Time for upgrading my Sony setup?

Hello everybody,

My current (and quite old) setup is :

·         Sony Nex 5N

·         Nauticam housing

·         Sony 16mm 2.8 + VCL-ECF1 Fisheye adapter + 4,33 dome port

·         Sony 10-18mm + Nauticam 7’’ dome port

·         2 sea and sea YS 110a strobes

I really like the size of the setup with Sony 16mm 2.8 + VCL-ECF1 Fisheye adapter + 4,33 dome port => it is the setup that I use the most but very tricky for split shots and photos sharpness is not very good.

During my last trip, I had a problem with the housing trigger : when I press the trigger button, it stays pushed (probably a spring problem…)… => See post : 

View archived post in: Nauticam trigger button problem (Sony new 5n)

Note : my main camera is a sony A7III.

So, I’m considering upgrading my setup.

What type of photo do I need : only big animals (Dolphins, Whales , sharks …) and split shots. So, I often use the housing for snorkeling.

So, here are the possibilities that I have in mind :

1.       Try to fix my actual housing and try to find a better wide angle lens. Do you have lens recommendation? It seems that the best lens would be the tokina 10-17 with MC 11 adapter but it would also need a specific dome port… I also noticed that there is a VCL-ECF2 adapter : is it really better than VCL-ECF1?

2.       Try to find a used Nauticam housing with a better camera than the sony nex 5N. In order to keep my domes, I undertood that it should be an APS sony camera. For example a sony a6500. In this case, I would have a same “lens selection” issue that above and even quite old housing are expensive.

3.       Buy a Seafrogs housing for my main camera (Sony A7III). I saw that they sell a 6’’ glass dome port :

a.        Is there someone who tried or used this housing and/or sea frogs dome ports? 

b.       I understood that TTL would not work even with the strobe trigger sold by seafrog. Could you confirm this point?

c.       Which lens would you recommend for a sony full frame camera? Sony 16-35 f4 ? Canon 8-15 fisheye with metabones? And to be associated with which dome ports?

4.       buy a seafrogs housing and another camera that would work with TTL. What would you recommend? Sony A6500? In the seafrogs port chart, I don’t see a dome port that would work with tokina 10-17. 

Thank you very much for your help.

If you are looking for big animals and doing splits a Canon 8-15 or Tokina 10-17mm  on metabones might be your best option, you could use it with a 4.33" dome as specified in the Sony N85 Nauticam port chart, the Canon lens would use 20mm more extension than the Tokina.  That would work for big animals, but be tricky for splits.   It's probably your cheapest option. 

You would need an N120 version of the 4.33" dome though to go with the fisheye.  The zoom is operated by the knob on the 50mm N85-N120 extension and uses the zoom gear specified for the Canon N120 housings for the respective lenses.  So you would buy lens, gear , N85-N120 adapter, metabones adapter and dome.

You might be able to use your 7" dome port with the 10-17mm for splits but it has a fair bit of extension built in and might vignette and you would need a custom zoom gear to use with the housing zoom knob.  If you go this path you could try the 10-17 first before looking for a different dome.  Or you could revert to the 10-18 for splits.

The Canon 8-15 would be more future proof because if you just stay with your Nex5 for now you could then upgrade to either A6500 or similar or you could go full frame and still keep your dome.

However -what you need to consider is that the 10-17 and 8-15 provide zoom.  On full frame you need to use the 8-15 and you effectively don't have zoom any more only 8mm circular or 15mm full frame fisheye.  15mm full frame fisheye is probably fine for whales but may be a bit short for smaller big animals like sharks which may not approach you close enough.  If you find you need more reach you can use a 1.4x with the 8-15 and you then get zoom from 15-21mm (about 11-15 mm on zoom ring x 1.4)

On the sea frogs the 6" dome is probably a bit small for splits.  16-35 really needs a bigger dome than 6"  arguably it's maybe not wide enough for whales?

On the issue of TTL - typically with big animals like whales there's no strobes involved.  TTL may or may not be a good solution and most people revert to manual exposure for wide angle work.  Splits may be a unique challenge as the brightness difference between air and water is relatively extreme and is probably the least likely scenario to work well with TTL. 

If you insist on TTL I believe UW Technics will sell you a TTL trigger for sea frogs.

Thank you very much ChrisRoss for all the informations provided.

Do you know which dome port is recommended (if any) for the canon 8-15 with a sony a7iii in a seafrogs housing?

For split shots, i also saw pretty convincing pictures with the following setup : sony A7iii + 28mm f2 +fisheye converter in a seafrogs housing with 6" acrylic dome port.. On instagram : moreno_cavalli_photographer

For TTL, i had in mind that it would be useful during a shark dive for example : if the position of a shark moves quickly (sun behind, sun in the frame, shark passing over the head of the diver), i fear to have not  enough time to setup the good amount of power on the strobes...

1 hour ago, kalani said:

For TTL, i had in mind that it would be useful during a shark dive for example : if the position of a shark moves quickly (sun behind, sun in the frame, shark passing over the head of the diver), i fear to have not  enough time to setup the good amount of power on the strobes...

Hi kalani

As Chris has suggested, by and large, TTL isn't great for these types of images.

If you're in relatively shallow water, or say on the surface snorkelling, strobes are not really necessary. Deeper down, the strobe setting doesn't make a massive amount of difference once you have it set about right - unless, of course, you are shooting directly into the sun.

Shooting strobes manually is much easier than maybe you think.  It can be useful on macro shots for sure, but on wide-angle, big fish, I'd say not so much. 

Having been a big TTL fan with a Nikon D300 system years ago, I now shoot pretty much only Manual and rarely find the images are horribly exposed and cannot be retrieved through a bit of post-production exposure adjustment.

10 hours ago, kalani said:

Do you know which dome port is recommended (if any) for the canon 8-15 with a sony a7iii in a seafrogs housing?

For split shots, i also saw pretty convincing pictures with the following setup : sony A7iii + 28mm f2 +fisheye converter in a seafrogs housing with 6" acrylic dome port.. On instagram : moreno_cavalli_photographer

 

Sea Frogs as far as I know have a one size fits all dome.  As far as the fisheye converter goes, you'll certainly get images but the reviews of them on land are relatively ordinary and things don't improve behind a dome.  On Instagram almost anything looks good with the small image  size.  If that's your only use then it's probably fine.  By the time you buy the 28mm f2 and the converter you probably have enough for a second hand copy of the Canon 8-15.  I think you'd get much better flexibility out of a 10-17 or 8-15 with a Sony APS-C.

Thank you again for all the informations.

So, I sent a message to sea frogs and here are the informations that I got :

For the Sony A7III with canon 8-15, the only dome port that will work is the 6'' V10. This dome port exists in acrylic or in glass (available in about a month). It has been tested with sigma MC 11 and not with metabones V.

No information in the sea frogs port chart concerning the canon 8-15 or Tokina 10-17 with Sony APSC cameras.

So, it seems that , for the moment, my choice would go with the following setup :

- Sony A7III

- Sigma MC11. Does it work better or the same as a metabones V ?

- Canon 8-15 fisheye. No zoom gear available but I will probably stick with 15mm full frame fisheye.

- Seafrogs housing

- 6" dome port : Do you think that the glass version is a good idea? 6'' is maybe a little bit small for split shots but it can be a good compromise compared to a 8" that would be bulkier. 6" is a "normal" size with the canon 8-15?

- double trays

- Flash trigger for fiber optics

- 2 fiber optics cable + 2 sea and sea YS 110a strobes

No TTL. So I will have to learn how to use strobes manually. From my understanding, as a start point : shutter at 1/160th (maximum sync speed with Sony), iso 200 and then play with aperture to expose correctly the background. When the background exposure is ok, then play with the power of the strobes. Is that a good approach ?

Overall, what do you think of this setup? 

Thank you again for your help.

Perhaps, though as you say no zoom gear - that's fine as long as a full frame fisheye is good enough for you - for big animals it's probably only fine for whales, unless you are on a shark feeding dive, many sharks won't approach you close enough.  If that's the case you would be switching to a rectilinear lens like a 16-35 or similar and needing a bigger dome ideally.  If you have a system that can take the 10-17 or APS-C with 8-15 and a zoom control then you can zoom in about 1.5x or so which is possibly enough.  Alternatively if you are set on full frame a housing with zoom capability would allow you to add a 1.4x to the 8-15 and zoom between 11mm and 15mm .  Otherwise you could find you are lacking reach.

Yes. That s true.

the v10 6 ‘’ dome port is also compatible with the sony 16-35 f4 and it comes with a zoom gear.

so what are the cons to have a 6’´ dome port with a rectilinear 16-35? Soft corners ?

 Thank you 

2 hours ago, kalani said:

Soft corners ?

Yep. My experience with a 16-35 is that even a 9" dome can have soft corners.

10 hours ago, kalani said:

Yes. That s true.

the v10 6 ‘’ dome port is also compatible with the sony 16-35 f4 and it comes with a zoom gear.

so what are the cons to have a 6’´ dome port with a rectilinear 16-35? Soft corners ?

 

 Thank you 

Yes, corners will be quite soft in a 6" dome, even an 8" dome.   You can get away with that to a certain extent in blue water, however I think you'd find the soft area on the 6" dome quite extensive. 

If it were me (Unless you have a really compelling reason to go full frame)  I'd get better glass for your APS-C setup.  Just because you already have a camera on land doesn't mean it's the best option for taking UW.  APS-C is is good enough for most purposes.  I think your current housing is quite fixable with a little effort.   In a few years you could look at upgrading to the latest APS_C offering and it would just be camera and housing at that point or you could keep your eye out for second deal and keep shooting while you are waiting. 

Well, that is a possibility but it will be very expensive for still having a 10 year old camera...

In fact, a better glass means Tokina 10-17 with a metabones adapter -> cheaper than the canon 8-15 :-) Let's say around 400 euros for the lens and adapter

But fixing my actual housing means that I will have to send it to a professional in order to be completely checked -> it will cost, at least, 450-500 Euros.

Tokina 10-17 means also a new dome : Nauticam 18804 4,33 dome which costs around 700 euros new. I would also need a nauticam zoom gear (at least 150 euros) and a N85 to N120 adapter (more than 500 euros ???).

So, we are around 2200 Euros to stick with a nex 5N and I will have to take my existing 7'' dome port for split shots...

Pros : Nauticam quality. TTL compatibility. 10-17 versatility underwater.

Cons : really expensive for a setup based on a Sony nex 5N. 2 dome ports to take with me. I'm also not sure if the tokina 10-17 will focus well with a metabones (or MC 11) with an old camera like the nex 5N

Concerning the A7III possibility, I will have to buy :

- Canon 8-15 + sigma MC 11 : around 700 Euros

- Seafrogs housing + 6'' glass dome port + zoom gear for Sony 16-35 : around 900 (much cheaper if I take the acrylic dome)

- Sony 16-35 f4 : around 500 euros

So a total of : 2100 Euros

Pros : only one housing and dome. Better lenses (that I could also use on land). Much better camera (with 4k video) . If I decide to upgrade my main camera for another Sony full frame, I will probably have to buy only a new housing.

Cons : soft corners with the 16-35. 6'' dome vs my actual 7'' dome for split shots... Seafrogs sells also a 8'' acrylic dome port for 275 dollars but it seems very big, so not convenient to travel with.

Conclusion: I'm lost lol 

38 minutes ago, kalani said:

Conclusion: I'm lost lol 

 Ain't it like that so often with u/w photography?

How about the approach of: what would give me the most pleasure and fewest regrets? 

6 minutes ago, kalani said:

Well, that is a possibility but it will be very expensive for still having a 10 year old camera...

In fact, a better glass means Tokina 10-17 with a metabones adapter -> cheaper than the canon 8-15 :-) Let's say around 400 euros for the lens and adapter

But fixing my actual housing means that I will have to send it to a professional in order to be completely checked -> it will cost, at least, 450-500 Euros.

Tokina 10-17 means also a new dome : Nauticam 18804 4,33 dome which costs around 700 euros new. I would also need a nauticam zoom gear (at least 150 euros) and a N85 to N120 adapter (more than 500 euros ???).

So, we are around 2200 Euros to stick with a nex 5N and I will have to take my existing 7'' dome port for split shots...

Pros : Nauticam quality. TTL compatibility. 10-17 versatility underwater.

Cons : really expensive for a setup based on a Sony nex 5N. 2 dome ports to take with me. I'm also not sure if the tokina 10-17 will focus well with a metabones (or MC 11) with an old camera like the nex 5N

 

Concerning the A7III possibility, I will have to buy :

- Canon 8-15 + sigma MC 11 : around 700 Euros

- Seafrogs housing + 6'' glass dome port + zoom gear for Sony 16-35 : around 900 (much cheaper if I take the acrylic dome)

- Sony 16-35 f4 : around 500 euros

So a total of : 2100 Euros

Pros : only one housing and dome. Better lenses (that I could also use on land). Much better camera (with 4k video) . If I decide to upgrade my main camera for another Sony full frame, I will probably have to buy only a new housing.

Cons : soft corners with the 16-35. 6'' dome vs my actual 7'' dome for split shots... Seafrogs sells also a 8'' acrylic dome port for 275 dollars but it seems very big, so not convenient to travel with.

Conclusion: I'm lost lol 

 

Is the only problem with your current housing the spring - I'm sure that would be an easy fix.  You could always get that going and wait for second hand items to appear.  Unfortunately the Nauticam extensions and ports are very pricey! 

Hi Kalani,

My personal opinion to your question is, that you should first decide whether to change to FF or stay with APS-C. The other decisions are a consequence...

#1.: Stay with APS-C: keep Nex-5 and upgrade the optics (e.g. Tokina). Later, when a new Sony APS-C camera appears that is really worth the upgrade, change camera&housing (or go for used A6500 with housing now)...

#2.: Go FF: a used Nauticam housing for A7III should be available second hand for not so much money. Start with this is and upgrade optics as needed and funds become available...

After using two cheap plastic housings, I am, at present, using the third generation of Nauticam housings. I never will downgrade to Meike/Seafrogs etc. again. In midterms, it is often required to change the entire port system, when you change to another camera, and then these housings are not so cheap anymore...

Wolfgang

Thanks again for your help.

I don't feel the need to go full frame but as far as I already have a Sony A7III, I thought that it could be a good opportunity to use underwater without having to buy another camera.

Concerning plastic housing, as I don't dive very often, I don't know if it is really a problem unless a Sony a7III in a plastic housing and glass dome port will lead to a downgrade in image quality compared to a Sony nex5n with Nauticam housing and port...

To answer TimG, recently, what I enjoyed the most was ... snorkeling for a simple reason : I started to go in the water with my 5 year old daughter and really enjoyed sharing moments with her and show her fishes and turtles :-) 

1.

2. 

3. I was not really happy with soft corners but it's OK :

4. And the minimum focus distance was not enough 

Overall, I got some decent pictures (even with my trigger button that needed to be pulled by hand each time...):

5.

6.

7.

8.

You got some super pics for sure - and soft corners in those types of images, where there is a good bit of "blue", are not a problem. 

13 hours ago, TimG said:

You got some super pics for sure - and soft corners in those types of images, where there is a good bit of "blue", are not a problem. 

Agree, if those are the types of pics you like to take the 10-18 with 7" dome is a pretty good choice probably and your trigger button issue really should be simple to fix.