RomiK

I will try to help you to see HDR image using SDR tools 🙈😁 it's not perfect but it may show the spirit of it. I just took picture from the HDR 1600nits screen and converted HEIC into JPEG. While it might not show the luminance it shows details on the sharks back which you won't be able to get and display using SDR approach - even if you would be masking . Plus that luminance creates a real depth for the image but that can't be seen using SDR tools ...

BTW none of you bothered to download and see my .avif image from the other topic (shows zero downloads) - that one actually shows nicely also the point why you need high brightness HDR display... I guess it's difficult to discuss a topic without seeing what is topic about. Otherwise we can continue this discussion in perpetuity as none of the parties seems to understand what the other one has in mind. I am bringing examples at least... but nobody bothers to watch them (disclaimer though - they only show in specific HDR matching conditions - screen, software)

Guys, actually all of you, please read that text on picture one more time and try to put it into perspective. I din't choose it random nor did PCMag guys hunted for the biggest number. The key for you to understand that test and why is relevant for HDR are those percentages of white and that it was HDR signal (whether provided by AppleTV or what IDK)... So please read it again, think it through and hit me again... in the context of what I was saying about why the peak brightness is important for HDR...

So enlighten me... why is that they drool over nits over at PCMag? And why is LG putting out TVs with this anyway? Or is it not LG among the best as they exceed 600nits? Isn't this peak brightness actual useful in HDR world? Or would you prefer to watch 243 nits white screen? I am kinda getting confused 🙂

Your recommendation to watch HDR content on 400-500nits ... what can I say... it just show kinda disconnect between your theory and the reality... You seem to be good to put arguments on paper. In real life though, if it was as you say, OLED HDR TVs would not be pushing range of 1300 nits give or take and the newest wouldn't go for 2000 - even though OLEDs provide pitch blacks. And it would be good for the environment no? Saved energy. Yeah and Apple which obviously have no clue about movies and pictures wouldn't reequipping their laptops and professional monitors with 1600nits screens... Yeah, not really needed for grading HDR movies and pictures🤦‍♀️ But from some reason the market concluded they need indeed the higher brightness to fully capture HDR requested. My samples were from 7m depth with sand rocks bottom and sun above. Really not that many chances for blacks. And so 450nits screen wouldn't be able to display what was it like there even if you would watch it in pitch dark. Technically? Doubt it. Perception-wise? Absolutely not. And so I would suggest to get over the fact that not everything can be expressed in charts and the real world is different. The real world is our eyes and their perceptions. And again nitpicking on my words in pedantic way is like not helping - you knew what I meant by high brightness HDR but you just chose to pick what you liked from it. So thank you for the lecture about the dynamic range but it was unnecessary.

well I offered raw files as you said the resulting images were just overexposed and clipped pieces of garbage 🤣 and that was before we learned you were looking at HDR files on an SDR display ... perhaps you learned something new too 🤣 so perhaps next time refrain from commenting until you actually see the subject of debate in the environment it was intended for - in this case it was high brightness HDR screen in HDR profile and correct software - until you do that the debate held over the analysis charts is pointless, you need to see HDR to believe it. Or perhaps there is a disconnect between what you and I understand by HDR image. For me it is a raw file rendition fully benefitting from high brightness high dynamic range screen, not some 450nits display even if it was 10bit. I take it many people understand by HDR those beautiful sunset images that you can print. But that is more of a tone mapping in my dictionary, not HDR, but we all have our own dictionaries. other than that I believe that the topic subject is exhausted and I am looking forward to Sony's ISO debate in a different forum and different time.

Who was talking about ISO in the thread about HDR pictures ? 🙈 It has nothing to do why we discuss HDR imagery. You just muddy up the topic subject again. You say HDR is of a little to no value for underwater photos so ok, stick to this, sit back, relax and watch how HDR photos will take over the online world the same way as video is doing. It's that simple. No need to muddy up the topic subject. Besides research a bit more on Sony's approach to ISO, you will discover some new world a bit different from what you thought. I won't muddy up this thread explaining you this. So if you have nothing to say to HDR photos and cannot demonstrate that HDR images made from raw files posted would not be better or would be inferior to SDR images made from the same files then it is easy to just stay quiet. All other things you are trying to say just spoil the topic subject and frankly are irrelevant.

This is where and what I had in mind saying that technical analysis do not say the whole story in terms of resulting HDR image. (FYI It just happened so that these images were shot with PP HLG as I was testing different scenarios of using Shinobi for video and picture capture. One way was Slog3 for both video and stills, the other HLG for both and I ended up with something else anyway. It's a matter of (in)accessibility of shin obi settings underwater but we covered that elsewhere on this forum.) But as you pointed out the raw processor does not do anything with picture profile so recorded image still has its 14bit information. And what we do with this information on HDR capable screen is the whole point of HDR grade. So the image may be flat as you shown above but it does not mean that the place where image was taken was flat. There were sun rays traveling through water and over sand, there were bubbles reflecting. On HDR screen we can extract relevant information from the raw file and display them to mimic actual condition. This is impossible on SDR screen and in SDR process as there are limits on brightness and colors available for display we could agree. And then there is a problem in rendering the HDR image as unlike video the still image HDR standards are yet to be written and compatibility wars to be won. So for now it's .avif and instagram even though it has its limit as I shown in my newest post.

The attached file will render perfectly fine on iPhone 13Pro and newer as well as on Chrome browser on MacBook Pro XDR screens. But unlike other HDR images I posted on my Instagram account it will render horribly in Instagram app as well as Instagram page looked in Chrome browser. https://www.instagram.com/p/C50fsLXNkeA/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== It's a good showcase imho of why the HDR photography is going to be the next 'thing' in an online world as the sun reflections and it's intensity on shark's skin are giving (otherwise ordinary) image a new depth. But it also shows this area is still developing. 20240321-113515.avif

Do we have double standards here or was it him who called me idiot and stupid first? When you read this topic from the beginning it was him in his second answer diverting from the topic subject and starting personal attacks: 'you make a lot of random assertions that make me conclude you really don’t understand the topic at all especially how it is implemented as your statement show a lot of confusion' ... and the discussion went south from there. The problem with pedantic characters like him is that by presenting their one-sided views and disregarding other views which they don't know about or disagree with they tend to spoil the mood of the community. Unless you put him on the leash you might as well call waterpixels.net community 'Interceptor121 private forum'. See in this topic case he called the images overblown overexposed only to find out that they were not overexposed at the end. But what a mess in the meantime... he even lies about what he views the images on only to admit that for this and that reason he is not using his HDR monitor... and so he makes flat out statements and package them inside some mud made from technical terms ... and do I call him stupid even at this point?

Great! Then stop being lazy and download that raw file which up until now showed zero downloads and show us all how seriously clipped it is and what a garbage it is. And while at it do it with this attached file which is the one you called garbage - or its avif Now look up Merriam Webster definition of pedantic Now see yourself focusing on highlights and whites at -100 completely disregarding the color profile listed which meant there was a curve thrown at the raw file which needed to be corrected. Not the raw file itself but its version processed with that custom Slog3 curve... See where I am getting? you talk zeros and completely disregards ones... you talk ones and completely disregards twos... one thing for sure - you can't grade HDR image on SDR profiled monitor and rely only on visual tools... that's a nogo 20240319-113107.ARW

he (Massimo) is getting red for sure... but what do you do with a pedantic man who is spoiling the subject? He's unstoppable!🙈

🤣🤣 you are nonstop! 🤣🤣 and you don't even have HDR monitor 🤣 - your screenshots gave you up - just look below 🤣 maybe also time to learn Lightroom interface a bit - or you do have one and run it in an SDR mode without even knowing about it 🤣 dunno which is worse 🤣 You should really refrain from commenting on things you don't understand... and there is a lot of it... that .avif image which you called overexposed garbage, you know the second one with sharks, it is not an art but it is a good demo of the HDR aspect of things. But of course - without viewing it on HDR monitor you will see just an SDR version of it (little lesson for you - .avif includes meta for different displays) and without viewing it on Chrome browser you will see total garbage which is what you probably did. So not understanding what you talk about and kinda lying about the tools seems like a real issue to me... MacBook Pro 14 XDR display Apple XDR Pro Display SDR display ... and a screenshot from you 🤣 ... see, Lightroom when running on SDR monitor will display that HDR range red... 🤣 when you press that HDR button it does not mean that miracles happen and your monitor will jump into HDR mode 🤣 if you use MacBook XDR monitor and using say photography profile P3D65 it is SDR... and then you try to comment on HDR images? What a mess 🤣

I would love nothing more than to stay on the subject, which was HDR underwater photography, but this @Interceptor121 character is acting like a real internet troll. He clearly does not have a display - even if it was a mobile phone - to view HDR images on yet he concludes that the images are overexposed and bad here and there just based on visual tools of software he is using wrong anyway and completely messes up the thread subject. PLEASE someone with iPhone Pro or MacBook Pro 14/16 tell him that the .avif posted here are not overexposed so he could give it a rest and stop annoying argumenting why it can't be... And you @Interceptor121 why don't you finally post exact make and model of the displays you use to judge HDR content. Nothing to be ashamed of if you have the right tools. And if not why don't you just shut up? It is simple as that. And in all your greatness 🙈 you failed to discover a little dirty secret of the test image above and that is that it was shot in (by you for stills despised) SLog3 profile and processed using custom Slog3 to P3 LUT.... You just can't understand and process in your head that the things can be done a bit different in this world 🙈

Uh oh it’s worse than I thought 😂😂😂 I’ve tried to help but no more 🤦‍♀️ you really are full of …. Listen it’s ok to say you can’t afford to buy stuff but do not hide your own inability behind a million reasons why this or that could or could not work 🤦‍♀️. Off course you can’t see damned sh.. as you don’t have the monitor to see so you you conclude in your own little brain that the things just can’t be 😂😂😂 but that’s ok we all need to live in the world of trolls … 🤦‍♀️

btw I've had a feeling that you will try to respond with lots of your - ehm - arguments (🤣) so before you do here is a demonstration of those Lightroom visual tools in practice. Here is Tiger ZOO in SDR, how the Lightroom displays SDR and visualize HDR and off course HDR image in attachment 🙂 null 20240319-113107.avif

OK I think I know now where you have problem - you seem not to have the right tools to develop in HDR yet you have a good read of theory and so you think it's where you want to give advice. The problem is though that without HDR display - you still did not say what brand and type you have available - all these reads about HDR are just reads. As you mentioned that you didn't like resulting .avif from your grades - it is because you grade your raw files blind. You can't go by the visualizations tools in Lightroom as their intended purpose is from other direction - to show where your HDR image may have problems on SDR screen (or in JPEG). We both will probably agree on that the photography is not about the mathematical formulas, stops and corners but it is an art of light and double that for underwater images. So when grading image for HDR you just need to see what you are doing. See these images will spring to life if processed for HDR (you could have attach its raw files btw) and the water surface will look quite different from what you think it might. Once you will have the right tools available you will see that the world of HDR is a bit different from what you thought you knew. And then with the level of your expressionism you will be able to offer excellent analysis I am sure. Good luck.

OK! Challenge accepted 🤣. Why don't you post here some of your raw file where you really don't see an HDR sense for me to take a crack on it. In the meantime why don't you indulge yourself in attached raw file and try to make a jpeg out of it which would at least try to be close to an HDR version attached here as well. Here is SDR jpeg for others to see: And here is an instagram link to an HDR version https://www.instagram.com/p/C5vKWesNI0n/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== (must view it on Chrome browser and HDR monitor or instagram app and HDR phone) Just to be fair tell me what tech are you using so we don't have false expectations. We have same cameras - A1, I use Apple Pro Display XDR for image adjustment and iPhone13Pro for mobile platforms. And so we could make proper assertion as to who does or does not understand the topic 🤣 20240319-112116.ARW 20240319-112116.avif

🤣 you haven't even try have you? 🤣 yet you already form opinion 🤣. Listen, you need real HDR screen to edit and view. It means Apple XDR on MacBook Pro, iPad Pro or XDR display (studio display won't cut it really), not many good HDR LCD monitors with brightness in range of 1600nits out there and you need that because black on LCD isn't really black, OLED TV will do fine or just get a phone with bright HDR display and Lightroom on it. Any reference desktop monitor you have from the past won't really cut it. You need that brightness to enjoy and see what other viewers on their iPhones and Samsungs will see. Then take any of your raw files from the past and play. The best if they include water surface. And you will see how strong of a use case underwater photography is for HDR. Images will brighten up like you'd be there again. Good luck 🤙 Btw if you ask Siri what 'adobe' is she will answer with some clay kind of material... That's how significant is Adobe as a company for the world. Yet Instagram is used by billions so to say that 'Adobe has been supporting HDR for photos since some time now' is like an empty argument really... so many great technologies has been introduced in the past but unless you get people using them they are just that - technologies. And the truth is that Instagram brought HDR photos to the masses.

As of the end of March Instagram supports serving HDR images. You must be on an HDR screen equipped phone (such as iPhone X and later) or on desktop with HDR monitor (such as OLED TV) and Google Chrome browser (Safari as of today don't support this). This image is SDR jpeg. For HDR version you either have to head over to my Instagram https://www.instagram.com/p/C5nr1kMNu8u/ or download attached file on your HDR phone (iOS Photos app will display fine) or desktop and view it with Chrome browser. Some images will benefit from HDR immensely (such as this type of cenote image) others not so much or a bit (especially those shot with full strobe power without water surface background). Either way the HDR revolution is here (power of social media 🙂 ) and all of us shooting RAW on big sensors will benefit from it (phone and gopro shooters not so much). As well as consumers of our images 🙂 . Cheers 🤙 20221212-141719-TajMaha.avif

I vote this best answer 🙂 . I would add one variation and that would be image with strobes and natural lights. Strobed pictures fall within 1) and 2) and natural light wrecks etc being a 3) as they could take ages and still not being an art 🤣

you've got message

Shinobi does monitor on the LUT - you either import your own and let Shinobi interpret it or send a LUT through (which Sony A7x can't do) and choose native. The difference between Ninja and Shinobi the way I understand it is that by applying the LUT in Ninja also the exposure tools reflect on the LUT while Shinobi exposure tools reflect on clean signal coming from the camera and LUT is being used only as a monitoring tool. So Shinobi is a better monitor than Ninja. As for bulk it would be great for readers to understand that they are going to add bulk to their setup one way or another as the Chinese bricks need buoyancy balancing and so it is much much better have bulkier but neutral monitor then slim brick and compensation on it or elsewhere. Because good balanced rig is not neutrally floating total. Good balanced rig ideally consist of weight neutral components - housing, strobes, lights etc. Only then you are not fighting gravity while shooting at various angles.

Yes, I don’t question their topside products 👍 all of them Chinese work somewhat ok and do support LUTs. Just the underwater interpretations of them - they shovel that Feelworld and others into waterproof envelope and sell. And borrow specs from topside products. Kraken and Weefine the same thing. Off course none of them support LUTs or firmware upgrades as there is no slot out SD card or attach USB. Kraken did not bother to answer this directly but Bluewater Photo relayed and the answer was clear. No way. Good luck. The help of monitor is awesome.

🤣 I wouldn't take you for a person accepting Chinese specs at face value. Let me know their answer when you ask them 'how' (they take LUTs). My bet is on deep silence 🤣. And if you think it through try to imagine how would they take them 🤣. You already have the best monitors - just buy the housing.