RomiK

It's just a tool the filters and it has its use case depending on artistic taste of the author... there is no right or wrong really...

I might use blue filter for this image 

but not for this image

as there is no way I could recover colors of clarion fish... same dive... and since things happen so quickly I hate changing the equipment on the fly... so each tool has its own use case

5 hours ago, Klaus said:

This is true when the filter is on the camera lens - but the backscatter one is ion the strobe. So it removes the red from the strobe light, hence you can push the red channel in the camera image without turning  the foreground pink. No?

The answer would be no and for explanation we can reach physics.   What makes color as perception by human eye? A surface reflection of the light which reaches it. No reflection - black. Total reflection - white. In simple terms. So if the filter blocks red portion of the light then this red won’t reach the surface which in turn will not reflect it. 
 

No filter or processing in the camera will change this as there is nothing to recover. The surface does not emit light. It only reflects what comes on it. No red in means no red out. By using the blue filter you get more uniform - but bland - foreground and background. Which is fine for some applications and not for others. Backscatter.com example visualizes this nicely. 

1 hour ago, Klaus said:

 

I am intrigued by the concept of a blue filter on the flash. I assume this works by allowing you to adjust the white balance with more red overall, hence recovering more of the remaining red from ambient light in the „non strobed“ parts of the frame. 
If you used a warm color strobe, you would cool the rest of the frame, which gives the nice negative space blue. If you used a cooler color strobe, you could push the red further overall, hence deeper penetration of color. 
Thus, do I understand this right: It‘s like the red filter, just inverted logic?

Then, do I also understand it right that this will work best in shallow waters (say, up to about 15 m) and that in theory you need to get the right blue filter for the depth you are shooting?
 Maybe we‘ll see a new line of magic filters, this time for the strobes?
 

I would say there no such thing as free lunch in UW photography 😁 The cool filters will not bring reds - the opposite they will block them. So in theory when you push reds in post the closest to you part of image won’t get ‘red hot’ and the color expression of the image will get more uniform. It also means though that you can forget about real reds and the image will be kind of - without RED. If it makes sense. 

44 minutes ago, Andrej Oblak said:

 

 

To (hopefully) get back on topic, let me ask a question: does flash gun's tube type influence the amount of backscatter? I.e. circular vs straight. I own a set of Inon Z-330 and a brand new set of Retra Pro Max strobes. The first thing that I noticed is that Retras produce noticeably less backscatter than Inons. Positioning of the strobes is the same (I point Retras the same way as I did Inons - noting changed here), but I get noticeably less backscatter with circular tubes than with straight ones. Would a (lack of) diffuser play a big role here?

This may be just a theory and thought from previous YSD2/3 current Retra Pro X owner - the small rectangular bulbs of Inons Z and alike will produce more concentrated beam of light and although the published angle parameters might be the same it is still a point source.

And reflections are just simple function of angles.

Whereas circular tube will disperse light under wider variety of angles and therefore less light may fall on backscatter in angles that matter.

Just a thought trying to find some logic in things we all hate 🙂 

28 minutes ago, Adventurer said:

Sorry @ChrisH but I have to ask: where you ever diagnosed protanopia ?

 

If not, I probably need to see the doctor because, I clearly see RED in @Interceptor121 Bohar snapper shot. Am I the only person seeing the red there?

Guys,  before things get personal why don't you agree on definition of red perhaps? There is RED, middle red and not so much red? Perhaps depending on the distance? Perhaps one red is good for one and not good for the other?🤷‍♂️😁

1 hour ago, ChrisH said:

I know that is off topic, but I really can‘t let somebody just accuse me harassing wildlife for „getting a shot“. It is a really bold statement from somebody who was not there when I took the shot. 
 

As can clearly be seen in the picture, the snappers face my direction, they move towards me, not the other way around. If you approch them by moving towards them they will turn away. I was hovering there and waiting for at least 10-20 minutes, waiting for them to get used to me. I had two people just rush through the school, bringing me kind of back to my starting point. When they get used to a diver, they sometimes will just ignore your presence and swim around you. I did not manage to have that situation very often, but it is possible. The shot would in my opinion not be possible as it is by swimming towards or into the school! 
 

But yes, I guess there always has to be some „cheating“ involved if people don‘t understand how a shot is made. 

HaHa so funny your picture is great as the fish is coming onto you in the formation while the OP claiming know it all and harassing people thinking otherwise shows pictures (in the other thread) where either fish is running away from him or he is successfully braking the formation 🤣🤣 so much for understanding the fish 🤣🤣

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

 

It does not matter diffuser or not at distance every light is a point source and what matters is pure power

As per backscatter test the retra pro max are gn22 while the sea and sea are 32 insert a diffuser and you are still higher than 22 so the sea and sea have indeed more power which was the same before. 

 

Sometimes spending more money results in the illusion things are better however this is simply due to lack of rigorous test backscatter measures are accurate and bring things in check credit to them

 

Strobes like retra are interesting at near range where however power does not matter is more about not having hot spots

 

At distance bigger strobes like seacam and oneuw will have better results simply because of higher power so if your focus is big scenes wide angle that would be the way to go

Oh hello, I thought I’ve got a privilege of being on your ignore list 🤦‍♀️

I wasn’t talking about Retra Pro Max in my post. You may want to take a class of cognitive reading especially before insulting other people by telling them to take physics. 
 

I was talking about strobes without diffusers. From some reason the max version has diffused glass from what I see while the previous generation Pro X has a clear glass. 
 

now you take physics and read something about photons travel from the concentrated light source - a bulb - vs traveling through the diffuser. You may get surprised. 

On 5/28/2024 at 10:57 PM, ChrisH said:

 

 

In my experience, a circular flash tube gives the best quality of light. I have had Sea&Sea YS D1 and D2 some years ago and upgraded them to the first generation of Retra Pros. The difference was amazing and worth every penny (quality of light and built quality!). I never looked back!

 

Haha funny I share exactly the same experience! I too switched from YSD2 and YSD3 to Retra Pro X 2 years ago and boy oh boy what a difference! Much more pleasing light! 

FWIW I think that other factors make or break the photo than the power itself. For like large landscape like fish shoal etc definitely something that pierces the water without diffuser will provide clearer better results. Cheers 

18 minutes ago, ChrisH said:

I am afraid to say I think you are just overcomplicating the things here. 
 

For standard wide angle lighting you just don‘t point (!) the strobes at the subject (angle them inwards). You just leave them pointed forward and increase or reduce the distance of the strobe from the housing until you have an eaven light on the subject and backscatter is reduced a lot. 
 

That is all. And that is what is ment by „using the edges of the strobe light“. Just a simple term to state: do not point the strobe directly at the subject!

 

It does not say or mean that you are not hitting the subject with two strobes overlapping or what you maybe feel ist the center of the beam. 
 

Its just: dont point the strobe directly at the subject. Nothing more. 

No worries @ChrisH, off course you are right and contrary to the original post you can actually explain it. OP doesn’t understand the term ‘lit by the edges’ the same as 99% of photographers refer to this technique and that’s alright, everybody has their own vocabulary. He shot the image with flash using just that ‘lit by the edges’ technique he just doesn’t know it. Peace ✌️ 

41 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Divinycell is a commercial name for pvc closed ceall foam, exactly as Delrin is a commercial name fo Polyoxymethylene or POM.

I had avoided going into the technical details of density and thus depth resistance since 99% of the people here are recreational and use Stix.
You used a very good but extreme and therefore expensive version. I have used much lower densities that still resist 150 meters and cost 1/4. Also you bought a board the size of a door. We're talking about chunks of a few tens of centimeters here.
 

Interesting, do you have buoyancy data and name for material you mentioned? My google search for Delrin POM brought metal replacement material which I guess is not it 🤷‍♂️

"Delrin® acetal homopolymer (Polyoxymethylene POM) is the ideal material in parts designed to replace metal."

20 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Basically all the floats we see (pro & DIY) are made of closed cells pvc or pet foam. Closed cells is the key feature as it doesn't absorb water.

 

It's a very cheap material that automagically become expensive when you add the words "underwater photography" near to it 🙂

 

Problem is that normally is sold in 2m x 1m tables... This material is commonly used for boat decks so if happen you have a small boatyard nearby you could get some cutout for free... 

 

Edit: oh I forgot: it is perfectly cut with a small hacksaw or cutter and shaped with sandpaper as if it were balsa wood.

Actually mines are made from Divinycell HCP30 and it wasn't cheap by any means... 600EUR delivered for 1730x850x50mm ... offers 0.825g/cm3 buoyancy with operational depth of 190m and crush point 300m. Used for submersible devices and mini submarines . Yes, the cost of floats then comes down to like 10EUR (one video light) or 25EUR (EMWL incl screws etc)  but it's material only, no tools no time etc.

 From commercially available I found StiX material change buoyancy with depth so it collapses under pressure in regular depths of 50m while Fotografits own label doesn't. So it seems not every closed cell mats are equal.

https://fotografit.eu/products/63-floats-for-arms/

22 minutes ago, shelbyrose said:

Thanks for tagging me @Davide DB! Excellent example. @RomiK are the custom floats you're using on the endpoints ones that you designed yourself? 

Designed and carved out with my hands (and tools)! 😁

10 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Nice job indeed.

A good example for @shelbyrose

 

out of curiosity, did you ever filmed with the EMWL? Any sample on the net?

 

Thanks

Thanks, the hardest thing as always is to come up with the concept, materials etc and the rest is just labor. But boy my head is tired! 🤣

No videos with EMWL yet. I use it not on tripod but in the water column and the amplitude is just to big for anything meaningful to come out 🤷‍♂️. This is the type of shots I am using EMWL for in the water column.

I will test and tweak all of these next week in Red Sea and I thought I would share the freshwater test results. 

All setups:

- Sony A1 in Nauticam housing

- Shinobi monitor with 750bat in Nauticam housing

- Retra Pro X with supercharger

- Weefine WF074 Smartfocus 10000 with custom floats

- Nauticam 200/70 and 300/50 buoyancy arms

- Nauticam clamps with shackles and triple 

Setup 1:

- with 90mm F2.8 macro and port

- Retra LSD

Setup 2:

- setup 1 + EMWL 130 with custom floatie detachable underwater in case of need 

Setup 3:

- 28-60 with flat port

- Nauticam WWL-1B

I am happy to say that all three combinations are neutral to few grams positive in fresh water so I will add just a little bit of weight to balance it neutral in the saltwater. I could shave video lights floaties but I would like to keep this neutral for fresh water. 
 

Most importantly because the endpoints are neutral as well as EMWL the rig does not fight different angles and is completely agnostic towards the lights placement.
 

So the system is travel friendly as I don’t need to cary redundant arms or floaties and  what can I say - I am quite happy and hope this will help anyone with similar sized components 🤙. 

12 hours ago, ChrisH said:

Key for Split-Shots is finding an interesting subject above and (!) below the surface. You can only get both sharp by increasing depth of field as much as possible. Focus point needs to be set on the underwater part and the part above water needs to get sharp with depth of field. That is where the wet lenses might struggle and a fisheye makes things easier, as the depth of field should be much greater. But even with fisheye lenses it is most of the time necessary to close the aperture as much as possible (f18 and smaller on full frame sensor).

 

A big dome helps a lot. If used only for split shots, I think a large acrylic dome could work, but I would not use it as a main dome port underwater because of their buoyancy and the constant need to "fight" it underwater.

 

A big glass dome port is in my opinion the most versatile solution: it can handle fisheye, rectilinear lenses, split shots and the 8-15mm fisheye can be made more versatile with a 1.4 TC. A big dome is not easy to travel with, but it is all I need for almost all use-cases and thus the only big item I need to bring. Add one macro-port and two or three extension rings and you are set for almost everything.  

 

The picture below was shot with a Fisheye lens and a small 6" Dome port. The small dome port made it much more difficult, but it can work.

Beautiful Brother! 👏 To me it's even more interesting with sloping water line.

Nice! So bigger body does pay off 👏👍 If only video lights mfg would follow the suit … what is sleek slim body worth when it weighs a ton underwater… any insides on Lithium pack parameters and or vs NiMH re:my comment above @Oskar - Retra UWT ?

1.Could somebody with the new bigger bodies Retra Max measure their negative buoyancy with batteries? My previous generation Retra Pro X with supercharger and bumpers and wet neopren cover show around negative 260g. Thanks!

2. It's going to be interesting to observe the real life performance of the Li-ion battery pack. During a research for NiMH batteries I run across several articles stating that NiMH are better for strobes because the recharge time is shorter. So while Li-Ion are better for constant power devices the NiMH are supposedly better for Discharge and Charge devices which are originally designed for Alcaline or NiMH power sources. Off course the battery pack could be designed with some more circuitry a balancing intermediaries so we shall see. Here is empiric test using standard dumb Li Ion vs NiMh on strobes.

Interesting thread especially with many WACP-C owners experiences which I am still weighing pros and cons to replace my WWL-1B with 🤷‍♂️ when Nauticam themselves answered me they would like me to buy at least WACP-1 🤑 where I don't like the weight...🤷‍♂️

I wanted to chime in re:acrylic for splits as it is tempting for costs and weight but wouldn't it be prohibitive when you decide to do sunsets? Couple weeks ago I briefly tested used Oly setup I got for a friend no flash no nothing and this came up as split with 140mm fish eye acrylic dome. Granted it was used but in pristine conditions and judging my own Aquatica acrylic I have with GH5S it seems to me that micro scratches are unavoidable with acrylic. Invisible for regular shots but may show with sunsets based on subject...🤷‍♂️

And second picture just to add to samples - 180mm dome with A1 and aperture 5.6. Seeing samples above I'd say WACP-C is going to be similar?

wow! the 3:15-3:45 shots are epic! just wondering how long were you finding these...👏

17 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

After positive discussion I have ordered this monitor and should have it next week

Not sure I will be testing it in Grenada as this is a a photo orientated trip and I prefer not to test equipment on trips

 Side by side with Shinobi real world use comp will be interesting 🙂 

yeah, sorry, I don't make much distinction about arms... I have few of those and few of these and don't really know which ones am I using at the moment. Then I am sorry if it would be kind of sticking point.

My wife is entering the world of underwater photography and so I've created a fully balanced neutrally buoyant rig :-). It's Divevolk housing iPhone13Pro and Weefine SmartFocus 10000. I added ultralight arm and one handle and I replaced the base with aluminum profile saving me about 100g (!). So the total to balance was around 900g. First version had just 900g carbon float arm but the issue was that unbalanced endpoints - light -360g and housing -530g were then tilting and fighting each other. So I created this (picture still the prototype phase 🙂 ) , tested in Maldives and it's perfect! Floats are Divinycell incompressible to 180m. Happy diving 🙂 

5 hours ago, Chris Ross said:

 

Hi Roman, if that's indeed your aim then phrases like: 

 

" Are you for real? 🤦‍♀️ bathtub or pool vs the real conditions? 

 

 

I guess folks over at Nauticam have no clue on what to recommend to users of their products... They probably have no clue designing their products either... 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️"

 

really don't fit with that aim.

 

If you want readers to decide for themselves seems like it would be better to say:

 

"I actually prefer to see comparison shots taken on dives of real subjects, Pool tests don't mean a lot to me"

 

I thought Chris, that forum admins are to be impartial. So since you quoted me above how impolite I was what if you would step a little back up in the thread and see that in the topic itself I asked for just samples and no theories no speculations and after his first rude response I asked him again politely and yet he continued in his rambling like some kind of ignorant sociopath? 🤷‍♀️

Nice kit! Would you be willing to share your experience with the UWTechnics strobe trigger? How did TTL perform with which strobes? Thanks!

20 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

 

There is a clear competence gap between me and you. 

I wonder if there is a way to ignore a user so that I no longer see your posts

Goodbye

 

yes there is, the forum has 'ignore' feature. I encourage you to use it 👍