series cameras have an extra dial. In find it a lot easier to work with dedicated aperture and speed dials than to have to use buttons to change settings. Another advantage of the OMD cameras is the electronic viewfinder. Albeit expensive, it allows you to add an external viewfinder on your system in future. I myself used EPL3 and EPL7 cameras underwater and moved to a M5-III recently and plundered my bank account even further for a 45-degree external viewfinder.  Love the viewfinder after just a couple of dives.

29 minutes ago, Floris Bennema said:

plundered my bank account even further for a 45-degree external viewfinder.

Good call, Floris!

Good to hear that they work well with an EVF. I've used one with a DSLR since the early 2000s and can't imagine being able to capture images without it.

As before, thanks for continued suggestions and thoughts. Such a challenge to make these decisions without getting them underwater to try  Floris, which housing did you go with? 

Romany, I preferred the Nauticam housing for its ergonomics and large collection of dome ports (and, at the time . Assuming that AOI housings are about the same as the former Olympus housings there's a long thread about the choice. It's called  OMD - Olympus or Nauticam housing advice , in Photography Gear and Technique.

14 hours ago, Romany said:

Oh yes, sorry, was dashing from one thing to another. UWL-H100 

Right, it seems to give reasonable performance from what I have seen.  You could consider getting the dome for it at some point to get a 145° field.  There are some samples here, just scroll down till you find the shots with UWL-100:

https://www.housingcamera.com/blog/product-reviews/the-ultimate-wet-lens-sample-post

They were taken with a Sony, the performance of the m43 sensor should be better as the sensor is smaller.