Looking for advice - from TG4 to...

Hi,

I've been diving and photographing for a few years now. I am mostly interested in macro, and usually travel to remote places for that, many times backpacking for a month. On occasions I travel carry on with the complete diving plus photo gear in a small backpack -fins on hand!

I started photographing with an old canon A520. Then moved for a short period to a used RX100 with an intova minute PX21 strobe in a 3D printed arm, plus a couple of wet lenses. I was quite happy with photo quality,  but the intova flash was very unreliable -and soon stopped working at all. Also ergonomics were awful when shooting manual. Not wanting to increase my travel weight, I discarded purchasing a bigger strobe...

Then I switched to a used TG4 in an Oly housing, and I have been shooting with it for 5 years now. I mostly shoot with the built-in flash, and sometimes use a hand held torch. I am basically happy with the results, and it is a fun setup if you are going for macro.

However, I always feel that the image quality is a little deficient: the sensor is noisy and, when comparing back-to-back, image quality of the rx100 (with the intova strobe) was much better. 

I have considered adding a strobe to the TG4, but I don't think I will be improving the photos a lot. Also my focusing distance is so ridiculously small (see the hairy shrimp below) that clumsy lights will not fit. And there is the lack of manual control on the TG4, which may be fatal when adding additional light sources -or can be boring since there are not many things to play with.

I recently purchased a SF-L01 that I hope may double as night light and LED strobe. But I doubt this is the way to go.

So the question is... What should I do?

- add a strobe plus snoot for a having something new to play with the TG4?

- but if I had a strobe, I could go back to the rx100...

- or perhaps going for a new toy, compact or not: once I start to add strobes, travel friendliness is a ghost from the past... so I could try to get the best setup for my macro subjects.

- just keep my TG4 and enjoy what I do.

Any advice on this?

Below a few sample images from recent travels (jpg edited in the android phone -i shoot raw but never find the time for editing)

I few more, plus my diving+photo travel gear.

You could look at the EPL-10 in the AOI housing plus a small strobe like an INON S-2000/S-220.  Since you are macro-centric using the 60mm macro lens would be a good option.  It would be a pretty compact setup overall , the S-2000 (or the new replacement model S-220) really is quite small. 

7 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

You could look at the EPL-10 in the AOI housing plus a small strobe like an INON S-2000/S-220.  Since you are macro-centric using the 60mm macro lens would be a good option.  It would be a pretty compact setup overall , the S-2000 (or the new replacement model S-220) really is quite small. 

Yep, that would also be my recommendation.  I have finally decided to sell my EPL10 + Housing (with kit 14-42 lens) and Backscatter MF1 strobe and snoot. With a young and growing family I just don't get to dive for photography enough to justify keeping the camera. 

Thanks Chirs & Dan. That's an interesting direction and it could be the sweet spot I am looking for.

I am going to research a little on macro photos from EPL9/10, since I am not really sure how it ranks compared to other cameras. I assume the sensor is quite big so it should easily improve TG4 image quality.

Regarding inon s2000: I love it, but would prefer it works with 18650 batteries, since I would prefer not to have multiple chargers.

You’ve got some super images here, Litos. Unless the WP resolution is deceiving, it left me wondering what end product that you are seeking to achieve that you don’t have with these.  Do you mainly use them on screen? Or are you looking for biggish prints? If the former, they look pretty good!

And if you go bigger format you may well lose that super light travel pack that you currently have. 

As you’re into macro I could certainly see the benefit of a small strobe and snoot system. A few of your pics would look even better with tighter and perhaps more direct lighting- not that I’m trying to take anything away from them. I think they’re great!

6 hours ago, Litos said:

Thanks Chirs & Dan. That's an interesting direction and it could be the sweet spot I am looking for.

I am going to research a little on macro photos from EPL9/10, since I am not really sure how it ranks compared to other cameras. I assume the sensor is quite big so it should easily improve TG4 image quality.

Regarding inon s2000: I love it, but would prefer it works with 18650 batteries, since I would prefer not to have multiple chargers.

 

There's not a  lot to choose from in that case, if you want compact, basically it's the MF-2, a lot of people love them and Backscatter stands behind them when they break, but I'd kinda like a strobe not to break.

@Litos Awesome pictures!! IMHO If you're looking for better image quality, ie. sharper details, less noise, more vibrant colours, etc; I would recommend sticking with your TG4 and getting a small strobe as others have suggested. If you're interested in macro especially, it's hard to beat the TG!
If you're curious, I shoot with a TG6, and MF-1 strobe which uses 18650 batteries; you can see some of my images here.
And if you really wanted to keep the system compact, you could mount the strobe on top of your Oly housing on the cold shoe.

Hi Tim and Justin,

Thanks for the comments. The main problem I found with the TG4 is that I finish shooting a few mm from the target. I enjoy that A LOT, but there are many problems:

- no shy, fast targets. Shooting the hairy shrimp with that magnification was like 15 minutes of hunting. Even costasiellas seem like race horses at those distances.

- i don't have much space for adding extra light. I could try some kind of light ring, but there are not many options here; a snoot could work, and I need to research a little that option. On addition, I am not convinced about the ability of the TG4 for dealing with the strobes, since the lack of manual settings gives you small room for controlling it.

I have been diving with people shooting with the TG6/5/4 with additional lights (video or strobes), and I see no clear advantage for macro close ups. For sure WA and fish portraits results are much better.

Other problems I found are not the best AF (with dark/red/white targets specially, in some cases -but not always- video light may help here) and noise in the sensor. Probably TG6 has less noise because lower pixel count (even Olympus realized at some point that 16 MP on that sensor size was too much).

Just for comparison I put here a shoot with the RX100 using an inon UCL-165M67 diopter (cropped image). I have not been able to get such image quality with the TG4 so far -even when using some external flash with the TG4.

Again, is not that I am not happy, is just that I wonder how I could be happier.

Chris,

Is there any option for using the OM 90 mm macro with the EPL10?

I assume I could get similar magnification to the kind of shots I am doing with the TG4, but with some centimeters for adding and playing with the light.

3 minutes ago, Litos said:

Is there any option for using the OM 90 mm macro with the EPL10?

Unlikely. AOI makes a port for the OM 90mm, but it uses the OM mount rather than the PEN mount of their E-PL10 housing. You can get an adapter, but then you will have to mount the camera body into the housing without the lens and port attached, attach the lens to the camera through the front, then cover it with the port - and when you try to do this sequence in reverse to get your camera out, you'll find that the housing doesn't have a lens release button, and you're stuck.

Maybe consider E-M1 III and the matching AOI housing. You will still have to remove the port and lens to get the camera out, but at least this housing has a lens release button on the outside to facilitate this process, and you'll get much better autofocus in the package - E-M1 III has phase-detection, while E-PL10 is contrast-only.

Trapped for life in macro mode...  Not that bad!

Good to know if it's not an option even if the parts click together.

4 hours ago, Litos said:

Chris,

Is there any option for using the OM 90 mm macro with the EPL10?

I assume I could get similar magnification to the kind of shots I am doing with the TG4, but with some centimeters for adding and playing with the light.

I think with the EPL-10 it only the 60mm macro unless you want to do adapters with the large lens, this certainly gives you reasonable working distance down to life size and lighting will be easier.  No ability to activate the 2x switch from outside though.  You can add a diopter to get 2x with this system.  

The 60mm working distance is 88mm at 1:1 while the 90mm is reported to be 95mm, a modest improvement only.  The 60mm of course is more in line with your compactness requirement.

On 4/23/2023 at 4:56 AM, Litos said:

Hi Tim and Justin,

Thanks for the comments. The main problem I found with the TG4 is that I finish shooting a few mm from the target. I enjoy that A LOT, but there are many problems:

- no shy, fast targets. Shooting the hairy shrimp with that magnification was like 15 minutes of hunting. Even costasiellas seem like race horses at those distances.

- i don't have much space for adding extra light. I could try some kind of light ring, but there are not many options here; a snoot could work, and I need to research a little that option. On addition, I am not convinced about the ability of the TG4 for dealing with the strobes, since the lack of manual settings gives you small room for controlling it.

I have been diving with people shooting with the TG6/5/4 with additional lights (video or strobes), and I see no clear advantage for macro close ups. For sure WA and fish portraits results are much better.

Other problems I found are not the best AF (with dark/red/white targets specially, in some cases -but not always- video light may help here) and noise in the sensor. Probably TG6 has less noise because lower pixel count (even Olympus realized at some point that 16 MP on that sensor size was too much).

Just for comparison I put here a shoot with the RX100 using an inon UCL-165M67 diopter (cropped image). I have not been able to get such image quality with the TG4 so far -even when using some external flash with the TG4.

Again, is not that I am not happy, is just that I wonder how I could be happier.

 

I've been shooting strobes with my TG-5 for years. I've never had any luck with TTL, so if you end up going with strobes, you will probably want something with manual control. I use two Sea & Sea YS-01s and set the camera flash to a small fraction (1/32 or so). With the strobes on manual, they have controls for intensity, so you just need the flash to trigger them.

A focus light will definitely help with focus since it will increase the contrast, but yeah...ultimately the AF can be hit-and-miss on the TG. It likes to focus on light smudges on my housing or backscatter, especially when zoomed in for really tight macro.

I do know some people who shoot with a ring light - it is nice because it keeps your rig compact, but is not super useful for non-macro situations.

All of that said, I'm looking to upgrade from the TG-5 for similar reasons. I love macro shooting and have managed to get some pretty good results with the TG-5, but the total inability to control aperture while shooting macro leaves me with many out of focus shots. The TG-6 lets you use microscope mode in Aperture priority, but you still have the working distance problem, which is a big downside.

I've been researching the EPL-10 and it does seem like a great step up from the TG and a reasonable hop to more spendy micro four-thirds configurations. My thinking was that I would try to pick one up with as much used parts as I could find - this will give me an opportunity to learn and experiment with manual shooting, different lenses, etc. before deciding to drop bigger bucks on a higher-end camera. The beauty is that the lenses I would purchase are compatible with the likely next step, so I should be able to swap out the camera, housing, and whatever ports.

Unfortunately it seems there is not much second hand market for PL10/9... 

For the system I'd need the 60 mm macro lens, the camera body, and the housing with 60 mm port + focusing ring (arguably I could print the latter). There seems not to be a lot of used parts options around, specially for the housing.

Add a strobe/snoot and I am ready to go -i am thinking on AOI over inon because the 18650 and focusing light. I already own a couple of diopters I could stack for supermacro

1 hour ago, Litos said:

Unfortunately it seems there is not much second hand market for PL10/9... 

For the system I'd need the 60 mm macro lens, the camera body, and the housing with 60 mm port + focusing ring (arguably I could print the latter). There seems not to be a lot of used parts options around, specially for the housing.

Add a strobe/snoot and I am ready to go -i am thinking on AOI over inon because the 18650 and focusing light. I already own a couple of diopters I could stack for supermacro

 

I would suggest you don't need the focus gear, even on the bare lens it needs lots of turns to even notice a change in focus and it's even slower with the gearing inside the housing.  I have one for my Nauticam system and I used it once.

Have a look in the classified here , I have seen EPL-10 packages come up periodically.

Thanks for the hint. So no focus gear to be added.

It seems that today the limiting factor for building up the system is the camera: not much availability of these small beauties. 60 mm macro lens can be easily found (new) and the same stands for the housing. Getting a used rig will need some patience, and it will  probably be overpriced.

In the meantime, I have been lurking some macro photos with the epl10 rig and I am really impressed: they are the kind of photos I cannot do today with my TG4 (or i don't know how to do).

Going back to this, and after seeing the compelling advantages of the MFT system size-wise, I am weighting three options:

Option A) EPL9/10 + macro 60 mm in AOI housing.

Total damage will be 230 € for EPL9 body (used), and 400 € for macro lens (new). For housing the ideal option will be to get the new AOI version (AOI UH-EPL10R, about 620 € in Asia) that supports the camera TTL, and combine it with AOI Q1RC strobe (350 € in Asia). I have seen some buying options for the housing in Hong Kong or Singapore, but the RC trigger seems not to be currently available in US or EU sellers. I assume it is a matter of time, since AOI UH-EPL10 is discontinued; I am contacting sellers on the matter.

If no TTL option is available, AOI Q1 will be 100 € cheaper than the RC version.

Option B) EM1iii + macro 60 mm in AOI housing (available in EU/US with TTL support). Similar to the previous option, but with a slightly higher price for the housing, and with a bigger and more expensive camera body.

Compared with the previous option I need to add +500 € for the housing price difference, and +1000 € for the camera body (used). So I think that the difference between these two options will be around 1500 €.

I expect a number of advantages, mostly for land-based photography projects as the possibility to shoot from the computer for macro photo stacking projects, and better focusing for bird and nature photography.

Option C) An intermediate option is EM10iv, and AOI housing (readily available in Asia, and with TTL support for the same price as the EPL one). However, it is unclear to me if it will be suited for some birding photography and the los.

Marginal cost when compared with EPL option would be around +800 €, because of the camera.

[Option D) Finally… I already own a Micro Nikkor 105 VR. I don’t know if any cheap, small size option exists for putting this lens underwater…]

Summarizing: (A)EPL approx 1600 €; (B) M1iii 3100 €; (C) EM10iv 2400 €.

The question is which kind of photos I will be restricted to for the different options.

I just went through a similar exercise with similar options (I looked at the E-M5 III as well - similarly large jump in $$). The extra costs just kept adding up - not only are the housing and body more expensive, but you also need a $300 flash trigger for the non-EPL options and a lens + port to even get started.

One thing to consider if you plan to use the camera for land-based photography is the OM-D line is weatherproofed, while the PEN line is not. Obviously neither will survive a bath, but the OM-Ds should survive a splash or wet conditions better. You might want to look for some reviews to see the extent to which this is true. I believe I saw that the lenses are interchangeable between these options as well, which helped my decision - if I decide to upgrade later, I can save the cost of lenses at least.

I bought a used EPL-9 (no reason to go with the 10) and then was chatting with Backscatter before placing the order and they informed me their housing is discontinued and out of stock. Their website still does not reflect this! I managed to find one on Reef Photo, but I also assume we're in a weird in-between period where they're trying to get rid of the AOI UH-EPL10 inventory before stocking the AOI UH-EPL10R.

My conclusion through all of this is that the EPL is a good step in the door to MFT, so the setup I went with is EPL-9 (used) + AOI housing (new, still waiting for it to arrive) + 60mm macro lens (used). I'll probably grab a flip diopter, because I love me some macro. I've got the Backscatter M52 wide angle, so I can at least start with that + 14-42mm for WA. I've already got a tray + 2x Sea & Sea YS-01 strobes to go with it. My housing should be arriving this week, so I will report back!

@webcubus : same path, same conclusions. A used EPL9 it's on its way. Also a 60 mm macro. If I find an attractive housing in the next weeks, i will go for it -and change camera if needed, as the EPL is the cheaper element in the equation.

(just in case you are interested, I got a 28 eur M67 wet lens adaptor on SEACAM AliExpress store. I have a couple of wet diopters I want to play with)