NIKON Matrix TTL & Strobe Compatability

Does anyone have information regarding how the following strobes are treated by NIKON cameras namley the F80/F90/F100, read on........

I recently contacted Sea & Sea to find out What flash metering mode My F80 will use when a YS series strobe is attached and turned to TTL.

The result was ... even if the camera's meter was set to matrix, that the flash meter will default to centre weighted when a ys series strobe is attached.

What strobes on the Market, Past and presnet allow my F80's Flash to work in Matrix mode TTL.. so for example when i select the far right focus piont, the flash TTL will also be metered from that piont.

Do Nikonos Sb-105's enable this or Ike's ???

forgive my breif discriptions.......

I know this was a FILM camera question, its just somthing that is on my mind and needs answering..

kind regards

craig

Matrix mode with a Nikon land flash will not do what you suggest - it will do balanced fill flash. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that "spot" TTL metering is available on any Nikon camera. The TTL meters are not the same as the focus/metering points that you see in the viewfinder.

I'm not sure whether matrix fill flash is supported by the external strobes, but I think it is utilized when the camera is in A or P mode, meter set to matrix, and the strobes in TTL.

My understanding is that matrix metering refers to how ambient light is sensed and interpreted by the camera’s algorithms using 1000 some odd light sensors (in more recent cameras) for setting the shutter speed and aperture and not the flash. It was a lot simpler when one had a choice of center-weighted, center-weighted, and center-weighted!

A three-decade plus Nikon user and still learning!

Tom

Hi tom, i know what you mean, but they insist on putting all these functions into our cameras i want to explore them

the question i was asking ref: above comments was not about SPOT TTL BIAS

even when using the flash these cameras can use a reduced segment matrix meter that will Bia's to the area (segment) which is near to the focusing point...

so nikon tell me thus TTL metering is ZONED, (canon term) over sections of your 12 segment matrix... but you need to use particular guns...

My Old canon EOS 5 was split into 3 vertical zones, dependant on which focus sensor you selected out of the five it would Bia's its TTL to an appropriate zone.

now i know that when using these cameras F80 F90 F100 in MANUAL MODE it goes straight to centre weighted TTL, that has been confirmed by NIKON

the others A, S P modes suppose to use TTL BALANCED FILL FLASH, but sea and sea told me that even in those modes due to their strobes it still went to centre weighted....mmmmmm i'm just not sure about that, maybe they thought i was indeed using the camera in manual mode.

i do when shooting macro but i tend to use Aperture priority when WA

regards

craig

keep the answers coming please.

My understanding is that most non-Nikon brand flashes will only do standard CW TTL flash regardless of mode (PSAM) on the F80. Only flashes made by Nikon and introduced after the SB-25 will perform 3D matrix balanced TTL fill flash. There appear to have been a couple of topside third party units that have decoded the Nikonese (notably Sigma and Metz) in their flash units.

In terms of the results in actual shooting, I think there are a number of things worth noting. Despite the fact that the Nikon F80 has 30 000 scenes against which it can compare a shot to figure out correct exposure, I don't think many of these were shot underwater.

The occassions where you want to use balanced fill flash (rather than flash key) tend to be wide angle photographs with a foreground balanced against a blue-water background. Regardless of what flash system is used, TTL fill-flash performs poorly UW (whether it is 3D matrix balanced or not) and generally requires complicated flash exposure compensation values to be dialed in - taking into account subject reflectance, water clarity and various other difficult to measure variables. When you perform flash-key shots (as in macro exposures where no ambient light is contributing to the exposure), I can see no difference between exposures made with 3D Matrix Balanced TTL or standard TTL, regardless of whether the subject is off centre or not.

Given this information, it seems that the value of searching out and finding a 3D matrix balanced fill flash and using it underwater is limited at best, and probably not worth the effort.

Bottom line is, standard TTL flash works very well for UW macro photography (frequently requiring no exposure compensation at all). Any flash (whether 3D matrix balanced/spot meter biased or whatever) performs poorly when used UW for balanced fill WA. It hardly seems worth worrying about. Manual flash for WA just isn't that difficult. In most cases, it is simpler than figuring out the appropriate compensation value for TTL. Even if you're unsure, a couple of flash exp brackets either side of your guessed subject distance/exposure value will normally nail it. Perhaps it might be more use to find a fast recycling flash so you can shoot those brackets in quick succession!

According to this table on Nikonlinks the Nikonos SB-105 does provide matrix balanced fill flash with the Nikonos RS which shares essentially the same matrix flash exposure architecture as all Nikon cameras post the F601 and therefore including the F80.

Having used the F80 and the SB105 in 3D Matrix Balanced Fill Flash (3DMBFF) mode underwater, this re-inforces my view that when used UW, the F80 combined with a 3DMBFF compatible flash is of no greater value than a standard flash. More important considerations are angle of coverage, recycle time, flash output flexibility (ie. 1/2, 1/4 output etc), size and ease of use underwater. I would consider all of these things before I started worrying about whether a flash would be compatible with 3DMBFF UW.

The matrix metering aspect of the RS refers to ambient light only, the TTL sensor looks at the center. If there is enough ambient light the strobe output is set to provide a weak fill flash (when the shutter speed dial is set to 'A'), otherwise it switches to TTL and reads the light from the strobe during the exposure. The analogue display indicates which way it is going to go.

Tom

Hmmm, you may be right Tom, but this Nikon webpage and this review of the camera indicate that the Nikonos RS performs balanced fill flash which I took to mean matrix balanced...

Seems like B&H Photo also market the SB-104 as being able to provide matrix balanced fill on the Nikonos RS... But that doesn't mean it's true.

The problem is all the jargon! A list of specifications that are jargon may not be too useful. Nikon does call it matrix but your definition of it may vary and with newer cameras the definition may not be the same as before. The late Jim Church's book has the best explanation of how the thing actually works. BTW I have been using the RS for over a decade now. I use the A mode a lot with the 50mm but go for manual with the 13mm at a small fraction output setting but mostly with the SS200 though I have the SB104 too.

Tom

The problem is all the jargon!

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I'll say!!

I use the A mode a lot with the 50mm but go for manual with the 13mm at a small fraction output setting but mostly with the SS200 though I have the SB104 too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I guess that sums it up Tom. Despite the availability of some level of automation (whether it be 3DMBFF or whatever), you still choose to use manual for wide-angle work. I think that is the message I was trying (through somewhat garbled explanation) to convey to craig.

Hi Craig,

I suggest you buy Thom Hogan's "Nikon Flash Guide" to help you answer questions like these.

The Nikon flash protocal you are referring to has been described above - it's 3D Matrix Metered Balanced Fill Flash - and it's available with DX Speedlites on the older cameras (film, and the Fuji S2pro). It uses a preflash, sort of like digital TTL systems use now.

Nikon underwater speedlites are not cabable of 3D MMBFF.

Cheers

James

Roger James! The most recent Nikonos model, the RS, predates 3D flash, which I believe came out with the N90.

Tom

I think I got my jargon wrong above. The correct term for 3D balanced fill flash is: 3D Multi-Sensor Balanced Fill Flash which, as Tom points out, was introduced with the N90.

For those who are baffled by the jargon, or simply want to better understand it, the Nikon Singapore site has a good explanation.

Hey thanks to everybody

just what i wanted,

going to get a couple of SB105's anyhow

thanks

craig

Have you considered Ikelite DS125's?

They are more powerful than SB105's, throw a wider beam, they recycle MUCH faster, they have more power settings, and they have what I consider better bulkheads.

Cheers

James

just got this from nikon usa

craig

Subject

N/F80 Flash metering system

Discussion Thread

Response (Rob M.) 03/21/2005 11:46 AM

You would get Multi-Sensor Balanced Fill Flash with a Nikon non-D lens or D-lens with the N80 and the SB-105 underwater speedlights.

Thanks for using Nikon products!

Nikon Inc. (USA) Support / Service

http://support.nikontech.com

To answer this question then, according to the post above.

My F80 will use a 5 segments which are linked according to the focus sensor used to run the Balanced fill flash protocol

named

TTL Multi sensor Balanced Fill Flash,

if it did monitored pre flash and coupled with a D lens it would be

3D Multi Sensored balance fill flash.

i'm suprised actually that the SB-105 has this function enabled considering its age

but its straight from the Horse's mouth..

I'll give it a test with a 20mm and see what happens, when i get the 105's

thanks for all the imputs

craig

I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

Having used the exact setup you mention with a wide angle D lens (18 mm) - I could see no difference between matrix balanced TTL and centre weighted TTL flash (even when the subject was off centre).

My guess is that the system is designed to work best in topside conditions (not entirely surprising when you consider how many/few F80s are probably put to work UW).

I'd be delighted to hear if you can figure out a way to make it work better (perhaps with some exposure comp).

I second Craig's suggestion of a DS125, or even an INON z220.