tailwind_marseille

Hey @Mark Chivers Do you still have the strobes ? I'll send you a DM.

Hey Chris, thanks again for your feedback. The tokina seems to be usable between 12-15mm in FF, and give a good 180 degree image at 15mm. My thinking was to keep it with a FF camera, instead of the more pricey Canon 8-15mm route. The AOI housing for the A7C II would solve some strobe-related issues, but then there's the cost of the dome, plus extensions ($$$ !). I'm discovering the complications of FF, mostly in terms of lack of low cost options. And I've read time and time again that APS-C is more than enough for UW. And I guess M43 too, judging from many images I've seen. Are your topside photos also taken with a M43 system?

Mmm, thanks for the remark. Indeed, I've been more focused on whether TTL is possible with a particular combo, but always thinking that in the end, there's always Manual. But, what you're saying is, not even that... Would the Sea&Sea YS-D3 be able to "cancel the pre-flash" ? Does this mean is won't take the pre-flash into account ? As in, some sort of "training" or setup, has to be done prior to shooting ? I'll look better into the AOI flash that comes already with the housing... but I guess it would do just what the camera tells is to do ?

Yes, expensive indeed! But, I'm comparing "within" the hobby world: 800-1000 euros for a flash is a little crazy in the non-UW photo world (not talking about pro usage), but then a 500 euros trigger (not even a flash...) seems bonkers. I know, I know, this is what it is, and we have to live with it. The A7C II would not be meant just for UW. It's for use both UW and outside of it. If, most things considered, the A7C II is comparable to the A6400 underwater (with all their limitations, including 1/160th sync speed for both), I would favour the A7C II as I will also use it extensively topside (likely even more than UW). On another hand, if the A7C II becomes a PITA :) for UW, then I'm not so sure it's a good idea the compromise. One big issue is, as we discuss, the lack of built-in flash. And you're right about the AOI housing, it comes already with a tiny flash trigger. It's probably the best way to go, if I end up getting a A7C II.

This thread has perfect timing. Was driving to work just thinking of starting something around Sony A7 and A6xxx cameras and strobes, and here this was :) A friend who's been shooting for >20 years )Nikon FF and TG-7) just convinced me to get the YS-D3, he says it's a great little package, and more than good enough for WA (what I want to do). As @Lewis88 points out, they can be found at a great price. Not sure how much they would add up to (import duties + shipping) to France, but they can also be ordered locally from Photo Denfert for 650 euros a piece. I'm kind of divided on this one. I recently got a A6400, a Tokina 10-17mm + Canon adapter, but haven't made the plunge yet for the housing, as I'm strongly considering the A7C II instead. I could still use the Tokina, and a housing of similar size. The motivation is less UW photography, but mostly for topside shooting with other lenses, where I believe FF will make more of a difference. The problem with the A7C II (vs the A6400) becomes the triggering of the strobes: I can only find TTL hot shoe triggers in the ball park of 500 euros, and this seems crazy to me... With the A6400 (which is considerably cheaper) there is a built-in flash, but the A7C II needs a trigger, and I find exaggerated the cost of something like this. Are there any alternatives ? I would use two YS-D3 strobes with the A7C II, but I can't really wrap my mind around spending an amount similar to a strobe just for a pair hot-shoe LEDs ... I know this is niche, and things are not mass produced, but still ... seems ridiculous - but maybe I'm missing something, and we're talking about crazy complicated tech ?

Hey @samchchiu Thanks for your review! I'm looking into this housing and landed here :) Did you manage to test a little more the AOI housing ? Maybe during your January trip ? I'm curious about the flash trigger and the possibility of using it with a Sea&Sea YS-D3 in TTL mode. Are you happy with its flash-triggering capabilities ?

Hey @DHale , I’m located in France, in case shipping works. I’m looking into putting together a rig, and this seems like a good starting point. I’ll DM you later in the day.

It does help indeed, thanks! I’m considering fisheye solutions for a full frame system (A7C II) - ideally that won’t break the bank… ha ! funny, I know. I’ve seen this combo (28mm + converter) mentioned several times, but it’s good to know that it’s not as good as a wet lens. Moving into FF for IQ, and would be a pity to cancel that improvement with bad optics.

@Zlati what is your experience using the 28mm + fisheye converter, in terms of image quality and adaptability to a housing, when compared to a wet wide lens (like the WWL-1) ? Of course, we lose the zooming capabilities of a 28-60mm + WWL-1, but I'm wondering more about the wide field + IQ. thanks !

Thanks for taking the time! I'm starting to understand this better (I think ... 😅). As for the Tokina + Salted Line housing, I've seen people confirm using a 6 inch dome and having good results. As Salted Line also has a 4 inch smaller dome, which looks more like a hemisphere, I wondered if it would be better. But, as you point out, the Tokina being a fisheye might not do much different with either a 4 inch or 6 inch dome (except for the possible vignette).

Thanks for linking to this. I've been trying to wrap my around the effect dome radius: bigger seems to improve the corner sharpness, but on another hand, and from one thing I think I understand from that article, it moves the ideal spot of "light convergence" way back, behind the camera itself (I'm referring to the "Correct Dome positioning" part in the article) - an hemispheric dome will help with that, as it brings that convergence point closer to where the lens would be. So, won't a smaller dome work best with fisheye lenses ? I'm thinking here of a 4 inch dome with a Tokina 10-17mm. In your initial sentence "a 6"dome is really too small for a 15mm rectilinear lens", I think of a 15mm as a very wide angle lens, which should benefit more from smaller radius, right ? Me, confused.

A zoom ring held by tape ... wooooo 🤣 Ok, I'll come back here for advice when that happens, and before I start to panic !

What is that third solution to keeping a Salted Line housing under vacuum while diving ?

Thanks for the info. Indeed, we can only find them in the used market. I got lucky and seemed to have found one in great condition. Looking forward to try it underwater !

This is not mine, but has been posted elsewhere in the forums. A Zoom gear for the Tokina 10-17mm inside a Salted Line housing. Would be interested to know if someone here has already tried it:

Hey @kalani I'm also looking into this. Several people have used the Tokina 10-17mm in their Salted Line housing, and there is even one zoom gear available for 3D printing that can be fitted in (see here: https://waterpixels.net/forums/topic/566-salted-line-tokina-10-17mm-zoom-gear/#comment-1560). I'm currently thinking of buying a Tokina 10-17mm lens, only thing I'm not sure yet is about the fixed petal hood, which could pose a problem inside the dome port.

This is super useful ! Thanks. Indeed, I was not sure how a dome port would affect optics. In the example you link to a wide-angle lens is used. Is it the same with a fisheye (I guess so... ?), or a fisheye "naturally" already has more corner softness (I'm thinking either of the Tokina 10-17mm or the Canon 8-15mm) ? The Sony ecosystem, mostly due to the autofocus and friends/family using it, should be the way to go for me. I also looked into the Sony 10-18mm F4 wide-field as a possibility - it would be nicer for wrecks, but I would lose the extra FOV from the fisheyes... On the other hand, I would play with it topside more often than with a fisheye. For macro... yeah, this is a little more tricky. I would be happy with CFWA (or fisheye), and the idea of using a teleconverter, line Tinman suggests, sounds interesting.. Regarding travelling, I'm not putting that into the equation. I've been diving mostly at my backyard which has plenty of life - even more since the coastal area became part of the Calanques National Park. I'm putting this kit together to shoot locally. If one day I'll go elsewhere and happen to dive there (this past summer I was in the Azores, and it was beautiful !) I'll just have to use my photographic memory instead... :P Won't a small dome (small means 6 inches... ? 4 .... ?) introduce more corner aberrations ? And would those be less obvious when zooming in? Another question, when you add a teleconverter does the minimum focusing distance of the lens change? The housing might be the weak link here... unless I find a more premium housing in the used market, I might have to go with Salted Line / Seafrogs. yeah, thanks for pointing this out. Chris post and the article he linked to make that clear enough ! I'm leaning towards the Sony 10-18mm lens that would work fine while using the Salted Line A6xxx housing (zoom ring available) and shouldn't require adapters, inside a 6 inch dome. But, I'm attracted by the possibilities of the Tokina (or the Canon).

I need to read more on this. Both the Tokina and the Canon 8-15mm seem to be favourites. I'll dig deeper in the forums :)

Yes, I'm leaning heavily towards the Sony ecosystem. I spent quite a lot of my sofa-time (the last couple of weeks of bad weather - and under the weather - around here) reading about options. Thanks for he tips on focal lengths. I have to check about the Tokina too, as mentioned by Lewis88. Depending on the housing, it seems zoom control is not always possible....

yup, better as in, better as achieving out of focus outside of focus plane with large apertures.

I already have a housing for the TG-6. No strobes yet. It was the search for strobes + wet lenses for the TG-6 that made me think I want to go right away for something with a larger sensor, for better depth of field. I already have an old D3300 that I carry around, but it's old focus system and expensive housings make it pointless. I thought then of getting myself a newer APS-C that would perform well underwater. And I agree with you, handles, arms, strobes, all that gets carried on.

Regarding what to shoot, I want it all ! :) Really, as a newbie it's hard to say. It's early to want to specialise in anything. The options we have here in Marseille are enormous, there's big fish (merou, barracuda, tuna, etc), large schools of many species, nudibranch everywhere, corals, and many wrecks. I've done night dives in wrecks that I wish I could repeat the conditions with a camera in hand. So, as for equipment, it seems really hard to cover all this. From what I've gathered, closer is better, and it seems a zoom lens in kinda pointless, so I thought about going with a prime for wide field (something like a Sigma 16mm F1.4) - but then I see also the Sony FE 16-35mm F4 ZA OSS and wonder if I won't get more flexibility from carrying that one around in a dive... or even the Sony 10-20mm F4, or the Sony 11 mm F1.8. I do seem to be attracted to wide angle and large apertures in my topside photos. I'm thinking it will be the same underwater. As for macro, eventually, but initially I think I'll be focusing more on reef, large fish, schools of fish, before becoming frustrated about not getting a good shot of that tiny thing. What focal distance would you be thinking about when wanting to shot mid sized fish ?

Thanks everyone for the feedback ! My previous use of the TG-6 snorkelling was in multiple situations, going down to 4-5m, sitting around, waiting for fishes, and without a housing. I had a lot of fun, but always found the images lacking something. When I compared it to a S110 it was at home, typical "wall + frame" pictures, side by side, multiple focal distances, playing with ISO, and to my surprise the old Canon had an edge. I did get an Ikelite housing for it, but when I went looking about getting the rest of the gear (wet lens + strobes) I realised that maybe I could invest a little more and up the kit a little bit. I thank you all for toning down my enthusiasm regarding FF :) As I've always been playing with APS-C since 2006-7, it felt weird investing so much in a system with such a small sensor (the TG-6). I'm seeing the light now, and it shows me something between a MFT and APS-C :D A pity that opinions on Salted Line / Seafrogs seem mostly on the negative side... they have (low) cost on their side. Mostly what concerns me is how the ports will affect the light. No point in getting a fancy lens and then put it behind glass (acrylic...) that will ruin the show. I have a good deal on a A6400, might go down that route. In the meanwhile, also ordered Alex Mustard's book and will do my best to make myself more enlightened ! And then get decent strobes :) @Lewis88 thanks for the tip on the YS-D3. A pity there here in France they retail for 650-850 euros .... (the YS-D3 Duo). I had impression that many people had issues with reliability with Sea and Sea lights (https://waterpixels.net/forums/topic/3224-sea-sea-ys-01-ttl-inconsistency-led-behaviour-known-fault-repairable/) ? And Inon being a more solid choice ? Cheers everyone!

Hi everyone, I'm sure this gets throw out a lot (and I'm spending some time going through previous threads): I'm researching on what to get as my first dedicated underwater setup and am quite lost :) I have a TG-6 that I used last summer while snorkelling and did not like its soft images. I compared to an old Canon S110 I had in a drawer and the Canon is better... I guess it is to be expected, considering the small sensor. So, I started looking in to options as a camera for my first underwater dedicated setup. An old Nikon J5 in a drawer seemed like an option until the lack of housings quickly made it moot. I then thought of a second hand Sony RX100 IV or V, as the cost is not prohibitive and there are enough housing options. But... then .... yeah... exactly, it's getting BIGGER :) ... I quickly realised that the Salted Line housing for the Sony Alpha 6xxx range is actually cheaper than for the RX100. And, a second hand A6400 comes around for a similar price of the RX100 V (plus the lenses, of course, but that part I do like, swapping lenses for different goals). I've been shooting topside film and then APS-C cameras from Nikon, and I would like to get similar sharpness from my photos underwater. This made me orient to researching for the Sony E mount lenses options, housings, etc. But later, talking to a photography enthusiast friend who made the move to full frame ~10 years ago, he sold me on the idea of going full frame. The Sony A7C seemed like a perfect fit, similar in size to the A6400, but then came the bad news: housings are more expensive (Salted Line does not have a A7C housing, only Seafrogs - and from what I understand Salted Line is a Seafrogs subsidiary that produces its housings with higher quality, right ?), and I also started to realise that regarding strobes I might not be able to get away with smaller ones, like a couple Ikelite Eckos, or Inon S220s ... ? I even spent some time checking out MFT cameras (there are good deals for Olympus Pen E-PL10 + housing), but I feel it will always be a step down in image sharpness vs the APS-C (and of course full frame) options, plus the Sony autofocus seems to be a game changer. As you see, I'm quite lost. 1) Will a A6400 be significantly bulkier than a Olympus Pen ? I know it's bigger, but I would like to know from people who use these rigs how much "annoying" they really are. I'm ok with the extra size/weight unless we're talking about "cinema camera" loads here... I'm ok with a little bigger rig if I'll be considerably more satisfied with my images. 2) Am I going crazy considering the Sony A7C ? Assuming it's similarly sized to a A6400, I see the problems mostly with its cost (although not much more in second hand), the lenses (a little bigger, but I think I would go for similar lenses with the A6400, thinking of a future upgrade), but I'm not sure about strobes ? I would also use the A7C topside, to replace my current ageing Nikon D3300. 3) has someone here used Salted Line housings (for the Axxx range?) and is happy with them ? My purpose is not to break the bank and go for second hand material (camera body, lenses, ports), I like the idea of cheaper housings as long as flooding is not an issue (I'm not - yet - prepared to pay a premium for usability and quality of feel, as long as it works, I'm happy with it), and I would like to avoid spending 1K per strobe. I also don't know how (un)reasonable all this sounds. Plus, I would like to do both wide angle AND small things. Uffff... I'm leaning towards the A6400 based setup (also thanks to previous input elsewhere from another member here, Barmaglot), but I can be nudged either way. And there are the lights too... Thanks !

Thanks for the enthusiasm ! Yup, diving in the beautiful Calanques and the islands in front. It's an amazing place! I have already spent some time snorkeling with the TG-6 last summer in the Azores. I got some nice pictures, but still find that sensor to give very soft images. I compared it to my old Canon S110 and the Canon won... :/ I'm about to get a Sony A6400 - I'm used to shoot with an old Nikon APS-C topside, and want that extra sharpness from the images. Also, Sony's autofocus seems to be otherworldly, which should help with less frustration (I got so many out of focus images with the TG-6, that I only found out later at the computer).