FX1 & White Balance Issues

I am looking to here from folks who have been doing some shooting witht he FX/Z1:

I have a good understanding of the principles and lots of experience with underwater manual white balance in the world of DV. I have now spent about 2 weeks underwater with my FX1 in a Phenom Housing using the Amphibico white balance slate. So far, i have not been able to obtain good white balance in both shollow conditions and at depths (50 to 90 feet).

I am consistently getting too much green in my shots. Even in great vis and very blue water such as the bahamas, water is recording as greenish and grey sharks are green sharks. I have tried changing angles of the slate to adjust for light temperature and also holding it closer and further away. The red flip filter does not seem to help much because the FX1 is so "good" at "balancing" through the filter.

Has anyone run into similar issues white balancing with HDV? If so, how have you overcome these. If not, what techniques and priciples are you applying in both shollow and deep condititions?

I have always prided myself in great white balance when using my DV camdorder. I would really appreciate any feedback to help me return to that good feeling:)

-shawn

HI Shawn, yep i am having same problems...

I used the same slate as you, then went to my old white slate. Still same...

What bugs me is that the colour looks great on the playback monitor of the camera, but when i input to computer everything has the same green cast you describe! Very annoying.

I am downconverting to DV from camera into computer. Are you doing same? Or are you downloading HD? I still don't have my HD software...was mailed in mid Nov...(thats a whole nother story!!!!)

so i am not sure if it looks the same in HD as it does in downconverted DV.

I have spoken to Wagsy about this and he does not have this problem. He says all his colours are great. On my macro/close up shots its not bad, but WA is terrible.....

I wonder if maybe we have some sort of camera problem?

M

Mike,

Boy this sounds familiar. I am also waiting on my editing software and hardware. Rigth now I am running the footage directly to an HD Tv via the component out on the cam. This should presereve the color (hd to hd). Like you, my macro stuff is great but wide angle sucks....green and lack of color. I wonder if this is an FX1 issue (isn't wags using a Z1?) Do you konw if Wags is using the same techniques as us?

I am beginning to wonder if this is an HDV issue. I met a guy on my last tirp who is using the FX1 and no longer uses his slate. He "balances" on red sponges in the reef and his stuff comes out really blue (too blue if you ask me)...but still much better then my stuff. I would be really intersted to hear from other folks to see if this is a prevalent issue. I would be really bummed if it is an FX1 problem.

thoughts?

shawn

my camera is the Z, Wags has the FX (PAL)

i still need to run the test of sending my footage out to my 950 and then into computer to see if it looks different....

HI Mike / Shawn.

You are not alone there. I find that you need to over warm the white balance quite abit to get rid of the green. I was using the slate, now I just point it at coral, sand whatever till I get my colour close if I have no success with the slate.

Most of my shots have been in greenish water so far anyhow but I still have been getting nice blueish shots out of it.

Looking at it on the camera LCD and TV it looks fine but once in the computer it does look abit different.

The computer screen will always look abit different to what the camera shows up unless the screen is matched. I watch it on a LCD computer screen and on a normal computer screen and it looks different on each screen.

HDV also is very easy to color correct when editing so now worries about fixing the shots up.

Get into the PP1 settings and boost the color phase up to +7 and the color boost up to +5 on the camera. Give that ago and see how you go. Color phase works like this.

( - = more green + = more red ) The there is also the White Balance shift, crank it up.

Make sure you put the camera into manual white balance mode A or B before you put it into the housing. If you leave it on auto it can change by itself during the dive even though the housing lets you manual white balance. Make sure you can see the white balance icon on the right of the screen.

Im finding that HDV will white balance and shoot exact like it looks down there where as mini DV cannot white balance and shoot like that without a filter. So try pointing the FX at something else to trick it with or without the URPRO filter in to warrm (red) things up abit.

Im taking it out tomorrow and the water may be even blue ....let you know how it goes. Im going crank up all three boost settings.

Wags

Wags,

It is comforting to know that I had not just forgotten how to white balance. Your suggestions sound good.

I actually messed around with the PP1 settings last night. I went in my basement and turned my tv to a blue screen and turned off the lights. I then tried white balancing in my simulated underwater environment:) If in fact my water simulation is reasonable, I found that balancing on reder objects helped. Strangely however, I found that shifting the WB to the positive turned things more green. Shifting to the negative made things more blue. I didn't test the color phase shift and will give this a try.

My thought is however: should I need to do all these adjustments vs. just finding the right slate to balance off of? What we need to do is go down with a bunch of laminated sheets of paper of all colors. then balance and record both the color chart and a wide view using each sheet of paper. Try at depth, mid and shallow. Try with red filter on and off. After recording each teast with each color marked, we should be able to find the best color. We can then tweack by adjusting camera settings. We then seek to make a slate of this color.

Unfortunately I don't live near the water so It would take some time for me to arrange this. Any feedback on this approach and any volunteers?

-shawn

What about trying different filters.

Maybe the green water one or Alex's magic filter.??

Just an Idea

Will I have this problem with the A1E

Dive safe

DeanB

Interesting suggestion. Filters are subtactive however so if we are trying to "add" red, it is only partial fix. I believe the white blance function may boost the colors that are perceived as missing (red mostly).

I am wondering if this is a Sony issue or a HDV issue. HDV is 4:2:0 (vs. 4:4:4 of broadcast HD), where luminosity (4) and blue gain (2) are used to approximate the red gain (0) (really technical and I can't claim to understand it). In water, I wonder if the algorythm use to approximate the red (which is largely absent) does not have enough information to reconstruct a more saturated red image. As a result, it may do as it always does underwater (boost the diminished green and red channels) but since the red information is insufficient to reconstruct it, the green only comes through. Hence, you get a green image. I am guessing on all of this, so someone who knows what they are talking about, please correct me.

Another question to folks: my initial impressions is that the HDV footage is far crisper, much better low light performance but seems to be lacking in color saturation...which would again tie back to my 4:2:0 theory. When I compare really nice DV footage of a colorful reef at say 50 feet to HDV footage, the image seems less crisp but more saturated. Am I making this up...crisp but less filling?

Dean, if this is a HDV or Sony issue, I expect you too will have this issue. I think Wags suggestion of boosting color, shifting the color and adjusting the WB gain in the PP1 settings could be very useful as these functions are "additive"...that is they are adding red vs what a filter does which is subtracting blue or green. Our issue may be that we need to add in information.

I final thought on thie significance of this issue. I think the HDV performance has exceeded the DV performance in most categories:

-Deep water (low light)

-Low vis (low light)

-Open blue (crispness and clarity)

-Shallow reef (crispness and clarity)

-Mid reef in low vis (low light)

-Night diving (excellent exposure control)

-Diving with lights (all reasons)

I think were I am seeing it struggle most is when there is adequate light and good vis (low light and crispness not an environment issue). This would be a reef at say 50 feet for example with 80 foot vis. In this case the you do not have a lot of red light. Under these situations, the color saturation and WB issues I have seen to be most pronounced. So, if this is what you shoot mostly, then this will be more significant.

Anyway, would love some more field test results for people out there using HDV (Sony?) and what they are finding with their white balance.

-shawn

DanB just returned from Komodo with his Light & Motion HDV set up. I would be intersted in hearing if he has view his footage on the monitor/tv and what his white balance experience has been.

I've heard several times that Manual White Balance on the Sony HC1/A1U does not work. People have been using the Outdoor White Balance setting instead.

I wonder if this is related......

The HC1 issue is really about lack of access because of no assign button. The A1 issue has been lack of housings which have provided access to the assign button. The efforts on housing manufaturers to access the wb electronically have failed as well. I have not read much about this "green" issue and the A1 but that may be just a matter little field results so far. As it is HDV, I woudl expect it may have the same issues.

I will tell you now, the only white balance method that I have used for the past 6 years, since I discovered it. A little background first. I've been shooting DV with a TRV-900 in a Bluefin Pro V-900 housing since about 1999. I have been shooting HDV with an FX1 for a year with an Aqua Video housing, and for the last 5-6 weeks with a Bluefin HD FX1 housing. I shoot almost every weekend in usually clear South Florida waters, and many other exotic locations with over 600 dives shooting video.. I've tried white cards, sand, corals, etc., trying to achieve the best manual white balance. I did some research on white balance to learn what it was. Basically it is telling the camera what is "white". Once it knows what is white, it can accurately calibrate the rest of the colors. All of this is dependant on the color temperature of the light source, as to "what is white". Guess the MWB method yet? Various lights have different color temps, and so does the sun, depending on the angle, time of day, depth in water, clarity of the water, quality of the water, cloud cover, and many other factors. I manually white balance on the sun or on the brightest part of the water's surface, always using the color correction filter, from whatever depth I'm at. Make sure you're properly focused first, and zoom in if you need to. I also re-balance often, as the natural lighting changes, and rebalance when I'm changing depths. I am a award winning videographer, and all my productions very rarely require any color correction. All my friends think I should be a millionaire by now from selling videos, as they say my work completely blows away anything the've ever seen on TV. Getting rich from UW Video isn't easy, and my regular day time job that pays for my equipment, interferes with my movie making. Definitely try this MWB method, and I think you'll be sold. There are many myths in books about underwater white balancing. One is that you should not use color correction filters above 20', or below 60'. Both false. I use CC Filter and MWB at all depths between 0-145', which is the deepest I've been. I've shot with and without filters at all depths, and can tell you that the books are wrong, and I am right. I've also been told how well the FX1 white balances in shallow to moderate depths without a color correction filter. Well, I've tested that also, and found that I will always use my CC Filter at all depths, period! I shared my little secret, as I was feeling sorry for some of you and your MWB problems. I hope this will help. This information is correct for the above listed equipment, but should also work with most high quality underwater video equipment.

Dan Deck (videodan)

In addition to my above post:

I do not get green tint with the FX1. The video is about as perfect as it can get using my above posted MWB method. My videos do not require color correcting or changing picture profile settings in the camera. Not trying to disagree with Paul Wags, as I very much respect him and his work, just trying to help everyone out with what I've learned. I do dive in mostly clear blue water, but have also dove plenty of green murky water too. As to comparing DV to HDV, there is no comparison whatsoever. HDV is far better in every way, and every situation I've been in, with the very rare exception of overly fast panning. Colors, saturation, crispness, detail, etc. are all far superior with HDV, at least with the FX1.

Dan Deck (videodan)

SOLD! Dan, I am going to give this method a shot. I have actually stumbled on it by accident but never figured out why or how i had done ti. Now I have the majic formula:) Anyway, I think me and a number of your fellow videographers will be giving this a try shortly.

Thanks again and really appreciate the excellent input.

Shawn

Video Dan, thanks for your input. But i also do the sun MWB from time to time, same results with the Z. My WB methods are not the problem here. I use the 950 and Z1 and get better colours in WA from the 950 than the Z. Why? still haven't figured that out. Glad now to know i am not the only one.

In fact, as i stated before on the screen of the camera itself it looks fine, once it hits the computer it looks green. When i use the 950 it looks fine on the camera screen and looks the same on the computer as it does on the camera....

Until now i was thinking it was something to do with incamera downconverting to DV. Still not sure...

Mike, pretty sure it is not a down converting issue...I am running directly from the camcorder to a hd tv and it is green.

Video Dan, Mike says the sun MWB is not working for him. Do you have some footage you could share that shows a good WB from the FX1 using this method. I am suprised this method works for you and not Mike.

So far the the only other method I have heard that is working is zooming on a red sea sponge from several feet and hittign MWB.

Any follow up thoughts?

Shawn

Yep, not a downconverting issue. Got some software today and tried it out on a different computer with a different screen. Still same on both HD and DV....

grrrr

Wow interesting posts there guys.

Well I went out today on the beautifull Ningaloo Reef which was flat, no wind, looked great ontop, but once under the water it was..............b..l....u.......pea soup green with some kind of yellow mixed in. Real strange. We are not blessed with clear water over here. Hope we get some blue stuff soon.

Anyhow it as a good test in green water so I cranked the settings up and gave it a try to see if I could improve the image in the greenish water. Boosting makes it worse, so I will try the negative approach next time.

Shawn could be right about the 4:2:0 vs. 4:4:4 thing. I went off and compared some shots that were shot at the same time as my 3CCD mindv setup and yes minDV's image is far less crisp but more blue colour saturated.

Now I sat down there today white balancing all different kinds of ways but could not get all the colours a nice rich colour contrast. I can get all the colours perfect except the water background or I can make the water background more blue but then the subject colours are wrong.

In clear blue water though it's alot better, I have taken some great material in the past.

I then found that by kicking in colour boost on the LCD or TV back home will make things greener. So I will crank the colour boost down -5 in the camera and white balance warm to see what I get.

In general I balance on whatever till subject is the right colour/contrast in the LCD as even though you balance the camera using the sun, slates or what ever, it still might not be what you are after when setting up the subject especially if you are mixing in with some lights for an effect. Manual exposure if also very important as the cameras will shoot hot and you can increase colour sat abit by cranking down the exposure on some shots. DB gain should be set at zero and lock the shutter as well.

Even if its ends up being a HDV thing, it's still fine as it can be fixed up real easy when editing and you don't have to wait for any rendering if you use Prem Pro and Aspect HD even with fades and graphics and most new PC's can render Mini DV real fast as well now days if you are still working in that format.

I did a corporate DVD a few weeks ago and I shot with the FX1 in 4.3 DV mode and used my sony 3CCD 4.3 camera and edited them together, worked great. Maybe we should do a dive in DV mode and see what we get.

More soon.

Wags

One thing I see is you (Shawn, Mike, Paul) all use the Phenom. While I don't think that is what is causing the problem, at least we can narrow it down. Very sure it is not an HDV or 4:2:0 color space problem. Do you have the WB set on channel A or B? If not, you wouldn't be in Manual WB, and that could give you green video. You also need Auto Lock-Auto/Man-Hold switch set in the center position to Auto/Man. I'm sure your land video does not come out green, so it has to be something is not set right on the camera, inside the housing. Maybe something to do with the electronically controlled WB on Phenom? The Bluefin HD directly accesses the cameras WB buttons, and I get immediate and accurate MWB lock.

Hi Videodan.

White balance is on manual and on A or B.

db is on manual and locked to zero

Shutter is on manual

Exposure on manual

Focus manual

Camera is on full manual and even on PP1 sometimes.

Would you say with HDV you can get the background blue water the same as Mini DV on your shots?

I feel that the camera shoots exactly like is is down there with or without a filter, and yes you can change the look with white balancing where as mini DV needs a filter and then gives more over the top colour/contrast boost look.

For me its only in greeny water and I can fix it up once on the timeline.

Up top I have been messing around with cinemamode and it gives a more colour/ contrast look. Might try that.

Wags