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Nikon F6 Underwater? (AKA Digital vs. Film, part infinity)

Started by Alex_Mustard ·

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Nikon F6 Underwater? (AKA Digital vs. Film, part infinity)

120 posts
  1. The last 'quality' area where I still think film behaves better is the area of gradation intense and specular highlights. Underwater of course this is with sunballs, and topside in contrasty light, particularly with figure work.
    When a camera or format makes you disregard composition you would otherwise like to employ, then there is something still very wrong with the format. Digital has made most of us avoid the sun or employ other tactics like placing an image component directly in front of it because it simply doesn't handle high-contrast areas very well at all (which you refer to). Let's face it, no sunball or sunburst looks right. They all look like s&*t. This kind of color fringing is probably the worst of it's deficiencies. Digital ain't the end all, but it is the future as yet unrealized.

     

    I think film still provides a nicer more even gradation in Zones 9-12 than digital. This can be overcome to some extent by underexposing, and then bringing out the shadows in post-processing.
    Given the way digital capture applies half of all available pixels to the highest captured level, then half of the rest to the next highest level and half of the remaining to the next highest level, and so on and so on until the lowest level is composed of the least data, shadows are always thin on info. Subsequently as you try to stretch the low levels to bring the exposure back up (because you have intentionally underexposed) you are using "dirty" information. It just doesn't work well to stretch light data and compress heavy data. The upper levels will be fine, but the lower levels will essentially destroy the quality of image. What I am saying is that there remains no way to circumvent this particular property of digital to which you refer.

     

    I enjoy shooting digital and am committed to digital capture, but I know that film in some ways offers a better final product. It simply cannot be argued away, nor can a condescending attitude towards those who continue to believe film is a better product change that.

     

    My hope is that digital capture becomes so good, that reliance upon gross post processing is not only rendered moot (for a good photographer) but also considered highly improper as a means for rendering a significant image. A digital photographer will always claim that the same photographic skill sets are required of both formats, but I think we all, on both sides of the fence, know that isn't true. Changing the hue of background water in post isn't a photographic skill, hence it is very hard to argue that Microsoft Blue ocean water was a uw photographic capture. It isn't wrong, nor is it dishonest, but it isn't necessarily photography. And therein lies the true separator between film and digital aficionados....no matter how much either side wants to argue about capture quality.

  2. Very interesting discussion... It is very easy to throw accusations like that, and I really think that making generalisations like this:

     

    "Digital Photography is the refuge of those who can't get it right on film and need to correct the pictures they take because they don't get it right when they take the shot. "

     

    ...are not very useful. Just to set the record straight, most of the major photo competitions (including the ones that Alex won, like Antibes and wildlife photographer of the year) require that photographers submitt untouched RAW files, which are not different than slides.

     

    Anyways, as said before, those are two different technologies, one is advancing the other is not. If film is your technology of choice and serves you better (for whatever reason), that is great, but I think it is very wrong to claim that "digital photographers" lack the skill that "film photographers" have. To me, it is the same as claiming that I can photograph better with a Canon than with a Nikon, and that is simply not true. All that matters is what is behind the camera...

  3. Changing the hue of background water in post isn't a photographic skill, hence it is very hard to argue that Microsoft Blue ocean water was a uw photographic capture. It isn't wrong, nor is it dishonest, but it isn't necessarily photography. And therein lies the true separator between film and digital aficionados....no matter how much either side wants to argue about capture quality.

     

    Exactly! And that change in hue can be done either with an image obtained by a digital camera or with an image from a slide scanner. Modern post-processing and manupulation can be done with *any* image, and while no magazine will reject film submissions, all of them (including Nat Geo, etc) will scan your slides and manipulate them before printing.

  4. What Hogwash ;)

     

    Film shooters cheat as much as digital allows today, changing film hues (Kodachrome, dead to my knowledge) Fujichrome Velvia, Kodak E100 VS, etc. I did it, Fred has done it over his career, Chris Newbert did it......Blah, blah, blah. Not trying to be nasty guys :unsure: Just let's get real......

     

    I respect anyone trying to portray the UW world, but film guys have been taking underwater 2,3 to 12 cameras for years at 36 shots / roll to guarantee they got the goods.....First time I met you Fred, was 1984 and you were coming ashore on Bonaire with 3 cameras!

     

    No one has a lock on what blue water looks like....Whether digitally adjusted, choice of film adjusted or darkroom filter adjusted. You can debate specs forever, it just ain't as important with today's technology as many would try to have you believe.....

     

    All the debate about purist capture is BS, too.....No scanned slide, negative or digital file sees the light of print unless manipulated. Any high end BUYER of photography is working with digital shooters who can make this technology sing.....Just Google any of the Nikon big names and Canon Explorers of Light pros.....Anyone want to tell them they "can't do" ?

     

    Finally, enough about the sunballs.......Stick your silhouetted subject in front of it, jack up the shutter speed and shoot. Enjoy this incredible technology and don't be so anal about things viewers will never notice.....

     

    But hey, JMHO ;)

     

    dhaas

    Edited by dhaas
  5. "Let's face it, no sunball or sunburst looks right."

     

    Hmmm. Not sure on this one. Firstly you can't actually look directly into the sun (I am assured of this by an opthalmic surgeon who has experienced the results of people doing so - they not nice), so any representation is just that, and cannot mimick what we envisage/cannot see. Secondly, we've become conditioned to accepting a sunburst representation on film as 'correct', but in fact it only reproduces the way it does because of failure of the reciprocity law at extreme exposure intensities - a technical inexactitude. Thirdly, if we'd never had film capture then would we notice the 'deficiencies' in the way digital appears to handle sunbursts?

     

    I'm not saying that digital is better or worse than film at dealing with sunbursts, but I am saying that accepting one over the other without questioning why isn't necessarily the best thing to do. Tastes, and perceptions, change!

     

    And blue (or in my case green), water is also a matter of taste. Reproducing what the eye/brain system thinks that it perceives is a notoriously inexact science. Arguing about reproducing reality assumes that 'reality' is a known quanta and I'm far from convinced that it is. After all changing film types is clearly a manipulation of the 'original' colours.

  6. It's not just sunballs as I said; it's any time where one has specular highlights, blending into highlights where detail is desired. This can occur with very contrasty lighting such as afternoon sunlight, or even a picture such as the one I've attached (juicy bits censored) with a broad density range from deep shadow to very bright highlight. If the tonal range of the photo is narrow, then it is easier to shift the exposure in camera or levels to accommodate the full tonal range; when it is broad as in this example, then it is more difficult to do without blowing out highlights and/or loosing shadow detail.

    post-5478-1169766240_thumb.jpg

  7. Loftus - if you ever need an assistant to aid you with your specular highlight testing - Mike Veitch is your man!

     

    Cheers

    James

  8. Yeah, but he may blow out more than the highlights! ;)

  9. ;):unsure:

     

     

    Come on now guys, living in Yap I see more bare breasts on an average day than most people see in a lifetime!

     

    But yes, I can certainly be your assistant.. ;)

    Edited by MikeVeitch
  10. "Let's face it, no sunball or sunburst looks right."

    Hmmm. Not sure on this one.

    Paul, I always like what you have to say here when you have something to say, but are you suggesting that you are not sure, not certain, not absolutely convinced that digital does not render high contrast areas as well as film?

     

    I am a dedicated digital guy, my film cameras and housings have not been out of the photo closet for over 3 years now, but that does not mean I don't recognize it's deficiencies. It only means that I appreciate it's upside more than I do film's, and that I believe it's future will at least minimize some of these weaknesses.

     

    Digital sunballs/bursts look like crap......is it really possible that digital photographers don't accept this as fact at this point in time? ;)

  11. As one who's never shot film, I can't give a proper comparison. However, I think the problem of shooting sunballs is over stated. I certainly don't avoid taking these shots. Here's a few samples from Wakatobi, my most recent trip.

     

    IMG_2706.jpg

     

    IMG_2125.jpg

     

    IMG_1229.JPG

     

    IMG_2998.jpg

     

    IMG_3300.JPG

  12. What Hogwash ;)

    Nah, this has always been overstated by *some* digital people to cover-up their own somewhat guilty pleasure of gross manipulation. First of all film guys never manipulated in the darkroom to even a distant approximation of what digital guys do now in post and secondly, you cannot manipulate a scanned slide in even close to the same degree you can a digital capture. There are many limitations, including your reference to color and hue.

     

    All the debate about purist capture is BS, too.....

    There are people right here on this forum for whom digital capture may be even more pure than emulsion capture. A couple required manipulations in ARC and away they go. There are people who take a singular pride in coveting pure capture. Your suggestion that everyone does oetherwise is the BS. This isn't a matter of film vs. digital but rather a matter of how one satisfies their own particular philosophy of what is right and what is wrong----FOR THEM.

     

    Finally, enough about the sunballs.
    It's not about sunballs, it's about the deficiency in digital that makes sunballs look like crap. It does the same thing in most other high contrast situations, I just reference sunballs because that is the most obvious and common to a group of uw photogs.

     

    ......Stick your silhouetted subject in front of it, jack up the shutter speed and shoot. Enjoy this incredible technology and don't be so anal about things viewers will never notice.....
    And there's the rub: some people don't shoot for "viewers", they shoot for their own satsfaction, for which gross manipulation and weakened compositional options are not acceptable. These people are usually film shooters, but as I said I know some digital folks who hold fast to film honesties as well.
  13. As one who's never shot film, I can't give a proper comparison. However, I think the problem of shooting sunballs is over stated. I certainly don't avoid taking these shots. Here's a few samples from Wakatobi, my most recent trip.

    Herb, if those are beautiful to you, then that is all that matters. On a personal level I don't find that any digital camera renders sunballs pleasing at all, let alone equal to film. My D2x s a nice camera, but I leave the sun out of almost all wa shots I make. Sometimes a little sunlight is worth the effort, but I always know a shot of a sunball will ruin whatever success I might have otherwise had with that image.

  14. I really think that making generalisations like this:

     

    "Digital Photography is the refuge of those who can't get it right on film and need to correct the pictures they take because they don't get it right when they take the shot. "

     

    ...are not very useful.

    I think that in varying degrees it is accurate. No one size fits all, but it does seem to me that gross manipulation has taken the place of solid photographic fundamentals for a somewhat large carve-out of the digital community. That isn't to say it is wrong, but rather is just a nod to what I consider an unfortunate truth.
  15. Herb, if those are beautiful to you, then that is all that matters. On a personal level I don't find that any digital camera renders sunballs pleasing at all, let alone equal to film. My D2x s a nice camera, but I leave the sun out of almost all wa shots I make. Sometimes a little sunlight is worth the effort, but I always know a shot of a sunball will ruin whatever success I might have otherwise had with that image.

     

     

    Perhaps I haven't seen enough good film sunballs shots to be much of a judge. If you think they are inferior to film shots, I really would like to know the details and perhaps have something to work on the next time out. Which cameras have you tried to shoot sunballs with? It seems to me to that before making a statement like "digital can't do sunballs" one should have tried a wide range of cameras and techniques.

    Edited by herbko
  16. Hi All!!

     

    Cool discussion!

     

    Here's some rambling from a flu-infested underwater photographer.....

     

    I can agree and take allmost any stand in the arguments presented here (maybee its the fever?).

     

    I think what divides people is mostly who has a history with film and who does not. If you had sucess with film allways got good results and produced good stuff you might be a little intimidated by the wast crowd producing good stuff out of the box. You were used to be the best at what you did. Now, you might even call digitalphotographers inferiour photographers?

    Now if you never actually got to grips with film and never got those good results but had an amazing comeback with digital you might call film dead or inferiour technology?

     

    Some facts:

    Film still has more dynamic range than digital. (Yes I know you can increase this with a rawconverter and a few layers in photoshop but not right out of the box).

    Digital is much easier for a photographer to develop with (faster learning curve) than is film, thus the choice of all if not most new photographers starting out. And the technology is developing faster.

     

    Less known fact:

    The expression of film and digital is very different. Weather or not you like the one or the other is a personal preference. As with the sun balls.

     

    A person that says film is dead, is repeating what was said during the onset of photography - painting is dead. I think as long as digital looks digital and film looks like film there will be both. Which look you like more is personal preference.

     

    Another interesting bit is the change of tecnique that came with digital. More blue water, less higlights in the shots. Seems to me there is a film niche there in the future if not digital gets there first. Who knows!

     

    Fire away!!

     

    Espen ;)

  17. I think it's just a matter of time till film is dead; like CD's and vinyl. (And I love vinyl because nothing sounds like it). Here are some reasons why:

    There are very few young photographers taking up film, and the old ones will die.

    I think digital technology will advance to the point where it significantly surpasses film even in dynamic range.

    Digital will continue to get better and better for the same money as all tech stuff has. Even medium and large format digital backs etc will come down in price. One only has to look at computers in the last twenty years for this; any of you young guys seen or know how to use a slide rule, and if so would you use it?

    As far as the 'look' of film vs digital - this will only be a concern of hobbyists who produce images mainly for themselves. For commercial photographers who make their living from the viewing public it will make no difference, as the public cannot tell the difference.

  18. Amigos,

     

    davidrodkeller is right about one thing.......Shoot to make yourself happy. If he is unhappy with his $4K Nikon D2X he can keep shooting film until he can't get it developed anymore.

     

    As far as stating film shooters don't or haven't manipulated images, I'd challenge that. Ansel Adams did it for crying out loud.....Debating how much and what parameters makes no difference, as it violates the "purist" mindset I hear from film advocates.

     

    I'd also like to know what dive boat you've seen this plethora of dedicated film photographers who can't bear the "gross manipulation" that will be required to make decent shots. Plus the "weakened composition" strictly assigned to digital photography?......I can't remember the last time I saw a film shooter at resorts or on a live aboard boat!

     

    Herb, Your sunballs look great, practically what they look like when swimming at depth looking up a wall.

     

    I guess that is why we have these forums, to each his own. On THAT, we can all agree ;)

     

    dhaas

  19. davidrodkeller is right about one thing.......Shoot to make yourself happy. If he is unhappy with his $4K Nikon D2X he can keep shooting film until he can't get it developed anymore.
    I don't mind a challenging response, but I do mind when they are premised on falsehoods. I have more than once stated that I am a dedicated digital photographer as well as said my film cameras haven't been used in close to 3 years. And I never commented that i was dissatified with my D2x. The tonal range/high contrast issues with digital is not limited to the D2x. It is a format issue, and one that no digital camera has overcome to date

     

     

    As far as stating film shooters don't or haven't manipulated images, I'd challenge that.
    Hmmmm....you are challenging something I never said. Straw man arguments are a waste of time.
  20. DavidRodKeller,

     

    No worries, I wasn't trying to be confrontational.....

     

    I did read where you have not used your film cameras for 3 years, have a D2X and are using it, but still seem to be lamenting over not using film. I just couldn't read into your posts ardently defending the technical specs, etc. of film as to why you choose to use your digital system. Unless it is the tonal / high contrast issues you believe are insurmountable with even a $9,000.00 full frame sensor dSLR and software.

     

    It seems many, many professional shooters outside of the UW world are extremely happy with their dSLR cameras and the images from them. Even comparing them to medium format film. Not me, but as I previously mentioned the Canon Explorers of Light shooters. I doubt they would change from film if they felt limited, constrained, or whatever.

     

    This thread was started by divegypsy, who I "think" is Fred Bavendam, a very, very talented photojournalist and artist. I wholeheartedley respect his vision and opinion. I just don't agree tat film is viable for anyone starting to shoot underwater today.....Digital has advanced so fast that 99% of new shooters will be more than satisfied with their results. Especially for fun ;)

     

    So let's just agree to disagree :unsure:

     

    dhaas

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