My new DS-125 doesn't sync correctly, or does it?!

Hi,

This is my first post at wetpixel and I've just finished two dives with my brand new digital uw photo system. I've had two analogue systems before though but I'm still very much an amateur.

I have an Olympus 7070 with an Ikelite housing and a DS-125 strobe. It's connected via a TTL cord.

I was diving (yesterday) in the Swedish west coast. The visibility was OK to be Sweden but it's of course really bad compared to exotic diving spots.

OK, my problem is that when I followed the settings that Ikelite recommends for my strobe and camera, 90% of the pictures comes out pitch dark. Not a single piece or information in them. Under my first dive, after taking around 40 shots (all pitch dark) suddenly 5-6 where OK. Then again it all turned black for a few more shots, then a couple worked and then just black.

The strobe was lit in all of the shots. My guess is that it was synced too late. I got the impression that the camera first took the shot and then the strobe was lit.

I started testing at 3-4 meters, and continues testing to about 20m deep. It was completely random if I got pitch black or not. Even at the same object.

Ikelite's recommendation is:

- Manual mode.

- Largest F-stop (minimum aperture)

when shooting macro, so I selected 11.

- 1/100

- External Flash

- Slow (Slow 1)

- ISO 80

I used the diffuser on the strobe. I use a small focus light. I also tried with and without the strobe pointer light. The result were random. Well, mostly pitch black.

Before my second dive I examined all the settings but could figure out what was wrong. Instead it set the camera in it's uw-macro scene mode.

Now, the strobe was perfectly synced in all shots (at least 95%, can't remember).

Most of the shot were blurry but I think the main problem was that I was moving in the water while the autofocus was trying to focus etc. I'll save this for another thread. ;-)

The problem with the scene mode is that I want manual control over shutter speed and aperture. So, it was better than nothing, but what the heck was going on when shooting in manual mode!?!

One difference may be that I had selected Accesory UW-house in the scene mode but not in the manual mode... Should that really make such a differernce? Anyone knows what that setting really means!?

When I check the exposure settings, I can see that the main difference between my manual mode setting and the auto scene (macro uw) was the macro uw had selected a shutter speed at 1/60 (on all shots). The f stop was from 2-8. My best shot (almost OK, yes I'm picky) was taken with 8 (which is as expected and the main reason why I want to shoot in manual mode so I can force 8 or 11 f stop).

FYI, I tried to shoot a couple of shots in all automatic mode. Hehe, the shutter speed that was selected was 1/2 and my photos were totally green and really blurry. Impossible to see what it is. ;-)

Anyone has any ideas about this!?

I'd be happy to attach any photos in case that would give any clues.

/Peter

Do you have the strobe set to TTL?

Does it work topside?

Karl

Do you have the strobe set to TTL?

 

Does it work topside?

 

Karl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, the strobe DS-125 was set to TTL.

Note, that the strobe (well I got clear pictures) worked perfectly when the camera was set to the uw-macro scene mode, but was synced incorrectly (but it was fired everytime!) on 90% of the shots when camera was in manual mode. Again, the external strobe fired in every shot also in the camera's manual mode, but almost all pictures ended up pitch dark.

There flash setting in the camera was set to external and slow (I didn't set this, it is forced by the camera, my only choice is between slow 1 and slow 2) in both modes (manual and scene).

I don't know what topside means!?

I tested the settings in my living room the evening (after turning down, not switching off, the lights in the room) before the dive to make sure it was working. I also fine adjusted the strobe and focus light angles. I had no problems when I got it all right. I have yet to test it again.

/Peter

IF it worked topside(out of the water before the dive) in manual exposure mode, but not underwater it is probably a bad/wet sync cord. Sync cords are very touchy.

As far as why you got pictures when not in manual mode, that is not because the flash was working, but because the camera set the exposure for ambient light. Thats why your pictures came out blurry - it set a very low shutter speed.

You MUST have the new digital sync cord with blue identification band. We have had several instances where the connector gets pushed out of the camera hot shoe slightly as housing is closed, preventing contact of the electrical pins. Some camera shoes are evidently tighter than others, or maybe our shoes vary, making some connectors too easy and some too hard to insert............

If the camera is in manual mode, the strobe should be in manual mode. Try setting the strobe to FULL or 1/2 power, then take test shots at every f stop you can set the camera to and examine the results for which is the best exposure for your setup. be sure to keep the rest of the camera settings the same and keep the same distance for all shots so you now the right exposure for that distance.

You can repeat this at different distances to get a table of settings that work for you at specific strobe settings/f stops. Now you'll be prepared with a set of known good manual settings to use in a variety of scenes.

Good luck.

IF it worked topside(out of the water before the dive) in manual exposure mode, but not underwater it is probably a bad/wet sync cord.  Sync cords are very touchy.

 

As far as why you got pictures when not in manual mode, that is not because the flash was working, but because the camera set the exposure for ambient light.  Thats why your pictures came out blurry - it set a very low shutter speed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your thoughts.

Maybe the sync cord is bad, but it's still very strange that it worked perfectly in scene mode but not at all in manual mode. In auto mode (underwater macro mode) I had selected external flash in the camera settings. Just as I had in the manual mode.

The pictures I got in scene macro mode were not _that_ blurry. "Some" (not me) would even consider a few of them pretty good. I have attached one of them. They were mostly not that sharp because I was moving too much during auto-focus - snap. And because a too large aperture was auto selected (that's my main concern about auto mode is that I want to force a small aperture, large fstop number, to get as large as possible depth of field).

Those that were totally blurry were the one that only used the internal flash. Fully understandable as the shutter speed that was selected was 1/2 a second!

(wierd I attached a photo but it didn't show up??, well I'll try again!

if it still doesn't show up, you can look at it at

www.beatcreator.com/uwphoto/crab1.jpg

mod: I edited Peter's post to hotlink in the photo using the IMG command

/Peter

If the camera is in manual mode, the strobe should be in manual mode. Try setting the strobe to FULL or 1/2 power, then take test shots at every f stop you can set the camera to and examine the results for which is the best exposure for your setup. be sure to keep the rest of the camera settings the same and keep the same distance for all shots so you now the right exposure for that distance.

 

You can repeat this at different distances to get a table of settings that work for you at specific strobe settings/f stops. Now you'll be prepared with a set of known good manual settings to use in a variety of scenes.

 

Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the tips but I think you are wrong about the fact that the flash has to be in manual mode.

Ikelite claims this on their web (on the Olympus 7070C + DS-125 setup page):

- "Use any Ikelite DS SubStrobe in TTL mode, sync cord required"

- "Select Manual Exposure Mode, then Set Shutter Speed to 1/100 of a second. Aperture to f/5.6"

- "In the camera menu go to Mode Menu, then Camera, then Flash, then select the external flash icon, then OK"

- "Depress the Flash Button, then select lightning Bolt and SLOW"

They even specifically adds:

- "Setting DS-50 and DS-125 SubStrobes to manual rather than TTL requires changing camera to Slave mode. "

/Peter

You MUST have the new digital sync cord with blue identification band.  We have had several instances where the connector gets pushed out of the camera hot shoe slightly as housing is closed, preventing contact of the electrical pins.  Some camera shoes are evidently tighter than others, or maybe our shoes vary, making some connectors too easy and some too hard to insert............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for you comment, but:

I have the new digital sync cord with blue identification band (it says "made in the usa").

It could be so that it didn't connect all the time, but it is not. I know this because in my second dive where I had the camera set to uw-macro scene auto mode, every single shot was good (well ;-)), and during half of the dive I tested to change it back to manual mode (saved in my settings) and fired a couple of shot and again they came out pitch black. So I change back to uw-macro scene auto mode and the rest of the pictures were good (well, non black ;-)).

And, even in manual mode the strobe fired every single time. My unprofessional guess is that it was always fired way too late.

There is a flash setting in the camera when using external flash that says, SLOW. This is always ON when using an external flash. No idea why. But, I still have the option to selecte SLOW1 and SLOW2. I only tested with SLOW1.

Still, why would slow1 work perfectly and auto mode and almost not at all (only in 1-2% of the shots) in manual mode. Note that when I say manual mode, I refer to the cameras manual mode. Not the strobes manual mode.

Again, the auto-scene mode always chose shutter speed at 1/60 and Ikelite's web suggests selecting 1/100. Could it actually be so that 1/100 is too fast for the DS-125??? This sounds crazy to me, but what do I know!?

Is that actually an argument why Slow2 could have worked better?

Still, as it worked topside I don't really understand that?

Or does it operate differently under water?

Does it get confused by the slow autofocus!?!?!

/Peter

Does it work topside?

 

Karl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes it worked topside. The night before the dive I fooled around with it at home in a pretty dark room. I fine adjusted pointer angle and focus light angle. I had a vague memory that I got 1 or tops 2 pitch black shots, but 99% were perfect.

I have not yet tested it after the dives but I will do that very soon.

/Peter

I've been having some problems with my strobes syncing properly as well. My setup is a Nikon D70, Ike iTTL housing, dual Ike DS-125 strobes. I am using the proper dual sync cord (the one with the blue and red bands).

On a dive yesterday, the strobe was intermittently syncing properly and then not. Here are four consecutive shots I took (without changing any settings on the camera or the strobe, only touching the shutter release lever to take the shots, and enough time in-between shots for the strobes to cycle properly - both strobe batteries and camera batteries at full strength).

The settings I used were: camera - shutter 1/30th sec, f/6.3, ISO 400, manual mode. strobe: TTL. The EXIF information on the files indicates that "Flash: fired, strobe returned light detected (3), Auto Mode (3), Flash Function Present, No red-eye reduction.

I took some test shots during the dive while looking at the strobes just to be sure that they fired, and they did. Some pictures turned out fine, some turned out black. I can't explain why it is doing this intermittently, on the same dive, without changing any settings.

Warren, Assuming it has been working properly and that the hot shoe is fully seated, the sync cord is the weakest link in the system. And sometimes when they fail they fail intermittently. And sometimes if you gently pull or push on a failing cord at the point it exits the housing you can get it to work or not work.

Perhaps if you fiddle with the cord at home you can determine if this is the problem. Or just get another cord as you will probably need it in the future anyway.

Also, FYI, just because you see a flash, it doesn't mean the strobe is working properly e.g. you may just be seeing the preflash. To test, take pictures in a dimly lit room or shoot into a mirror in which case you should see the flashes in the picture.

Another thing you might try as a work around is to use manual power control instead of TTL control.

Bottom line, I think it's the sink cord but you need more data to prove it.

Warren,

Shots number 1 and 4 look fine. Perhaps you're shooting very fast and the strobe hasn't recycled on shots 2-3? Or low battery? (are you in cold water, too?)

Lastly, have you and Peter made sure the switch under your housing camera mounting plate is set to DS125 versus a DS50? Not sure if it would make much difference, but I'd double check any way....

David Haas

Warren,

 

...

Lastly, have you and Peter made sure the switch under your housing camera mounting plate is set to DS125 versus a DS50? Not sure if it would make much difference, but I'd double check any way....

 

David Haas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have not. I have no idea what switch you are talking about but I will check it out first thing tonight! Thanks for the tips.

Is it on the plate or on the housing?

What does it do?

I have lots of more info about my above reported problem though.

Unfortunately I've injured my foot so I haven't been able to do anymore diving (and my buddy considers the diving season to be over for him).

But I've done alot of testing in my basement with dim and no light.

It turned out that it's impossible to underexposure with my equipment: DS-125 + Oly 7070 + Ikelite housing.

Either the result is pitch black (not dark or black, I mean pitch black, there is not a single pixel that is not 0=black).

Or the result is correctly or overexposured.

I.e. if I changed my manual settings and went for a longer time and/or larger aperture, I got an OK exposure.

It matter where I point the camera, for instance if I point it at a highly reflective material I can go for shorter time (etc) than if I point it at my carpet. I guess that's pretty logical though. I also guess that that in combination with a slightly different distance to the object was the reason why a few shots were OK during my first dive (when in manual mode), see the beginning of this thread.

I tested with the internal flash, as well as without any flash, and I have no problems with getting more or less underexposure shots. Never ever any pitch black shots (there is always some info in it).

So, the question that I ask myself and all of you is "who's fault is this"?

(by this I mean that underexpose = pitch dark).

My speculations leads me nowhere...

Is it the camera's? (oly7070)

Is it the strobe's? (DS-125)

Is it the housing's? (Ikelite)

Is it the sync cord's? (digital TTL)

Is it me!? (what could I have done wrong!?)

Is perhaps the Oly 7070 very badly suited to work with the DS-125 in TTL mode!?

Does anyone else use a similar system?

Has anyone ever heard of something similar?

How come Ikelite never replies to my long email I sent them weeks ago? ;-)

/Peter

Warren, Assuming it has been working properly and that the hot shoe is fully seated, the sync cord is the weakest link in the system. And sometimes when they fail they fail intermittently. And sometimes if you gently pull or push on a failing cord at the point it exits the housing you can get it to work or not work.

 

Perhaps if you fiddle with the cord at home you can determine if this is the problem. Or just get another cord as you will probably need it in the future anyway.

 

Also, FYI, just because you see a flash, it doesn't mean the strobe is working properly e.g. you may just be seeing the preflash. To test, take pictures in a dimly lit room or shoot into a mirror in which case you should see the flashes in the picture.

 

Another thing you might try as a work around is to use manual power control instead of TTL control.

 

Bottom line, I think it's the sink cord but you need more data to prove it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Peter, I just got the sync cord in June of this year and it had been working fine for a couple of months, then it began failing in the last month or so. Each time I packed the camera in the housing I've made certain that the hotshoe has been fully inserted and the switch is indeed set for the DS-125 and not the DS-50. It does not appear to be pressure related as the strobes appear to have that problem in and out of water, and at various depths. Yesterday at 30 ft and at 120 ft. I'll play around with it some more.

Hi Peter, I just got the sync cord in June of this year and it had been working fine for a couple of months, then it began failing in the last month or so. Each time I packed the camera in the housing I've made certain that the hotshoe has been fully inserted and the switch is indeed set for the DS-125 and not the DS-50. It does not appear to be pressure related as the strobes appear to have that problem in and out of water, and at various depths. Yesterday at 30 ft and at 120 ft. I'll play around with it some more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I looked for that switch but I can't find it!?

Could you perhaps take a picture of it?

/Peter

It should be at the side of the black housing for the TTL electronics (which is at a 90 degree angle to the polycarbonate backing of the housing). There is a label marked DS-50 / DS-125. I'll post a pic of it later when I have a chance.

I just realized you have an Ike housing for the C7070 - I'm not familiar with that housing as it may be different than on my D-70 iTTL housing.

Warren has Nikon D70 iTTL housing with teh switch. The Oly C7070 doesn't have one as this synchs directly through the PCB in the housing.

Sorry about the confusion......two seperate users with different cameras.

David Haas

Warren has Nikon D70 iTTL housing with teh switch. The Oly C7070 doesn't have one as this synchs directly through the PCB in the housing.

 

Sorry about the confusion......two seperate users with different cameras.

 

David Haas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

;-), OK thanks for the info. Well it was good that I unmounted the housing I realised that there was lots of salt crystals that had survived my first rinse.

How do you rinse your uw housing etc? In warm water? Cold water?

Do you press the buttons on the housing while rinsing? I realised that if I didn't I could not get rid of the salt.

/Peter