Competition Reform Proposal

After having entered five major competitions for the first time this year. I am beginning to develop a better perspective on how these contest work and some of the inconsistencies that besiege them. Also beginning to understand their is an underlying problems that can blindside you in situations that are created by overly complicated rules and unclear entry instructions, naiveté of creature behavior and by trickery of DM intending to please but violate the EPIC rules.

I think as a community we need to provide input to the major competitions, as to what we would like to see as far as consistency and continuity. I think this would greatly increase participation by consolidating rules, entry file size and format.

Editing is a major factor that makes life difficult for entrants. I have been told by very knowledgeable photo processing experts that anything that can be done in ®Photoshop can be done in the darkroom. But they all need to agree on the same processes that they allow.

I think a universal rules proposal that might be adopted by the major competition would be a good place to start.

Kind of like the EPIC's environmentally Aware Rules that were adopted by many of the major competitions. That might boost entries (less work for the competitor) and you wouldn't have to read the fine print in every competition. Re-editing and resizing each entry for each competition to meet their specific Rules is very time consuming.

I wouldn't want to see each of them identical. They need to have a measure of distinction; I think that the categories definition is the element that could distinguish the competitions. By having unique categories and awarding at different levels would accomplish this. This would still require careful contemplation of choice and assigning of entries by participants in order to compete.

The definitions of "Professional and amateur" need to be clearly defined as far as eligibility whether the competition is for pros or amateurs or by categories but it should be consistent in all competitions.

We could start to build a proposal here, so please jump in and share your ideas and frustrations.

John

Hi John, it's James,

Let me begin by saying I'm extremely pleased to see you making a post here about contest rules clarifications and reform. If it were me posting, I confess I may have just thrown up my hands after that last thread and abandoned the internet entirely...:-)

Just joking of course, but the point still stands - we're happy that you're still willing to jump in w/ your opinion.

As one of the folks that has helped make contest rules in the past (for small contests, nothing as big as BTS) I'm very interested in the outcome of this thread.

Cheers

James

i aminterested in it as well ... as it is probably the amount of hastle to enter contests digitally that stop me from doing so ..

a general basic format would be very nice and definately increase my amount of entries from0 to some.

i would be interested to see what those who enter regularly into competitions have to say.

Interestingly, I have a method using weighted averaging. I will share it when I finish it. The jest of it is that rules would "prioritize" the judging criteria, i.e.

First review: Weed out unsharp, poorly composed images, and poorly output digi files

Round two: Score images based on prioritized criteria. For example,

Weight=5 Degree of difficulty

Weight=4 Composition

Weight=3 Lighting

Weight=2 Uniqueness

Weight=1 Impact

There is a multiplication factor as well, which I'll share next week when I get an example done, and there is also criteria for a tie, and how to select a winner. It is also easy to do and track in an excel file, so I'd think that judging committees would find this user friendly.

This would become published criteria and would force the judges to consider the things that are important in an inage and not so much judge what they like, for example a sea urchin that doesn't move versus a fish being cleaned (uniqueness). The weighted criteria can be whatever the contest organizers decide, but the judges must follow it. There is more to this and I am building a little spreadsheet to show how I would use weighted averaging to better score images. I actually use this tool at work to prioritize options for an idea. It can work. I have heard from many of you that I put in my best stuff, and some of you when you say best means incredible. And they don't even give an honorable mention. That's because there is little quantifiable methodology in judging, just opinions. What would still be an issue is if the judges don't know what constitutes a powerful image. Unfortunately, some who tout themselves as pros are good marketers but not so good photographers. That hurts the judging. Hey, call a spade a spade, but it's the truth.

Contests must also depict a theme if the judges are going to weight their decisions on "patterns", for example. It is totally unfair for us to submit images under a hidden agenda by the judges because that could immediately weed out 75 percent of the top images in the competition. Otherwise judging defaults to the weighted criteria, and judges personal opinions are confined to the specific weighted criteria, keeping them focused on the key photographic attributes we all work for everytime we trip the shutter.

I will post an example when I get this done. The nice thing about this method is that it combines structure to the judging process and also allows the judges to score based on their experience and opinions. It just doesn't allow them to randomly say, "well, I prefer patterns, so thats how I will weight my score", unless of course that happens to be the published theme, in which case the entries would be far lower. That being said, I doubt competitions like BTS and LAUPS will limit their contests to a theme because it will be a revenue killer. The goal is to limit judges confining their decisions to a personal like, such as patterns, or behavior, etc. In the case of patterns, that judge could choose to score high on the impact weight, but would probably score low on the degree of difficulty factor. That's where this system comes in handy.

As for categories, I think that is up to the judges to control that, and mistakes do happen. My personal opinion is that contest organizers do a very solid job in image scrutiny, but it's obvious that mistakes happen.

More to come, sorry for the long post.

Joe

Joe/All,

My emphasis was directed toward the entry process although I believe the judging process is in need of revision as well.

1. Digital images should be standardized ex. 1024pix long side @ 300dpi jpeg

please make adjustments to these if you know a good reason for doing so.

film slides are all the same why shouldn't digital be standardized.

2.Editing White Balance, Cropping, Levels, brightness & contrast, shadows & highlight, dodge, burn and clone/healing brush. I know some will disagree with this but the truth is you can't make a crappy image great. But you can make a really good image great.

3.Rules should be worded in a very similar manor so all the images that are processed would be eligible for all major competitions.

4. Definition of Professional and amateur need to be very clear concise and consistent.

a little help here guys and gals.

Hopfully we can get more input on exactly what this possiable proposal will contain.

Thanks

John

1. yes, most contests give a certain size i do believe. Probably some have different sizes as the judges may be judging on a desktop screen, or they may be projected on a large screen so would need bigger than 1024 i would think. I think 3000on the long side would be better

2. WB-yes

Levels/Curves- yes

Contrast- yes

Cropping- i don't like that idea, so i say no, or of so then less than 10%

Dodge/Burn- no

Shadows/Highlights- no

I like the way the Wetpixel contest ran, two categories, one with just a smidge of PS work, the other with anything goes

3. I don't think you will ever have all the comps agree on a standard, even with pushing them

4. I agree with that one, there def needs to be some sort of line. What is a pro? Tough to decide really. There are many serious amateurs out there who travel extensively throughout the world to some very top dive destinations and do 6, 8, 10 trips a year, taking more photos than most pros. SHould that person be in the same category as the person who goes on one trip every year or two? i don't think so.... Very grey area here

Firstly let me say that I never enter competitions - because I might not win!

However, photography has changed dramatically in the 45 years I have been doing it.

I used to be a professional. In fact I would go so far as to say I was 'king good and live now on the proceeds. However, in my day as a professional, to get good shots you needed to shoot on large format, with perfect technique both behind and in front of the camera, and retouching, whether it be on die-tranfers or later on 20x30cm dupes was a skilled and expensive way of saving a shot that could not be saved by a reshoot.

I brought my skills with me when I started shooting pics for Diver Mag but was often told my pics were too good! How could that be? They were too clean and lacked the integrity of a reportage shot. So I quickly learned to take simple snaps that showed as it was.

Then came digital imaging and Photoshop.

Today photography, quite frankly, is too damned easy and retouching can be done with very little practised skill. So do I clone out all the detritus in the water? Do I make the sea blue when it was grey? Do I combine images?

I remember Jeremy Stafford Deitsch spending three weeks at Sanganeb with a coral head baited to get a shark near it. He could have done the job in one day and put it together with Photoshop if he'd known how!

With this in mind, the original rules for the BG Wildlife Photographer contest stated that only RAW digital files would be acceptable but they quickly changed those rules so that Doug Perrine's Jpegs could qualify (and win).

Thanks to the likes of Alex M, these stylized, retouched-clean pics are now getting accepted as normal by art editors. So we are inevitably going to be drawn down that route. My old pics from the late eighties might not be too good for the mag now!

But where does that leave photography competitions? I believe the final image is what counts but it does seem to me that computer skills have become more important than traditional photography skills.

By the way, I do not consider myself to be a professional photographer now. I simply jump in with a camera and shoot what I can just like everyone else.

Thanks for reading this rambling post! Here is an unretouched pic of a 'king big shark.

With the words of my first girlfriend still in my ear...

"Christ, that is BIG !!!"

Dive safe

DeanB

With the words of my first girlfriend still in my ear...

 

"Christ, that is BIG !!!" 

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You were driving a 60s Cadillac?

John, what is wrong with that guys hand in the pic?

Hi Mike

I was very amused to read your description of Seb feeding the grey reefs by hand and without a chainmail glove in the latest Diver mag. (The guy in my pic has a glove.) Here is a photo of Seb and Bertran after feeding without a glove. Remember...?

Thanks John G for bringing this up.

But where does that leave photography competitions? I believe the final image is what counts but it does seem to me that computer skills have become more important than traditional photography skills.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with John B that you skills with a camera are what is most important for competitions. I think that the BBC Wildlife has decent rules for this (the still won't accept JPGs, unless perhaps you are going to be the overall winner!):

1) You must submitt you RAW file for verification

2) Any photoshop must be limited to whole image optimisation (primarily RAW conversion) with no changes to the content (including no cleaning of backscatter etc).

Perhaps more important is to classify the types of competition. One main distinction is photographer vs image competitions. I think that BBC Wildlife, for example, is a photographer competition and should heavily restrict any use of photoshop (as described above). Also these comps should be open to only slides or high res digital files.

Then there are the image competitions - which should be judged on standard size large A4 (12") or A3 (18") prints (to limit cropping and manipulation to reasonable levels - you still need decent image quality to print this size). Photoshop should be free, but judging should count against overly manipulated or totally santised images. These comps should also have manipulated categories.

It is fine to judge club competitions at xVGA screen res (1024*768 pixels), but this shouldn't be adopted too widely as it allows for rediculous levels of cropping.

Finally the rule that they should all have is: you are not allowed to enter images that are currently involved in another competition (either not yet judged or on display as winners or HC images).

Very good points mentioned.

I agree with Alex that in some contest the sizing of the long side is too short. It allows for too much cropping which takes an original image and can turn it into a completely different image. I think it should be long enough to not allow a horizontal shot to be cropped to a vertical one. Keep the original intent of the shot. Crop as need be after for personal taste and reasons. With some of the contests an individual could crop to a third of the frame and submit a macro with amazing DOF, is that right. SHould judges allow it. Or, as ALex says should they discount for it.

Definitions of "pro". Mike makes some good points. The world traveller has more opportunities to get that unique shot that has strong chances to place in contest. But in the end they still need the skill to capture the frame. What about John B, who used to be a 'pro" does he qualify. I think he answered that himself indirectly. Why would he want to. It would degrade the quality of his work to submit to competing against non-pros. What does he gain by doing that in the end. Using a percentage of income level to determine a "pro" as a guide is rediculous. Why not set it at amount earned from photography in the year. A standard that is used in amatuer golf tournaments. I think it should include work instructing photography at a resort etc. for the same reason Mike mentioned above. You get more chances to get that one unique shot due to the vocation.

Lastly, John Bantin, email me a larger pic of your avatar Robert Delfs spoke highly of you on our trip.

When I played more competitive sports I always said, I don't care what the rules are, as long as we all play by the same rules. IMHO

I think that the pro vs amateur is a confusing one. Pro means so many things to so many people. And there is certainly a very big difference in definition between English speaking people on either side of the Atlantic!

I think that the definition should open vs beginner. With the open being anyone who has won a category in a major uw photo comp (i.e. a competition that attracts entries from more than one country). Beginner - which I don't think is a great word - is everyone who hasn't (i.e. entering your first comp, to someone who keeps getting second place!).

Alex

Over the last year or so I think competitions have already become better at explaining the rules. I entered 3 or 4 competitions this year, and I dont recall any of them being confusing or a lot of work. It's a matter of reading what they want, preparing your image in the format they want, and sending it off. If you need to spend a lot of time in photoshop, you probably shouldn't be entering it.

I do like Alex' idea of doing A4 or A3 only, and I personally wouln't mind if every contest required both prints (or print sized digital files) and RAW files, although I liked the wetpixel/divephotoguide idea of 2 options for every category. One for unaltered (if you allow any altering, i think it sort of defeats the purpose), and one that allows some work, hopefully minor.

I think we're still in an era where digital is being compared and treated like slide/film, and it is being seen as unfair, or unethical to fix problems in images. This even though some pros do just this to make their images more sellable. I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now editting images is seen as totally normal. Also don't think slide images aren't manipulated.

The pro/amateur point is a difficult one because there is no clear boundary. Some amateurs are more skilled than some pros. I personally don't agree with the idea of 'traveling more makes you a pro'. Does that mean that if you live in the Cayman Islands and dive 4 dives every weekend (doing just as many dives as someone doing 5 trips a year maybe) you're also a pro? Are we going to count dives? I think not. The reason it's being brought up has nothing to do with traveling or amount of dives, but with the tendency for competitions to be exotic critter hunts. Some beautifully photographed mundane subject often has less of a chance to win. I prefer the open/beginner method. I would also include honorable mentions in what lifts you out of beginner.

One thing I don't really agree with is Alex's point of only allowing you to send 1 image to 1 competition. I know it's not exactly worded like that, but in practice it would imho turn out like that. It sometimes takes 4-6 months between sending in an image and getting the results. And if you want to talk about benefits to people that travel a lot, this is it. Someone that travels (or dives) a lot probably has a lot more images to send to competitions than someone that does 1 trip and has 1 really nice image. Also, some competitions have you send it a portfolio of 10 or more images, which would make all of those images unelligable for anything else while waiting for the results. I do agree ofcourse that if an image has won a contest, you shouldn't be allowed to send it in anymore (unless the contest specifically allows it, which some do, especially when dealing with portfolios). But I don't see a problem with sending in a image to several contests at the same time. Everyone can do it, so it's a level playing field.

Even though I see how it would be nice if some rules were somewhat the same, I also think competitions should be able to do whatever they want. Some competitions are specifically meant for a certain format, be it magazine, or whatever and if they want you to enter images to match their purpose, it's their right. Don't enter if you don't like it. I definately don't enter some competitions cause I don't like their rules.

Cor

Competition? Or images?

Has anyone produced more evocative images of nature and landscape than Ansel Adams? I interpret his writing as saying that most of the work was done in the darkroom, and that his artistic dissatisfaction with colour was a direct result of his inability, with chemical reproduction, to accurately control colour in the printing process.

Photoshop has given everyone the ability to control colour reproduction.

Does this matter?

Pete Rowlands has been saying for a while that compact digital cameras can produce images that have great impact. Alex M has some examples on his website.

My thoughts are that the technical difficulties that were once dealt with by investment in equipment, both above and (especially) below the surface have been overcome, with a massive increase in the numbers of divers making interesting images. POTW has shown how many people can make "competitive" images.

Perhaps the most democratic answer to competition would be open: submit prints (A4).

I can tell when I have over-processed an image, and I have never had much success with painting out backscatter, unless there wasn't much to begin with. Surely judges can spot this. With a great image (like Doug Perrine's) the technical side doesn't matter: the vision and the light say it all, and you can't do much about that in Photoshop....

.... but Photoshop gives us the technical means to recreate our vision, so that it can be shared.

Of course, since I've only ever entered one competition and never had an image published, this is an opinion that's not backed up with competitive credentials.

Tim

B)

I used to spend up to 20 hours or more on one shot.

Something I learned (painfully) a long time ago is that a badly executed shot of an interesting subject will always be considered better than a beautifully crafted shot of an uninteresting subject.

For example: I once did an ad for the Electricity Council. It was a picture of a secretary leaving a lift (elevator). The model I used was Heather Mills (now Mrs Paul McCartney). After the shoot was over, we had a few laughs and I got her to strip out of her scretary kit and grabbed some shots of her doing so. What what you rather see? The beautifully crafted advertising shot or the snaps of Heather with her tits out? See what I mean?

So an unusual bit of behaviour of a rare animal will always beat a shot of something familiar, and those that have the chance to spend more time in the water will get better results.

When I arrive at a new destination, often I am asked which of the possible dives I want to do. I usually answer I want to do the best one - again and again and again! Alas, because I am with others who have paid to have a diving holiday, I just usually jump in and grab what I can first time, and never see the same site again that trip.

So for me, that is the difference between being an amateur and being professional.

The repetative dives on a site...

I learned about that the last trip. I had done it before to try and get a subject but this last trip to R4 I learned it even more so.

Geographic wanted to go back to a site we had dove for 2 days already. I, at first, was more interested in seeing some of the many other sites. Boy, was I wrong. And glad we went back. Granted there was still much real estate to cover at the site but, I thought I had seen most it had to offer. I saw and found a totally new environment by going back and now really focusing on macro. Seeing subjects I had not seen on the dives before.

Anyway, I digress in that the reason we went back was National Geographic wanted to as they felt they did not have "it" yet. Professionals at work. Me Amateur with much to learn.

I prefer trips where there's multiple dives on 1 site, or even multiple days on a site. Ofcourse it depends on the site Most photo charters on liveaboards do this so I tend to join those. I often need/want several dives on 1 site to be able to find and/or photograph something interesting. But I honestly dont feel like a professional at all. Not even remotely.

I have a well paid non-photographic job already, and for me diving/photography is a relaxing hobby. I may have a professional attitude to it, but I tend to have that to most things. I bet the same goes for quite a few of the people here. You also cant really quantify this enough, which I think is necessary to avoid confusion if you want people to judge themselves a pro or not.

Cor

"I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now editting images is seen as totally normal."

Seems pretty normal to me now! If you want to wait 10 years then fine, but we have the technology to improve images now. Personally, other people's concepts of what is acceptable are theirs. I edit to my own standards (which are those of the RPS nature group - ie not falsifying the inherent natural history information) and would challenge anyone to show me a true image of any scene. The camera manipulates, always has done and always will - you cannot reproduce what we see!

As for being pro or amateur, its a matter of attitude. I take photos to sell. Rarely are these competition images. In fact I'd go as far as to say that we're flooded with stunningly beautiful imagery - its not what you can make a living out of unless you are very fortunate. And other material sells far easier.

But on that note if you want to sell pix (ie be a pro) then you should do it properly - I see too some corners being cut and risky practices from people trying to take images to sell to the detriment of us all.

John you've forgotten the meaning of the word controversial again I see!

Competitions are strange things. Having heard a judge talk about how he and others went about judging, and having seen a lot of competition results, I'm completely baffled.

Hold on...

Heather Mills...Tits out...

John, If you would like to post them on the thread for critique i would gladly have a look and give my views

from "Mmmmm" to "WAYHAY" to "Sweet jesus"

Dive safe

Dean (tit's out for the lads) B