Subal housing for Canon 580EX

I had sent an email to Alex Mustard as he seems quite knowledgeable about housed flashes, but thought I should post the topic here as well.

Subal has informed me that they will be releasing a housing for the 580EX flash in August/ September. This flash is slightly more powerful (190ft @ 100 ISO/ 105mm setting), and offers a wider area of coverage (to 14 mm) as well as a 25% faster recycling time than the 550EX (which Subal also offers a housing for).

I know that people say not to use TTL for wide angle, but does anyone have any experience using the 550EX underwater (with film or digital)? I have heard rumors that their TTL may work better underwater as Canon's E-TTL 2 works differently than the D-TTL or i-TTL that Nikon uses. Also, with the 580EX, the coverage of 14mm without any diffusion dome or flash adaptor (as the Nikon flash requires) would allow wider TTL coverage underwater than current system flashes offer, would it not?

Thank you for any responses. I would really like people to discuss if this flash/ housing combo could solve some of the drawbacks of TTL with wide angle, and not concentrate on Canon vs Nikon or how we do not need anything more than manual flash control.

Hi Craig,

I don't have any direct experience of the Canon flash or housing. But I will try and help.

If you want to use a Canon flash underwater - the main motivation is to have TTL/ETTL2. For this reason you can often get away with a cheap flash housing on which does not offer any control because you are going to be using the flash on automatic TTL anyway.

Housed land flashes work very well for close-ups and for fish photography, but are less effective for wide angle. Partly because they lack the coverage (which to some extent is solved here) but mainly because there can be problems when you try and use two together (so generally you are limited to one strobe).

The other problem with housed strobes is they are an expensive solution. In my opinion the flash housings with lots of controls are over priced. Canon flashes also require six connector cables - (non standard Nikonos ones) which can add to the cost.

My normal advice is to say don't worry about TTL. Use dedicated UW strobes and shoot manual. It is so easy. On film I would always use TTL. But on digital I would always use manual. Read this discussion:

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6199

But I know from experience that it can be hard to change people's minds (you need to realise for yourself that you don't need TTL). So my advice would be to look into some cheap and simple flash housings. After all if you want fully automatic flash then you don't need to be able to have access to the controls!

Hope that this helps,

Alex

I agree w/ Alex - if you plan to use a fully automatic flash, why pay top dollar for a flash housing with all those buttons? Subal used to make a simple "tubular" housing with a dome on the front for the SB28 series. It was simple and excellent. I'd ask if they can make one for you.

I have the 580EX flash for my Canon topside shooting and it's an excellent full featured powerful flash. eTTL2 flash control is good but it's not great. I used to use Nikon flash and I can say that based on my experience shooting next to D70 shooters that iTTL is much much better.

The reasons to get the 580EX housed (IMO) would be high speed sync and rear curtain sync.

HTH

James

Hi Craig,

I only know one diver who has shot E-TTL underwater with a Canon strobe (10D & 550EX). Different to reliable macro results he was very unhappy with TTL wideangle results. He stated that most of the wideangle pictures were badly underexposed. I tried to convince him to shoot manual. But he was(is) very afraid of loosing TTL. But after his experience he said: "It can't be more worse than E-TTL" and ordered amphibic strobes. I think he's gonna be happy after his next trip :-)

That being said, I've never had a look at his E-TTL wideangle results. If you are interested I can ask him to have a look at the pics and shooting data.

And he wished he had chosen a strobe housing with manual option (controls). But if you start to use a Canon flash in manual mode in order to get proper results you can better go for amphibic strobes.

What I think: If a Canon flash (100% E-TTL features) doesn't work well with E-TTL for wideangle - which other strobe could? But I've never tried and this is just the experience from one guy and I think some respected uw shooter has been mentioned using canon guns - but I don't remember.

If in doubt - go manual!

regards,

Julian

Wow, thank you for so much feedback. It has definitely been helpful.

I believe that with some of the positive feedback on TTL from the link Alex posted, I would still like to go with the housed 580EX flash for at least macro and film shooting.

My question about shooting with digital or for wide angle however is that since these Subal housed flashes can be adjusted manually, why can you not just use this manual compensation in situations where TTL doesn't work? Seems to me that this would be the best of both worlds. What am I missing here?

Also, can you explain to me briefly if their is a problem, other than expense, in connecting 2 housed flashes (with syn cords, not using one as a slave).

This is more my opinion than fact, but I think that the reason that it can be troublesome to connect two iTTL strobes (or two Canon E-TTL) strobes to a camera is that they are not designed to work like this.

In the days of old-style film TTL, where there were no pre-flashes the the TTL control was simple - and we could get away with splitting these communications to two strobes. These days the camera and flash are constantly talking to each other. Organising a multitude of pre-flashes etc etc. And it just too confusing for the camera when there are two strobes trying to talk to it through a single hotshoe.

This seems to be the case for housed Nikon Speedlights with their DSLRs. I don't know if it is the case for the Canon flashes.

As I say this is just my take on the issue. I haven't heard this from a technical source.

Alex

I would expect there shouldn't be a problem to operate two wired E-TTL strobes. But I don't know for sure and really wouldn't bet this setup would lead to reliable results.

The different conditions and influences underwater have been no item with old TTL as the actual light input to the film was always measured.

With complicated preflash TTL systems (E-TTL, ....) the camera calculates required strobe light output based on a weak preflash. But the camera doesn't check how much light acually is received during the exposure (mainflash). This is kind of not 'fail safe' compared to old TTL when in comes to non standard applications like underwater. There are several influences which IMO might affect this complicated 'preflash - calculate - fire unmonitored mainflash' procedure. Just one example: light absorption (thru water) is strong and non linear over the shooting distance underwater. E-TTL is a system designed for topside and might have difficulties as it doesn't expect such influences. Moreover E-TTL II takes shooting distance into consideration. If your lens (behind a dome) focuses to infinity underwater - the lens setting is something around two inches (depending on the dome you use). I don't know how this misinformation can influence E-TTL II. These are just my guesses what might be the reason for E-TTL being not suitable for underwater. And this would not apply to macro stuff (short distance / less water / small influence).

On the other hand I've never heard from anybody (non dealer / non manufacture) being completely happy with any E-TTL solution underwater so far (for wideangle / greater distance). If there is someone - please jump in :-)

My question about shooting with digital or for wide angle however is that since these Subal housed flashes can be adjusted manually, why can you not just use this manual compensation in situations where TTL doesn't work?  Seems to me that this would be the best of both worlds.  What am I missing here?

two 580EX & Subal housings:

over 4kg, over 2400 € over here, very big for travel, Guide number and beam angle roughly around two Sea&Sea ys-60 or Inon Z220.

When switching to manual: mini-knobs (don't try it with gloves ), press up and down to adjust manual output and you have to check the display to read the setting, and do that on two strobes B) - simply poor handling compared to amphibic strobes.

Think of what amphibic strobes you could buy for the same money: might be smaller / less weight, more powerfull, wider beam, fast recycling, built in focus light, good handling and depending on the one you choose - warmer color temp. .

By the way, when I had to decide to go manual and read Alex's comments, I thought: Dr. Mustard, the pro who lives underwater. If he shoots manual underwater doesn't meen I can handle this as well. But I can assure you - it's easy for less frequent and experienced shooters like me and everybody else as well!

regards,

Julian

PS: who is this guy called TTL?

Ok, a question about the flash sync ports. My housing has an S6 (Subtronic) connector on it. Does this S6 connector require conversion circuitry in the housing or will a Canon flash just work with any style flash port (Nikonos 5 pin, S6)? The guy I bought the housing from in Austria had a Canon flash in a UK Germany housing, so if it does require conversion circuitry, I already have it.

Also, is there any advantage to using the S6 over the Nikonos style? I am guessing that if I kept the S6, I could use either Subtronic strobes or a housed Canon flash, and if I switched my flash port over to Nikonos 5-pin, I could use Sea and Sea strobes or a housed Canon flash (the Canon housing comes with either flash port as an option)?

Which type would you go with?

Also, I heard Canon flashes also have a 6-pin connector that they can use. Has anyone heard of this and what are the benefits (such as is it more accurate since it doesn't need conversion circuitry)?

you're right, E-TTL requires 6 pins / S6. There is no conversion circuit required but correct wiring. Basically if your housing works with an UK flash housing all 6 wires should be connected.

The problem among manufactures is: S6 is not S6. The bulkhead is the same but every manufacture is soooo smart that they do the wiring (inside the camera and flash housing) as they want to. A friend of mine bought a Sealux (Canon) housing and a Seacam strobe housing. He found that no manufacture sticks to a certain standard and had to rewire the cables inside the housing (Sealux Canon S6 wiring different to Seacam Canon S6 wiring). So you should take care of the wiring as I don't know if or which manufactures do the wiring in the same way.

regards,

Julian

My normal advice is to say don't worry about TTL. Use dedicated UW strobes and shoot manual. It is so easy. On film I would always use TTL. But on digital I would always use manual.

As a former TTL-only person, I have to echo that sentiment. I had never shot anything BUT TTL until last year. But when I got my first DSLR last year, I decided I would go "cold TTurkey" and shoot nothing BUT full manual until I got it figured out (which only took a few dives!). If you look at my website, ALL the photos from Komodo 2004 and Indonesia 2005 were shot on full manual (I'll never go back). Following is a synopsis of my simplistic approach to manual that I posted to a local uw photography board after my first DSLR trip - it might be helpful to those "stuck" on TTL:

>...what surprised me -- and should be encouraging to others of you considering D-SLRs for UW photography -- was how quickly I was able to learn to shoot on full MANUAL (I've always used cameras' program and/or TTL modes). I was really worried and intimidated by that prospect, but was told by several people that it was the only way to go, so I forced myself to learn...

Within a half dozen dives, I developed a simple system that worked for me: I would set a shutter speed ahead of time based on the type of subject (usually between 1/60 and 1/100), and then -- when actually taking the picture -- adjust only the aperture for depth of field and exposure (e.g., to get blue water in the background, I'd adjust aperture until the camera's viewfinder exposure guide arrow showed me about 1 stop underexposed), and then I'd simply increase or decrease the strobes (also operated entirely on manual) based on the exposure of the first or second shot (see next paragraph). For macro (with no blue water considerations), I typically set the aperture to f16-f22 (to get good depth of field), and then just pumped up the strobes until I got a decent exposure. For wide angle, I typically used f5.6 - 8.

I also found that (per an excellent suggestion by Norbert Wu, a renowned UW photographer), using the histogram to quickly assess exposure of each shot was a BIG help! If you have a digital camera that shows histogram during the quick review display after each shot, learn how they work (a Google search will produce excellent tutorials) and USE them! <

Yes, I agree that with digital TTL is probably not as necessary because you can just check the exposure and shoot again. However, I am using a film camera and would rather use TTL instead of wasting film trying to get it right.

So the S6 connector is required? I know I have also seen a Sea & Sea connector with literally 6 pins (the S6 only has 5) that I thought was used with Canon E-TTL also. I am not sure if this is their proprietary connector for Canon or not, and I am not sure if it actually does E-TTL.

Since I am shooting film and already have my housing wired for S6, I believe I will wait for the Subal 580EX housing. It is a great flash that has similar specs to a good Sea&Sea flash like the 90DX. We'll see how it does with wide angle and hopefully it will be fairly versatile underwater when I do jump ship over to digital. It could be a mistake or it could be a great decision, but in any case I will let you all know and post some pics after it comes out.

Thank you for all of your advice. I keep getting on this site more and more for information, just from reading everyone's posts. Keep up the good work.

Hi Craig,

S6 has indeed 6 pins (pic linked from Sealux):

As said, E-TTL requires all of those 6 pins. Sea&Sea uses a modified version of their 5 pin sockets and plugs with an additional pin for E-TTL:

The additional pin is visible in the centre of the socket. The plug is the common 5 pin one which can be plugged into the 6 pin socket as well (fall back).

As you use a film camera there might an option with 5 pins: fall back to old Canon TTL. 580EX and Canon E-TTL film cameras offer old TTL protocol downward compatibility for older cameras/strobes (old TTL requires only 5 pins - but I don't know how to wire them). But dealing with an E-TTL camera and strobe – I would definitely go for a 6 pin connection in order to have full functionality and all options.

For the Subal 580EX housing S6 is the way to go. On the other end of the cord: what housing / camera do you use?

Regards,

Julian

Thanks for your reply Julian.

I have included two pics from the Subtronic website of what my connector looks like. I have seen this same connector on the back of a Subal housing for a Nikon flash. Let me know if this is not S6... from the information I have gotten over here, this is the best guess. The socket only has 5 rigid pins so we weren't sure if it was a different version of a Nikonos set up (the regualr one have 2 smaller pins that compress). But the person I bought the housing from did have a Canon flash in a UK Germany housing, so it should work.

The bulkhead has 5 wires attached to it. It is the same rainbow colored wiring that I have seen in other Subal housings. Does this mean it is a Nikonos bulkhead and there is some circuitry in there to make it work with a Canon flash?

Also, I have added a signature so my camera info and website are included.

Thanks again,

Craig

Craig,

your assumption is right. This is no S6 socket. You have a 5 pin N5 socket. And yes, there are two N5 versions around in Europe. As you have stated, the original Nikonos V socket has two spring loaded pins. In addition european manufactures offer a modified N5 socket with 5 static pins as well (because they say that they are more solid).

The 5 pin connection worked because it wasn't full E-TTL, it was "just" TTL as prescribed in my last post. This works with film cameras but not with digital SLRs.

I am sure you can order the Subal strobe housing with N5 socket for film cameras. But I think you might want to have the opportunity for E-TTL as you spend money on the 580EX strobe? The other solution would be to replace the socket on the camera housing and get S6. This way you could use the strobe housing for future DSLR plans and you would have E-TTL with your film camera.

I am sure you have an upgrade possibility to DSLR in mind? Otherwise you could get an amphibic TTL strobe for your Canon film camera.

However, wiring shouldn't be a problem as you would have camera and strobe housing from one manufacture (Subal).

regards,

Julian

Thanks again. You would not believe the unfamiliarity with this type of socket in the US. I have shown it to professionals at a scuba trade show, an underwater retail shop, as well as an underwater repair shop... no one knew what they were looking at! In fact I had even asked why they would call this an S6 socket when it only had 5 pins.

I have emailed Subal concerning what socket choices they would offer with the housing, but I believe you are correct in saying that I should go with a 6 pin socket and just change the one on my camera housing. Since I will be using digital in the future, it would not make sense to have a N5 socket on the flash housing now, only to have to change it later.

Do you think Subal would offer the option of a Sea&Sea 6 pin socket? Or could this be installed? If I had one of those I could use both the Sea&Sea strobes and the housed Canon flash. Of course, if I went with the S6, I would always have the option of Subtronic strobes.

The Subtronics are also not very well known here. How do they compare to Sea&Sea (any pros/ cons)? I see that Alex uses them and he seems to take decent photographs.

We are moving to New Zealand next year so I am also wondering the type of equipment that they would be familiar with there... so that the service shop knows what they are working on!

Hi Craig,

I don't know if this is of any interest to you, but Matthias Heinrichs has just cracked ETTL-II, so his adapter will let you drive a normal TTL underwater strobe from the 20D. You lose high speed sync and you may well lose second curtain (I will check when I get mine), but the basic ETTL-II operation should be spot on knowing MH's success in the past.

The adapter supports a decent subset of affordable strobe, if I were you I'd check it out. I just put my money where my mouth is and I'll report back once I've integrated it.

To put it in context, I'm "doing a Darecky" and mounting a 20D in a Sea&Sea DX30/60 housing. I could have gone the six pin route, but I reckon with already having a YS-90DX, that would have been a daft use of money, and an odd strategy for me.

HTH,

Martyn

actually Matthias has not cracked E-TTL II, but extended his code to support the 20D. You can not use this converter for any E-TTL (II) camera like an E-TTL Canon system gun (even the oldest Canon E-TTL system gun from film age works with the newest E-TTL II digital SLR). The complete E-TTL (II) protocol is not provided. Even if the converter gives proper results in conjunction with a 20D, Craig could not use it with his film EOS.

regards,

Julian

Julian,

You probably saw Martyn's post and not my new one. Please look at my new post and answer some of my questions as you are my German ally that seems to have all the socket answers!

Thanks,

Craig

Crag, sorry that your german ally disregarded your post

Subtronic / Sea & Sea:

Basically Sea & Sea offers two types of strobes (beside the super small toy stuff). The ys-60 up to the ys-120 all play in the same class of power which is 60 W/s. The model numbers are a bit misleading as the only stronger strobe is the ys-350 (price and weight accordingly).

Even Subtronic’s smallest strobe (Mini) provides more light output than the entire ys-60 to ys-120 range.

As you use a Canon film camera: do you have one of the quiet rare Sea&Sea strobes with integrated Canon film TTL circuit?

Another point to consider is local serviceability. Subtronic strobe design already requires a service point in order to change the inaccessible battery. Plane travel can become difficult as built in batteries contradict to the IATA regulations (bulb or battery have to be removed if you have bad luck). In recent cases people had to leave their Subtronic strobes behind. By the way, you get a Subtronic strobe if you buy a Seacam strobe (Subtronic internals but Seacam has distribution in the USA - don't know how much the silver outfit additionally costs ). Battery issue is the same.

TTL Circuit: Subtronic offers Canon film TTL circuit for their strobes since a long time. Another difference: Subtronic (and Hartenberger) use metal bodies. Sea&Sea and Inon prefer plastic type material (I don't say one is generally better - but different in weight as well).

I don’t know if Subal would install a Sea&Sea socket. I’ve never heard that they did. But I don’t know.

The problem if you want to use a Sea&Sea (film TTL?) strobe and the 580EX (E-TTL) on the same socket: re-wiring might be required (I would expect so).

Julian

If you can get the spares it can be quite easy to install a different socket on a housing. I got a spare subal socket a few years ago and had it fitted on my Hasselblad housing without any fuss.

I agree with Julian on the need for local support on whatever kit you own. In the end it may go wrong and you need to get it fixed.

I have a love hate relationship with my Subtronics. The light is warm and powerful, with wide, even coverage. They recycle instantly and they last me through a whole day of shooting. And they are very hard to flood - I know lots of people who have flooded the battery compartment YS120s (including me) - don't know anyone who has flooded a Subtronic (although I am sure you can!).

The downside is that they are heavy (Alphas) both above and UW, expensive (although to be honest I have had them a long time and they have taken the odd picture), and have the IATA issues. And they have not been 100% reliable. One went down last summer when I was in Cayman (although mine do get heavy use).

What I really like about them is I don't have to worry about strobes. There is nothing out there I would rather have. I know that my Alphas do the business.

Alex