Canon 20 D & Subal - better than G5??

Hello:

This a strange question, and I guess I’m searching for some reassurance.

I am about to order my Subal housing for the canon 20 D – which is rather expensive.

I currently use the post consumer canon G5 in a Subal housing.

Having no experience in using the 20 D underwater, do 20 D users believe that the benefits of a 20 D and the results that are achievable far outweigh those of a post consumer camera (G5). Certainly, I am more than impressed with my 20 D on the surface – but what about underwater?

As I said in my first line, this question is slightly odd, but I’d hate to spend the extra money and find my results are identical to what I am achieving now!

Cheers………………Iain

Iain,

I'm sure you will get a multitude of opinions on this subject matter that might ultimately lead to another irresolute discussion of which camera system is better -- prosumer or DSLR. While this is a topic I prefer to stay far away from, your condition had prompted my response.

I was in the same boat you're on for the last month or so and, like you, was doubtful of whether to make the switch from my Olympus 5050 to the 20D. I had purchased the 20D some time ago and really enjoyed using it topside. As you know there are a lot of beneficial options that come with shooting a DSLR - faster focus, better optics, no shutter lag, etc. These benefits do not disappear when you're underwater and in comparison with a prosumer camera they offer a versatility that is leaps and bounds (to some degree) over shooting with a prosumer.

Ahhh.. But if it was just that easy then my response to you would not be so long. Having purchased and used the same setup you are now considering there are a couple of points I would like to make...

The Subal C20 -- it's an engeering marvel of perfection. I don't think you will be disappointed with it if you decide to dump that big lump of cash into it. Now should you do so... only you can answer that. There are alternative options that are easier on the wallet and the soul -- the Ikelite housing being at the least expensive extreme. I think the Ike housing is fantastic. I've got a video housing from them and that darn thing is bullet proof -- literally (okay.. almost. LOL). Everything works on it perfectly and it handles as much of a beating as I would think a Subal can. The important thing is that the housing is not going to make you a better photographer -- it's more likely to drown you from having to push around the equivalent of a mini sub underwater. Yes, the DSLR housings are quite a bit more work to move around than the prosumer housings (I'm comparing my PT-015 to the Subal C20 with the same strobe setup on each).

I considered both these housings when making my purchase. The winning decision-maker between the two came down to the speciality of shots (ie. ridiculously extreme macro) I envisioned myself doing. Unfortunately, some of it is beyond the means of the Ike housing at the moment (I wish it wasn't so). While not everyone really cares about such levels of photo taking, this was something I REALLY wanted. YMMV. I'm sure I'm just barking up a tree here and you're already familiar with all this.

Now what I really wanted to get to was the difference between shooting a prosumer and a DSLR underwater. As mentioned above, the great qualities that make a DSLR are a real pleasure to work with underwater. You'll easily get photographs of critters that were not easily attainable (notice I didn't say impossible) with your prosumer. But everything is not all wonderful and great in Digital SLR Land. With the switch you lose one what, for me, was the biggest issue -- versatility. You will no longer be able to shoot macro and wideangle on the same dive. You'll get wonderful, super sharp macro photographs of the eye of a whale shark or spectacular Where's Waldo the Nudibranch photos! That's a tough one to deal with if you're more into simply getting the shot than into attaining the highest level of perfection in a photograph that you possibly can. Some will say it'll make you a better diver/photographer because you'll concentrate on one type of subject.. Hogwash! I might have had a shark or two pass me overhead while shooting something macro but the option was available for me to get its shot should it happen to start nawing on my fin while I was shooting Waldo The Nudibranch.

Size matters! With a DSLR setup you're also lugging around a lot more stuff. I don't care how compact the housings are.. The Subal C20 is incredibly small but it big enough that it requires me to work a lot harder when I'm in a current in comparison with my PT-015. Personally, I also hated the fact that I lost the capability of shooting those little crappy videos with my prosumer of rare moments that a photo simply can't do justice to it. Lastly, the PRICE!! None of this underwater photo stuff is cheap but it sure gets a lot more expensive when you're suddenly moving up to a DSLR -- at the least, it's a nice two+ week trip to Wakatobi or something like that.

Sorry if I'm just making your decision harder. I will say -- I'm happy with the move. Partly because my 5050 will still be coming along thanks to my very generous dive buddy who will serve as a dive sherpa (thanks Fritz!). Once again.. YMMV. Ask yourself what you really want to accomplish with the DSLR and whether you wouldn't be able to achieve it now with your current setup.

My dos centavos.

Laz

Hello Lax:

Many thanks for taking the time out to write such a detailed and informative reply. I was really hoping someone would chime in that had been in a similar situation.

Yes – I also love those little videos, although the production quality is useless. They are good dive memory joggers.

I mainly shoot macro as there are only so many diver, corals shots that you want to collect. Of course this may change at some point.

Currently, my G5 setup is mildly problematic with shutter lag, DOF issues and focus issues being main hassles. It just takes for ever to focus! Sometimes you see that shot, but by the time you work through the previous issues it’s gone! I feel that a DSLR will in many cases rectify this issue. I also like the idea of being able to manual focus a lot more easily. And of course, and this is an assumption, I’m sure the quality and clarity of the image from the 20D will far exceed the G5 (?) Did you find there was a quality difference when you upgraded to the 20D?? For me, this is the biggest issue. If there is no quality increase in the image – then why upgrade. Love to hear your comments here

As for housings. I looked at the Ikelite, however, did not like the way the sync cord stuck out of the rear of the housing. I found the Subal to be ergonomically superior with the addition of various attaching points for focus lights, strobes and the like. Yes Subal is expensive, and so far I’ve been putting the price issue aside and only concentrating on the other aspects of the housing. Forgetting money – Subal is king (in my useless opinion).

What strobes do you use? I'm using the Inon Z220.

Thanks………..Iain

The superb eTTL conversion circuitry would make Ikelite the choice if the bulkhead had to be in your ear.............

The superb eTTL conversion circuitry would make Ikelite the choice if the bulkhead had to be in your ear.............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've mentioned this cable thingy in this forum before, and now have had a chance to actually test it under water. Sorry Ike, it's worse than I expected :-( I've pretty much learned to get my eye close to the viewfinder. It can be done, despite the bulkhead. The main problem turned out to be when I removed the housing from my face. The bulkhead would catch not only my reg, pulling it out of my mouth, but also my mask, causing it to flood

.

Not a nice surprise to suddenly have a mask full of water and a reg hanging halfway out my mouth (I quickly learned to bite that mouthpiece really good when snapping), while hovering a few inches over some corals. I wouldn't mind the bulkhead in my ear, I'm not using that bodypart much when taking UW pictures... My breathing and eyesight however...

Aother detail: the button for the changing mode on the camera doesnt grip very well. Surely this could be easily rectified on future models.

Fix this and I will really start raving about the housing. As a Subal user too, I am otherwise impressed with the quality of the Ikelite housing, the controls are good (apart from the one mentioned), in particular the release button (which on my Subal could be hard to feel when it was halway depressed). And I think the price is just right!

iain: I would agree with Laz, the kind of photography you do will probably have to descide. I haven't tried the G5 myself, but I personally would not tolerate shuter lag. Also the 20D has good autofocus (in my humble opinion) even in low light, and gives very noise free images. Good luck!

Thanks Norway!

The sync cord and button cannot be tolerated. That is just poor design, despite what the manufacturer may say. Sounds like a good reason to go Subal - forgetting about price. I have never minded paying for something that works as it should first time around.

Norway did you find there was big difference in the optical quality of your images when you upgraded to the 20 D? Iain

Iain,

I'm sure you could already see the difference between the shots you've taken with the G5 and the 20D now. I notice a difference in the noise level between my 5050 and the 20D. I'm not sure how it relates to the G5, though. Optically I also feel the image quality is better. But again, if your purpose to shooting is in achieving technical image perfection then I would say the DSLR is the way to go. If not, your prosumer might be the better option. A lot of what makes an image has to do with lighting and I have seen plenty of spectacular shots taken with a prosumer where the lighting was perfect and you'd be hard-pressed to tell with which camera it was taken.

I'm shooting with a pair of YS90DX's. They've never let me down and their small size works well for me.

Norway did you find there was big difference in the optical quality of your images when you upgraded to the 20 D?      Iain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't really compared optical quality, as I was using velvia film and a 17-35mm lens in my Subal, and now use a 10-22mm lens on my digital 20D in the Ikelite. So that would be comparing apples and oranges, with regard to optical quality I can however tell you I am quite happy with the picture quality from the 20D and that lens. That said, I haven't done a proper scientific test, it is just my impression from shooting a week in the Read Sea. It is also really nice to have a wiiiide angle again.

Thanks for your comments Laz and Snappy. It certainly helps to mull over the decision with someone who plays the same games.

To answer your question. Yes I like my images to be as good as possible. I’ve been known to toss images that are otherwise good, with the exception that the eyes are slightly out of focus. The G5 produces some very good results, however, these results are not consistent. Sometimes it’s my fault, but many times it is the camera’s fault such as poor manual focussing, inability to auto focus, or just shutter lag. The 20D doesn’t have these problems, and if the optical/picture appearance results underwater are as good as those the camera produces on land, then I will be pleased. (obviously after enhancing with levels, curves, USM, etc).

I did some reading earlier on today regarding the Ikelite housing, which I guess is the next contender – based solely on price. Several owners had commented on: leaking eye pieces, inability of knobs to operate correctly at depth, and the silly sync cord that hits you in the face, mask and regulator. Nor too mention that the Ikelite housing cannot be placed on its back because the sync cord will be bent and eventually malfunction.

The Ikelite housing is a good housing, however, it is a modular design that appears to suffer slightly from poor quality assurance. I guess that’s the reason its cheaper than an aluminium housing, although, at $2000.00 odd dollars I’d expect the concerns I mentioned above to have been rectified.

Subal does not appear to have many problems at all – if any. I assume you pay for design, ergonomics, consistency in quality and reliability.

So now I have to muster the courage to phone the dealer and place my order! I’m off to Papua New Guinea in July so it will be good to have the housing for this trip.

I’ll also investigate your strobe specs as small strobes are a good idea. Although I suspect I’ll purchase another Inon Z220 for consistency with my current strobe.

Many thanks for your help and comments. It sort of put things into perspective for me. Best to you……….Iain

I don't think the YS90s are smaller than the Z200s. They're shaped differently, but both are pretty compact. I love my DSLR setup, but I will tell that I easily get nostalgic for the days when I could carry my entire P&S setup (camera, housing, strobe) in a bag that fit inside my carry-on with other stuff. Hauling and checking in a case that weighs 70 pounds full of gear can be a drag, especially with airlines if you are not flying internationally and they charge you for the weight over 40 pounds. But using the DSLR is a delight.

As for housings. I looked at the Ikelite, however, did not like the way the sync cord stuck out of the rear of the housing.

At the dives I done after the last thread that mention this issue I tried to examine if really bother more accurately since I didn't noticed any problem before.

But again I didn’t felt any problem, the sync cord didn't stuck anywhere.

I assumed it can be a problem with other configurations but at list for me its no an issue.