Costs and benefits: D500 -> Mirrorless ( A1, Z8, A7RV )

(prices in GBP, updated with some extras) 

I've done some maths and I'm seriously considering going over to Mirrorless now that we have stacked sensors. My reason for upgrading in general is *mostly* topside wildlife action, as I don't believe the benefits underwater are that vast. Having said that, I believe some mirrorless sytems will be a bit smaller underwater, like the Sony compared to the Nikon.

Ultimately, for each system, moving from D500 to the following has pros and cons, as far as I see them:

A1: decent battery life, can probably help with some tracking underwater, some replacement of lenses but overall macro and wide are possible. Stacked sensor and amazing EVF should lead to a great shooting option. Topside its seen to be a good option for wildlife action.

A7RV: decent battery life, can probably help with some tracking underwater, some replacement of lenses but overall macro and wide are possible. Good EVF should lead to a great shooting option, but not stacked and will lead to blockouts. Most affordable swap overall. Topside its seen to be a good option for wildlife action.

Z8: poor battery life, might help with some tracking underwater but general consensus is that it is worse than Sony. Worst EVF in terms of resolution but apparently really bright with high refresh rate, stacked sensor with no blackouts, so should be a great shooting option. Topside it's seen to be a decent option for wildlife action as tracking isn't as good as sony?

Costs ranked to swap (lowest to highest): A7RV, Z8, A1

IQ: I'm assuming with the right set up, they'll be very similar, with A1 having higher resolution, but I wouldn't really need 60MP - I think I'd be in trouble if I needed that much to crop.

Whilst I know Z8 underwater is a theoretical concept - we can lean on experiences from the Z9 as it's practically the same camera sans grip.

I wanted to see what people's thoughts were on this? Has anyone shot both Sony A7RV / A1 and Nikon Z9?

Any reason you're only looking at full-frame? If you're comparing a DX DSLR to stacked-sensor mirrorless, then OM-1 and X-H2S should probably be included.

I had a really hard time finding A1s used for less than 5800, so I’d add another bit to that column 

I'd also add that the prices of the Nauticam housings in your spreadsheet are lower than I am aware of by about 1k each.  Plus flash trigger and vacuum valve (if not transferable from your current setup... which the flash trigger unlikely will be) also add to the cost and can be another 500 (easily).  The Nikon Z8 has a lot of potential and I am looking forward to some tests of it underwater as the housings become available.  

35 minutes ago, ColdDarkDiver said:

IPlus flash trigger and vacuum valve (if not transferable from your current setup... which the flash trigger unlikely will be) also add to the cost and can be another 500 (easily).

Interesting, with the D500 and the Z8 housings these come as standard, whereas, as you say, with Sony they're not.

But the housings are priced roughly right, for the UK - they're definitely not off by £1k.

1 hour ago, ScottyR said:

I had a really hard time finding A1s used for less than 5800, so I’d add another bit to that column 

https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/product/sony-a1/sku-1929620?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=UK|Google|Buy|Shopping|Smart|UK&gclid=CjwKCAjwx_eiBhBGEiwA15gLN2Va2o3qOTZoKuR8K-8P5pz0pMAdZsvkzBvFGdKTZqPsMIi1SODtYRoCv9oQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

8 minutes ago, sinetwo said:

Interesting, with the D500 and the Z8 housings these come as standard, whereas, as you say, with Sony they're not.

But the housings are priced roughly right, for the UK - they're definitely not off by £1k.

Am not aware of any new housing that comes with a vacuum valve or trigger.

If you have those items they may be compatible

19 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Am not aware of any new housing that comes with a vacuum valve or trigger.

If you have those items they may be compatible

https://www.nauticam.com/products/na-z8-underwater-housing-for-the-nikon-z8-camera

1. The NA-Z8 comes with the manual LED Flash Trigger (#26350) pre-installed. An optional TTL LED Flash Trigger is available (#26308).

2. The Nauticam vacuum check and leak detection system is shipped with NA-Z8 as standard equipment. Combined with an accessory vacuum valve (PN 25624), this monitoring system provides constant updates on the water tight and safe-to-dive status of the housing. 

1 hour ago, ScottyR said:

I had a really hard time finding A1s used for less than 5800, so I’d add another bit to that column 

The numbers make more sense if you assume they're UK pounds rather than US dollars or euros.

4 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

The numbers make more sense if you assume they're UK pounds rather than US dollars or euros.

I realise that wasn't in the spreadsheet now, thanks for correcting. 

https://www.nauticam.com/products/na-z8-underwater-housing-for-the-nikon-z8-camera
1. The NA-Z8 comes with the manual LED Flash Trigger (#26350) pre-installed. An optional TTL LED Flash Trigger is available (#26308).
2. The Nauticam vacuum check and leak detection system is shipped with NA-Z8 as standard equipment. Combined with an accessory vacuum valve (PN 25624), this monitoring system provides constant updates on the water tight and safe-to-dive status of the housing. 
 
 

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

2 means you need to buy the valve like all others

Ah true, at least it has the trigger included - original post updated.

50 minutes ago, sinetwo said:

Ah true, at least it has the trigger included

I think if you are interested in topside wildlife burst rate and lack of rolling shutter when using electronic shutter may be of importance, it is for me. In which case the A7R5 is not really an option, this camera is more for landscape, architecture and casual shooting

I have not seen proper reviews of the Z8 shooting birds to see if the autofocus is up to scratch but as Nikon shooter it may be easier to transition to that and you may be able to use any full frame lenses you own.

The A1 costs around 1.5x the Z8 here the benefits are higher burst rate and flash sync speed and it is a smaller camera but if those things matter little to you the Z8 may be very viable.

You may want to wait for mirrorless comparison to perform their bird test or someone else that is not a Nikon ambassador to provide soe evidence and then make a decision.

The Sony full frame system is the most compact for underwater use as there are really small lenses that work behind the WWL-1 and has a smaller port system N100 however this is not true the moment you go into rectilinear lenses or look at the size of a macro lens.

I have photos of all my rig set ups on my blog so you can get an idea of what is involved.

56 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I think if you are interested in topside wildlife burst rate and lack of rolling shutter when using electronic shutter may be of importance, it is for me. In which case the A7R5 is not really an option, this camera is more for landscape, architecture and casual shooting

Yep! I think with the relatively low burst and rolling shutter issues, the A7RV isn't very desirable. I wanted to see comparatively if the savings were well worth the tradeoffs - probably underwater, probably not top side wildlife (action).

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I have not seen proper reviews of the Z8 shooting birds to see if the autofocus is up to scratch but as Nikon shooter it may be easier to transition to that and you may be able to use any full frame lenses you own.

 The A1 costs around 1.5x the Z8 here the benefits are higher burst rate and flash sync speed and it is a smaller camera but if those things matter little to you the Z8 may be very viable.

Agreed, I think when it goes past 20fps the use case for me is negligible, even with the D500 I get most of the action shots I want. However Nikon's introduced JPEG pre-release (similar to Olympus' pro capture). I suspect it would only be a software update for Sony to introduce something like this, but I would guess from a business standpoint, this feature could sell a future camera to Sony users - gatekeeping this feature for new hardware is annoying, but I get it. I can't see myself using it too often, but getting action shots top side, pre-release would be invaluable, even with JPEG - that's one of the reasons I started looking at Olympus a while back.

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 You may want to wait for mirrorless comparison to perform their bird test or someone else that is not a Nikon ambassador to provide soe evidence and then make a decision.

Yep, at the moment it feels like all the reviews (apart from Jared Polin's quite horrendous review) has been favouring Nikon - I'm sure there were clauses for most of the early access users of the Z8. I trust Steve Perry, who did a Q&A on the Z8, comparing it to Z9/A1, and I've found him to be reasonably unbiased. With the latest firmware update, it seems like Nikon is able to compete head to head with A1, as long as the right AF settings are being used. 

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 The Sony full frame system is the most compact for underwater use as there are really small lenses that work behind the WWL-1 and has a smaller port system N100 however this is not true the moment you go into rectilinear lenses or look at the size of a macro lens.

Luckily for me, I rarely do rectilinear (I try to limit travel equipment) so I'd usually go with a fisheye, 60mm and 105mm with my current set up. But with a Sony set up I can appreciate you'd only have the 90mm macro, and could get creative with a smaller zoom/fixed + conversion lens, or go with a standard dome setup.

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 I have photos of all my rig set ups on my blog so you can get an idea of what is involved.

Nice, I'll have a look! Rig size is actually quite important to me as already with the D500, 2 strobes and a few lenses + mini dome, I am pushing it with my carry on. Having said that, the flash trigger does add an annoying bit of bulk to the A1 housing which I wish was as snug as possible, similar to the D500 housing.

Comparing housing dimensions, which for me will be the lowest common denominator whilst travelling. The width measurements includes the handles (which can obviously be removed). Sizes in order of smallest to largest.

• A1 Nauticam dimensions: 340mm (W) × 169mm (H) × 125mm (D)
• D500 Nauticam dimensions: 354mm (W) × 188mm (H) × 134mm (D) [current]
• D850 Nauticam dimensions: 360mm(W) x 195mm(H) x 135mm(D) [for comparison against Z8]
• Z8 Nauticam dimensions: 365mm(W) x 204mm(H) x 163mm(D)

This is definitely something to consider, as I'm already at peak packing optimisation with my D500 so I couldn't really go much bigger.

If size matters the only full frame system is Sony. I am sure many will disagree but this is what I found and the reason why I got one

With the A1 you can get also incredible performance and small size however many users will be happy with the A7 IV

Thank you for the cost analysis, you have convinced me to keep on diving with my Nikon D500 in a Subal housing.

5 hours ago, Kraken de Mabini said:

Thank you for the cost analysis, you have convinced me to keep on diving with my Nikon D500 in a Subal housing.

As a result of my relentless "I need to justify a new toy", I have also decide to keep diving my D500 in a Nauticam housing.

Would I get better wildlife action pictures topside? Absolutely. Would I get better photos underwater? Not at all. Cost? £6k+.

5 hours ago, sinetwo said:

As a result of my relentless "I need to justify a new toy", I have also decide to keep diving my D500 in a Nauticam housing.

Would I get better wildlife action pictures topside? Absolutely. Would I get better photos underwater? Not at all. Cost? £6k+.

Actually no you will get better images underwater. The D500 is a pretty dated 20 megapixel camera. Yes it is very versatile and effective but lacks in resolution and dynamic range compared to your other models evaluated.

Any camera replacement comes at cost

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

Actually no you will get better images underwater. The D500 is a pretty dated 20 megapixel camera. Yes it is very versatile and effective but lacks in resolution and dynamic range compared to your other models evaluated.

Any camera replacement comes at cost

I'm not arguing that you can have better resolution and dynamic range as well, but whether that is useful and worth the upgrade cost is an individual decision.  The D500 has 0.8 EV less dynamic range than D850/A7IV or about the same range at one step lower ISO if you believe DXO sensor testing, nice to have but possibly not essential underwater.  Increased resolution is nice but only really pays benefits for certain usage like large prints and ability to crop. 

Cameras are so good these days that any improvements for still images are relatively modest for the average user.  Video is an entirely different story of course. 

1 hour ago, ChrisRoss said:

I'm not arguing that you can have better resolution and dynamic range as well, but whether that is useful and worth the upgrade cost is an individual decision.  The D500 has 0.8 EV less dynamic range than D850/A7IV or about the same range at one step lower ISO if you believe DXO sensor testing, nice to have but possibly not essential underwater.  Increased resolution is nice but only really pays benefits for certain usage like large prints and ability to crop. 

Cameras are so good these days that any improvements for still images are relatively modest for the average user.  Video is an entirely different story of course. 

The decision to buy a new camera is subjective however to say that the D500 is in the same league of the other options and will produce identical or even similar idea is very arguable in fact incorrect

Any time the op will 'upgrade' or  actually replace his camera will be faced with switching costs. The D500 was not a cheap camera when introduced considering it is APSC

The DSLR housing in general are more expensive than Sony mirrorless 

Eventually the op camera shutter will fail and will need to consider again if repairing the camera or buying a new one

I think changing camera every 3 year is a bit hasty, 5 about right, more just a case of sweating your assets but you can't say the performance is the same