Competition Reform Proposal

Hi everyone,

My name is Kathy Mendes and I'm the coordinator of the SEA Competition, hosted by the Northern California Underwater Photographic Society. I heard about this thread and thought I would try and provide some insider views.

Judging is extremely subjective. I don't think we want to get into telling judges how to place images other than making sure they understand the objective of the competition, and following conservation/environmental rules. Maybe some basic guidelines.

Judging is usually done by a panel, and there is plenty of arguing that takes place. Their likes and dislikes will vary class by class, skill level by skill level and competition by competition. If you don't win under one panel of judges, read the comments of the judges (if available), learn what you can from them, and keep entering competitions.

I believe the topic that John really wants discussed, is more of a standardization of rules and regulations. As someone else mentioned, the R&R's cannot always be standardized because different competitions have different objectives. But there are a few rules that could use some clarification. Again, even these important rules will vary depending on the objective of the competition.

The first is the issue of digital preparation. It would be nice to have some standardization on preparation. File size, file type, color space, how will the images be viewed, etc... How much editing should be allowed? I think that depends on the objective of the class and the competition. I would like to have a class where little if no editing is allowed and another where freedom of PhotoShop is allowed. What a great phrase...Freedom of PhotoShop. You guys saw it here first.

The second big issue is determining the difference between a "professional" and an "amateur." Some competitions allow anyone to enter. The rest of us have been wrestling with this for years. Many competitions have adopted the "40% of income" rule. This rule does not seem to work as well as it did in the past. More amateurs are selling images. Some serious amateurs teach, lead trips where they give seminars, publish images in various media, but still don't earn more than 40% of their income by photography. So, what do we use as criteria for an amateur? What do we use as criteria for different skill levels? What do you think?

Let's get some good discussion going on these topics to provide us some guidelines. I appreciate any feedback.

Kathy Mendes

NCUPS SEA Coordinator

http://www.ncups.org

I don't think you will ever be able to make a rule on Pros. The basic reason is, that photos last forever. Someone might work for Natl. Geo and be at the top of the list talent wise. Retire, and suddenly, his whole portfolio is now legal. Unless the rules start with: "Have you ever, in your life......

As I type this, it occurs to me that perhaps there could be a rule that only photos taken in the year preceding the contest would be eligilble.

And in general, Pros get their work published, yes, every now and then somthing of mine will as well. BTS says more than 5 images published in the preceding year and you're not eligible for their conteset. Sounds about right.

As for the amatuer/Pro question on how much diving one person can do, that's ridiculous. Are you suggesting anyone living on either coast of the US or any Nation for that matter, not be eligible after a given number of dives? Come on, that's so transparent.

One idea that's been mentioned that does make sense would be a third category, advanced or whatever. Win so many contests and you bump up another level. For me personally, I like the idea of taking on all comers. It makes me work harder on my U/W photography.

Rand

In the end is it not simple.

If I don't want to spend time editing shots for contest rules because I feel either the prizes are not worth the effort or, just don't feel like it, I don't enter the contest. (There have been a number this year I can think of off the top of my head) It is their contest not mine, and there are so many contests out there both underwater and above that standardization is not going to be a reality in most cases. Especially with the range of Digital cameras resolutions (I'm drawing from accounting experience and International Accounting standards now and how they still are not standardized) Althought they are working at it. Exciting stuff.

i think the comments of kathy sum it up. Any artistic medium, and i think thats what photography is is subjective and dependent on the tastes, and probably the will of the judges. i, who have had a lucky run, and i think luck, ie judges tastes are the reason. sure you need a good picture and i would hope composition is the formost factor. Buts thats my opinon, some may consider other issues more important. I entered basically the same pictures in the wet pixel and the scuba magazine contests. A picture that won 2nd in one , won nothing in another, and the picture that won 2nd in another contest won nothing in the other. A picture that won hm in one contest, didnt win in our pow contest. The picture i thought was my best won nothing in anything. I think rules and standards are very important, but i doubt they will, and hope they will not have a major effect on the results of our artistic endevors.

KathyM so elequintly put into words what I was trying to say in my first post on this thread. This thread is staying on track for the most part and moving in the positive direction I hoped for to get ideas out and discussed.

From KathyM "Freedom of PhotoShop". You guys saw it here first. 

I also hope that the admin here will jump in and put together a proposal that might at least make the entry process a little more user friendly. Not like we should write the rules for them but make suggestions that would be somewhat standardized. The benifit for entrants would be less work not having to prep images for each comp. The benifit for the comps would be more entries and more income.

Does this make sence?

John

As to the judging...

The first competition I entered was the one at Holborn SAC in about 1989 where the judge stated that all John Bantin's pictures were technically perfect so she was disqualifying them!

Many years later I mistakenly entered six pictures in the BSoUP annual slide competition but did not realise that the judging was done by votes from the audience. My pics looked 'king good but and as you know I have no friends! Nil points!

Never again!

I have been on the panel of judges for several international competitions. What goes on there could make any entrant weep....

It's often worse than the Olympic Committee!!!

(Not controversial Paul? I'm losing my edge in my old age!)

John

No not losing your edge, and I never knew you were a Holbornite too!

i forgot to add my 2 cents on the process. I am not a computer person. It takes me forever to understand the entry requirments and get my submissions ready. Everyone asks for diferent things. This year as most after 1 or 2 contests entrys i just say forget it. I am all for standardizing the entry process to make things easyer for us computer novices.

So I have two questions.

The first is:

If a competition organizer were to put together and post some basics on how to prepare an image for that competition, do you think it would be useful? I'm thinking like basic directions on how to resize to the proper entry size; length, width, resolution, file size. How to change and view your images in the proper color space? Is color space important? I must admit I cannot tell the difference, with "my" eyeball, between Standard RGB and Adobe RGB. Instruction on basics like those where all entries should be consistent. Now, each competition might have their own rules for all those things and need to make changes to fit their competions; and the other organizers will probably want to shoot me because it will mean more work. :-)

The second is:

In slide photography clubs (above water) that I have gone to there is a "Master" skill level. To get to that level you must have met certain criteria and won so many competitions in so many different categories. These guys are the best of the best, but not necessarily professionals. Maybe I'm actually asking for some feedback from some of you that fit that description in underwater photography (you know who you are), would you enter competitions, competing in a Master skill level. Knowing you are competing against your peers, competing not to win free trips but prestige. Maybe a plaque or really nice trophy. Would you enter? Why or most importantly, why not?

Best,

Kathy

P.S. If you reply with a question, I may not be able to answer tomorrow. I will be wearing my conservation/ocean environment hat at the meeting where a California Dept. of Fish & Game task force will be deciding on where to put Marine Life Protected Areas. We (divers) want to make the area in Monterey from the Coast Guard Breakwate to Lovers Point a reserve. We have been working for this for many years and tomorrow may be the day where our dreams become reality.

Kathy, yes i think that a basic tutorial on image prep is a great idea for a competion. A lot of people don't know about things like Adobe RGB and sRGB and just that simple procedure can really pop an image. Also, a lot of people don't know about image size in DPI or length/height. Including a basics tutorial for this is a great way to help out those who might be a bit intimidated when looking at computer speak but who want to enter the comp....

As for the pro/amateur thing: as you can tell by reading here and on DDnet that this is a pretty contentious issue. I like the idea of Novice and Open (with open being open to everyone pros/hobbyists alike). But then how do you define novice? Never ending circle i think. But to include a statement such as "NO PROS" will always invite heavy perusal of results. I remember a contest from last year that specifically included a "no pro" theme and then had a couple of "pros" show up in the winners... I believe the no Pro portion should be gotten rid of altogether.

Personally, if i was running a comp i would want to see all the best images possible and invite all to enter, like the WP contest. I also think this would heighten the prestige of the contest.

And Kathy, best of luck with the conservation issues! i hope it comes out for the best as its a great cause

Then you get comps like BBC, Natures Best etc that are all Open.... with the only real distinct category being a youth category.

Hi Kathy, for the first part, I've no problems with the entry requirements. They may take careful preparation to make sure you meet them all but I haven't felt like it was a reason for not entering.

As for the second question, Ok you got me, it's all about the chance to win a free trip.

Rand

As for the second question, Ok you got me, it's all about the chance to win a free trip. 

 

Rand

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Free trips are cool!

You guys are coming up with all sorts of great ideas! Thanks!

Kathy

Kathy,  yes i think that a basic tutorial on image prep is a great idea for a competion.  A lot of people don't know about things like Adobe RGB and sRGB.......

It would be nice for a (every?) contest to add this, but is the contest really the right place for this? There are so many books and other resources that already explain all this. It's part of the whole digital experience I think. Is it really up to a contest to explain all the details of digital photography, or is a contest a way station in a learning curve?

I believe the no Pro portion should be gotten rid of altogether.

I agree with this. I wonder if most pros would even consider entering a contest. The pros I personally know certainly dont. I think they've passed that station But I would like to keep seeing a novice section, and imho it should be quite strict. Any placing should lift you out of it. I think it gives people with limited experience in photography the courage to enter a contest.

I do still think we should not try and impose any rules on contests. Imho they're not doing such a bad job at all, and it's getting better over the years. We should respect that contests have their own reasons for doing things. It may be better to have a set of rules for the wetpixel contest that other contests could borrow from, like the EPIC contest. Although I thought the wetpixel contest was already quite good.

Cor

as for image prep, we dont need a tutorial, but it would be helpful if every contest had the same format requirements, so we wouldent have to re format every image for every contest.

as for image prep, we dont need a tutorial, but it would be helpful if every contest had the same format requirements, so we wouldent have to re format every image for every contest.

I agree and this was the impetus of the thread when first started. I hope some of the competition organizers are following this thread. It doesn't appear anyone is going to organize a formal proposal to send them. If you know any of the organizational committee members please email the ULR of this thread.

John

I agree and this was the impetus of the thread when first started. I hope some of the competition organizers are following this thread. It doesn't appear anyone is going to organize a formal proposal to send them. If you know any of the organizational committee members please email the ULR of this thread.

John

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John,

As the one who started the thread I would suggest you be the one to forward on a proposal or thread link to the various contests.

You stated to have entered 5 contests so you have email contact information on those. That might make a good start. You may have already talked to BTS about the error in category judging for your entries so they may already know the general thrust of this thread as a result.

Hey, slides were a standard size, why not digital files too.

Cheers

Simple definition of a professional - someone who make a (real) PROFIT from what they do (or really does try to) - apply this to underwater photography and its real oncosts and you will realise why there are very few professional underwater photographers!

Now for my 2cents.

1. Format: I would like to see a standard width, height and DPI set across all comps.

2. Manipulation: Class 1= RAW conversion only, no healing, blur, etc… Class 2 Wide open do what you want.

3. Pro vs. Amateur: This line is just going to blur more and more with time. In the sport of Rowing you get 1yr as a Novice where you only compete against other novices after that you have to step up to the big show. Once you’re a PRO you are always a PRO, face it we are talking a skill set here and that does not fade like physical ability. Definition of PRO: Once you have sold, traded an underwater photo for anything over say $200 in value, you are a PRO. As I read it, I realize this now includes me, so be it. I think you need a clear and well defined line.

4. To keep photo competitions/contest interesting they should not allow any photos that are entered in other competions in that calendar year. This way one person can’t submit the same stunning shot to every competition. They have to pick one competition that their “Sure Thing/s†is entered in. This would give more opportunity for others across the span of comps.

In terms of the RAW file only.

Do we not then need to take it a step further back and dictate the in-camera settings. As saturation/contrast and sharpening can be adjusted there. I shoot in normal mode and prefer to adjust those after as opposed to try and match each one to the dive setting.

Surely, the difference is between getting the camera settings right (and with RAW that does not matter whether you do it at the image gathering stage or later at the computer) and manipulating or retouching the image which is done with a tool such as Photoshop?

No-one cares if you change colour temperature, exposure, contrast and so on but they should care (in my mind) if you change the actual content of the picture.

...but what do I know? I don't do competitions, only judge them on those occasions when I am ready to have a good squabble!

PS. Re professionals...Spot on Paul. There are very few people who make a living from underwater photography. In fact my services as a guest lecture at Plymouth College of Art were dispensed with for telling the students on the underwater photography course exactly that!