Underwater Etiquette

In a recent Scuba Diving article, Stephen F. suggested that an underwater scene belonged to the photographer until he was done shooting. While that sounds nice, I am sure that there must be some limits. On a recent trip to Lembeh, my wife and I were diving with a group from Turkey and these guys were unbelievable. You could see where they were from 100 feet away simply by looking for the cloud of dust where 3 of them were shooting, looking like Custer's last stand. They would literally shoot at least 50 pictures each of some scorpion fish or frog fish or whatever. After shooting for literally 10 to 12 minutes they would then turn around in a big cloud and swim off leaving the poor fish blinded by flash and the water too murky for anyone else to shoot or video the scene. On a previous trip we dove with a couple, both photographers and we worked out a deal, 3 pics each, then go to the back of the line for 3 more and so on until you got one you liked and moved on.

Given the relatively unlimited capacity now of digital cameras, where do you draw the line on how long to shoot a subject, particularly with a group that has 4 or 5 people trying to get something nice.

As I am writing my trip report for Palau I am also wrestling with this issue. 9 of our shipmates where a group from Italy, all guys. On deck they were great, underwater they were a nightmare. Grabbing turtles, touching mantas, stirring up the bottom and doing anything to get a shot.

I spoke with the guy who grabbed the manta and the crew starting hammering on not touching anything, things did improve marginally and they took it with grace. But if anything interesting was found it was 9 on creature and mess when they left. There is not much you can do but wait them out or go another way. If I am first to find something I try to get 3-4 good shots and then back out for others to see. If it is something I am really interested in I will hover around while others look and then go back in. If I was trying to sell my stuff I might have a different attitude.

Photographers have no more right over the undersea world than anyone else - for good or bad!

If I find an interesting subject on my own I consider it mine until I'm finished with it. If the subject was pointed out to me by the dive guide or another diver I will take a few shots and then give it up for someone else.

It helps to discuss the matter before starting any diving. On most trips I go on, the rule is that if something is found that is a target for the dive itself (say, "on this dive we've seen ghost pipefish before"), or something the guides found, you have to share. You take a few shots, and let someone else go. If you want more shots, get to the back of the line.

If you find something cool yourself thats not discussed during the briefing, it's yours. If you want to shoot for an hour, you can. But almost no one does.

For wide angle things are a bit different. Everyone is there to enjoy themselves, and what right do I have to chase someone away. If someone comes into my scene, I just try and take advantage of it. Sometimes I even get their attention and ask them to pose.

If you've got a big group thats misbehaving a lot, it's often very uncomfortable. Ive had that before, and i dont know what to do about it. I think it's the managers or trip leaders that should step forward at that point. But that rarely happens either. It can quite literally ruin your trip.

Cor

Another example of a good question beginning a long and interesting thread....

As a photographer, I agree with the idea that if a guide or someone in the group finds something, take a few pics carefully at your turn, then step back and let others in. As I'm also an instructor, I always try to take my pictures in an 'as obviously eco-friendly' fashion as I can, hoping others will follow the example! If I find something outside of the group, then I'll also photo a bit longer till I'm happy, then share my find with others. I do think this is a fair system.

As a operator/manager/guide, dealing with guests whose skills are less than perfect is a tough juggling act. We understand that in a mixed group in situations like that above, the more skilled and environmentally-aware divers are going to be upset. However, everybody has paid the same money to be on the dive and presuming they are all certified divers on a fun dive, then no-one has asked to be taught how to dive.

From our point of view, as much as we might want to take the cameras out of these guys hands and tell them they have to learn how to dive properly before we give it back, we just can't. All we can do is as politely as possible remind them of the delicacy of the underwater life that they're whacking with their fins and ask them to remember that other guests would like the chance to take some pictures too next time.

Unfortunately, to many people even this gentle, polite nudge can and is often taken as some kind of affront to their prowess/manhood/whatever. It is sadly common that the kind of people who disrespect the ocean are the kind to flare up fast in this situation, often leading to name-calling, demands for refunds and bad-mouthing of the operator: "Don't dive there, they don't let you dive how you want..." etc, etc.

Understandably, most operators don't want to start any incident that could ultimately affect business but definitely DO want to say something, and will. It just is often caged in such very softly-softly language to avoid confrontation that the message often gets lost or ignored.

In many ways, as a participant in the group who wasn't able to get a shot because of their behaviour, you actually have a more 'legitimate' and 'acceptable' right, in their minds, to say something to them that they might hear better coming from 'a peer'. You can tell them that as a similar fee paying customer, you have as much right to see the pygmy seahorse as they do and next time would they mind letting you in? Whereas often in their opinion, the operator is only there to service their needs and how dare we criticize their ability in the water...?

Jams

jams post does point out part of the issue I have wrestled with. I understand that the guides, dive ops are in a tough spot. They need business and need to protect the reef. It is difficult for them to "comment" on a particular diver’s technique. I have only seen one case where a guide actually intervened with one diver who was really over the top in reef decimation.

I have my rules: 1. Only one finger on the reef. 2 No moving or herding creatures to get a shot. But clearly others have different perspectives. I have come to terms with being "the jerk" and will try to politely as possible bring up an issue with a fellow diver, be it buoyancy control, touching/moving creatures, etc. To date people have taken it well. I just try to smile a lot and stay friendly with them after we have talked.

I suspect that in the UK, trying to suggest that photographers had any claim over an underwater scene would have distinctly adverse repercussions. Its not an area of discussion that I would personally air except under specific circumstances (Seasearch diving or on MCS dives, etc.). There are all sorts of reasons why photographers might suggest that they have precedence, but in reality we don't! Unless we set up or organise a trip or operate with photographers only, I can't see why we should have any more say in a scene than anyone else.

This is a worthy subject given the changing dynamics of underwater photography with the advent of the digital revolution.

"It's mine until I give it up" still rules for me, but I often give it up early and then wait for a second chance after others have had their turn. We photographers should use a little discretion and not dominate a subject. It's called consideration. People either have it or they don't.

The other issues raised exist regardless of the standard etiquette. In Lembeh, a German couple would video a stationary subject for 10 minutes, then do a complete dust over as they left. We would literally cover the subject when the left, so it wouldn' t be covered in black sand. I recall taking a couple shots of a pygmy, then letting another guy jump in. He then spent 15 straight minutes at 90ft. shooting the pygmys with his MX10. The guy would also jump in front of me whenever he felt like it, regardless of how many shots I had taken. That's why I hesitate giving a subject up.

I too was on a boat with Italians while in Palau. Their leader, a 200kg guy wearing a speedo, a CMAS 53 star instructor, would stand on coral, rip a sponge up and plant it on his head, stick his arm inside a giant clam. What a role model.

I'm in the "if the dive guide finds it share" group. I've been embarrased a couple of times when I was not aware that someone was waiting for me to finish - I always tell other photographers to tap me on the shoulder when they want to cut in. On the other hand, if I find the subject and want to keep it to myself for a little longer than normal, I don't feel guilty. I will also go out of my way to look around for someone else to show the critter after I'm through. Good will has a tendency to come back to you.

RogerC, my mentor, says, "take a picture of a rock!" Make all of your exposure adjustments on a rock/sponge before trying to photograph the pygmy seahorse. Don't stress the subjects more than you have to.

HI,

for me I don't think we have the right to hog the wonderful underwater

wildlife as photographers I have never rushed to get the first shot or second

but I have been pushed out of the way, so others can get the first shots.

I look at it from the point of view that im lucky enough just to see the underwater

world, so if I can not get a picture, I will wait till next time, but it doesn't matter if

not ,there is more to life than a picture. Always spare a thought for the subject does

it want all the attention. We must make sure these wonderful creatures live for the

next generation & the generation after that. This is just my point of veiw.

Andy

This whole business about pointing out interesting finds has been more of a frustration than a benefit to me. This may be different on a dedicated photoshoot with a local expert and many exciting and hard to find critters but you really need to share the same interest for this to work. In my experience many of the things pointed out by fellow divers or dive masters are not that interesting to me; yet another moray, stingray, or lobster. The fact that there is often a milling around of people with careless fins kicking left right and center also doesn't help. If you do swim over and then decide its not worth taking a picture they get upset or pull on your fin because they think you didn't see it. So it is best to just take a shot give the ok symbol and move on. However, on most occassions I don't even go over because it breaks my concentration. I do mis a few interesting finds that way but on the whole I need to get into the groove to take pictures and enjoy doing so. It also helps to tell the DM what you are looking for and what lens you are using so (s)he knows what your focusing on.

When I find something that interests me, I typically take my time to take pictures. If it is something I know others will be interested in I will try to attract their attention, but if I'm too far away from the group it just isn't worth it. I also learned quickly that many things that get me really exited don't create the same response in others and for fish that are too small it is often difficult to even make clear what you are pointing at. In short. unless you know that the DM or your buddy have similar interests, I've found that in most occassions it works best to stay some distance away from the main group or dive entirely solo.

Bart

The bigger the group the more I try to let go of the idea high powered photography isnt going to be the go and focus on sightseeing as the main aim of the dive. I often cant stop anyone else doing 50 shots each of a seahorse, but I can make sure Im not adding to it. Another thing I try to do is to focus on taking pictures of people and scenery rather than smaller stuff.

I was lucky on my last overseas trip in that the DM's knew me and were happy to let me puddle about at 10m next to the boat by myself while they took off with the main group to sightsee. I try for that if at all possible, Id often rather be doing uninterrupted shooting than making sure I see every great thing.

Otara

I just got back from the Crystal River and snorkelling with the manatees. My only disappointment from the trip wasn't the awful vis at Kings but moreover came from a photographer at 3 sisters springs. We went there late in the morning after the first visit. There were only two manatees inside the spring and neither were interested in interaction. I went to one side of the spring and there was a photographer standing on the bottom, 5 ft from a small manatee so I perched about 10ft off her left shoulder to also take a few pics. She stayed for about another 15 minutes or so taking photos and then swam between me and the manatee silting up the joint on her way out. I stayed for a few more minutes taking photos with only people swimming by to take a look as well. I then swam over to the other side of the spring and noticed a larger manatee being photographed by someone else. I waited for the person to leave and then took up a spot about 10ft away to try and catch that great shot of a manatee going for air. The first unkown photographer then reappeared, this time swimming behind me and around directly in front of the manatee and proceeded to park at about 4ft away snapping pictures at a record pace. As the manatee surfaced I let out my breath, briefly sank and framed a great shot when suddenly a DSLR was shoved into my frame. Guess who! I finally had to ask her to back up so that I could manage a shot. She took a step back. Well...eventually she left and found a way to harass the other little guy who was now in full flight. I'm not sure what to make of this type of behavior except that its a lot like driving these days. People are just not courteous anymore.

BTW...I read Frink's Article and I didn't come away with the sense he was saying its a photographers until-they-release-it attitude but moreover one of being aware of those around you.

I just got back from the Crystal River and snorkelling with the manatees. My only disappointment from the trip wasn't the awful vis at Kings but moreover came from a photographer at 3 sisters springs. We went there late in the morning after the first visit.............

Gary,

I'm glad you got some good viz at 3 sister's!!

Regarding King's Spring. Ahhhh if you had seen it even 3 years ago you wouldn't have complained at all!!! In fact if you ever get a chance to look on page 63 of 'Successful Underwater Photography", by Brian Skerry and Howard Hall, the manatee there I'm almost positive was photographed by Brian at King Spring. But probably 10-15 years ago. King Spring used to be the premier place for manatee as it was even more "consistent" and "dramatic" with the large tarpon, hordes of crevalle jacks, diving cormorants, etc., than the more volatile 3 Sister's Spring.

Briefly what happened there isn't completely man's fault but isn't completely nature's fault either. It is a complex combination. In 1993 a "no-name" storm hit the West Coast of Florida here in March. I remember it, most of my friends who live on Clearwater Beach woke up with 3 feet of water inside their houses, most of the cars ruined. The forecasters were really off on that storm. In Crystal River you could drive a pontoon boat on US 19 (where you probably stayed or ate lunch!).

What happened is it introduced so much salt water into the Crystal and Homosassa Rivers, much worse than any hurricane in recent memory, that it started a complicated process of killing most of the fresh water aquatic plants that used to keep the river water "crystal" clear. Then a Lyngbia sp algae (invasive), has taken over and has choked many remaining freshwater aquatic plants. But note the Crystal River used to be so clear that it has taken years for it to reach the point it is at now in 2007. South Florida Water Management District has been trying, since the mid 90s, to help clean up the Lyngbia sp invasive algae and bring back the other aquatic plants, but we may have lost the battle.

It is just heartbreaking for us to love the river, manatee, cormorant, fish, dolphin, etc etc etc, who make their home there. We can only hope King Spring may someday return to a more clear state, but it may never happen.

The manatee are fine, but even they have a harder time now finding enough vegetation to eat and have to go further from the springs to find food.

But we still have 3 sister's although that is not as clear as it used to be either and it is very volatile (good, clear days with manatee are rare). Also it can't support as many snorkelers (and photographers), so limits will be placed later this year on the numbers of people allowed in the water at Crystal and Homosassa Rivers by Fish and Wildlife. This is a good thing, for people and the manatee.

I was at 3 sister's last Thursday with several photographers and I'm happy to report that it was 95% polite and positive. Photographers there that day were very polite (I think most realize the situation with the river and appreciate that the good days there are so rare now they have to work together). Very positive day. And most important the manatee were not disturbed!

But I do acknowledge that "impolite" photographers and people can come and ruin things for everyone, but that is a fact of life that cannot be avoided anywhere you go - as you say it happens even more frequently on our highways!

I think we can only change things by trying to set as good an example ourselves as we can (granted we all make mistakes). And if something non-optimum happens try to correct it but if it is impossible just try, try again as they say. Persistence really pays off in photography and in all areas of life.

Good news is the manatee at Crystal River and Homosassa Rivers are doing pretty well. There are threats of course but people wanting to see them is the least of their threats for sure!

I'm sorry you encountered a rude photographer, but all are not like that. In fact I find that is the exception. Of course the best people make an extra effort and go early and on "uncrowded" days (as you did Gary), I've had plenty of days where I was the only person back in the springs.

I wish you had gone to 3 sister's first, but I think there might have been a problem with the low-tide water level (7amish I think) that day and that is why they decided to do 3 sister's last. Still you go to see manatee in clear water which is a rare thing these days!!!

Thanks for alerting us about the rude photographer but I hope it didn't ruin your experience. Trust me "we" aren't all like that, I've even seen other photographers there help others get a shot!!! B)

All I've got to say for this thread is we all need to strive to be better in the water as I don't think anyone has an absolutely mistake-free record. Possibly by setting a good example ourselves and trying to effectively correct those that negatively effect the environment we can affect a change towards the better - and make our hearts smile when we get home and see the beautiful world we have photographed!

Best, Carol

Carol,

It would've taken more than this photographer to ruin my day. King Spring was full of manatee. Despite the viz, we had a majestic day. My wife and I even went further away from the boat in clearer water, waited very still and viola! we had Manatees coming to play. Very cool. 3 sisters was quite the experience. The visibility was incredible. Little crabs, fish, and very few people made it nice. In any case, I got a few photos as well. Although I think I could use a lesson or two!

If you have a moment to entertain a question, I'll pose it in the other thread I started about the Crystal River.

Thanks,

Gary

In a recent Scuba Diving article, Stephen F. suggested that an underwater scene belonged to the photographer until he was done shooting. While that sounds nice, I am sure that there must be some limits.

I think that this statement is generally true. If a photographer has made an opportunity for a shot then that should belong to them for as long as it takes for them to make that shot.

A lot is being said about photographers "hogging" their subject, but the converse is also a problem, photographers or, more appropriately, divers with cameras often crowd out a photographer while waiting in line. This year in Sipidan I had dozens of potential & taken shots ruined by people hovering around and stirring up sediment.

Given the relatively unlimited capacity now of digital cameras, where do you draw the line on how long to shoot a subject, particularly with a group that has 4 or 5 people trying to get something nice.

I'd have to say that there is no line I have been known to do more than one dive on a particular subject to get a shot. Maybe if you are a twitcher-type photographer, who just wants a shot of an animal, you shoot and move on. Captuirng a behaviour or even particular pose can take a loooooong time! Often longer if the animal is feeling crowded ...

Just to vent ... videographers who sit off your shoulder with their lights on your subject... this is not politely waiting your turn !! nor is it really possible to sneak in the other side of the subject to get a few minutes of footage :glare: :glare: :glare:

If I find an interesting subject on my own I consider it mine until I'm finished with it. If the subject was pointed out to me by the dive guide or another diver I will take a few shots and then give it up for someone else.

I'd work like this. If you make a specific request of a guide, however, I think you still should be able to take enough time to get a good shot. In my experience other people in the group won't be so polite and give the subject back ... a tad annoying when they didn't even know about the critter and you went out of you way to get the chance to photograph it.

If a guide points out a subject I like to let other divers and divers with cameras go first, knowing that then they won't hang around while I shoot. This does cost some subjects, when they get harassed or silted out, but it means on average I'm more successful

BTW...I read Frink's Article and I didn't come away with the sense he was saying its a photographers until-they-release-it attitude but moreover one of being aware of those around you.

I didnt read the article but id be really surprised if Stephen Frink meant it as a mine-until-i-release, simply because it's never going to work. You'll drive yourself insane if thats how you feel. If you want a scene all by yourself, go somewhere by yourself. Ive done that on many trips, just ask the guides to drop you someplace with a buddy or by yourself if you so choose.

I gave up being angry for more than 3 seconds a long time ago, other divers have all the rights to be there also, and shouldnt have to worry about me because I have a huge fisheye lens.

Things are slightly different if you're on a dedicated photo trip. In that case you can just make rules about it, as everyone has the same goal.

Cor

<_<

I don't agree with the "it is mine till I'm done" mentality. If you want the scene to yourself, hire a guide and go by yourself. If you're with a group, take a few shots, go to the back of the line, review your shots while you wait, take better shots when it's your turn again. A "professional" has no more right than the newbie with the new point and shoot. When I was new and knew someone was on assignment, I would give them first grabs, but I expected access too. To say that it is OK to hog, doesn't take into account the fact that while diving, you have a limited time to take your shots. It is not fair to expect people to use all their air waiting on you.

Having just returned from Lembeh, I was delighted in photographing critters that didn't run. You had plenty of time to shoot 'cause they weren't going anywhere fast. Our group was so curteous that everyone got great access.

Before going to Lembeh, we were in Raja Ampat where we had a European photographer with us who was rude to the max. Noone got pictures of anything he took a fancy to. He was originally with our group, but we started to encourage him to dive with another group. A liveaboard is too small to have people pissed with you.

I think the golden rule works here. No matter who you THINK you are.

If a guide points out a subject I like to let other divers and divers with cameras go first, knowing that then they won't hang around while I shoot. This does cost some subjects

That is what I do also, usually makes life easier and I am staying out of the other's way - especially on the first couple of dives with people on the boat I have not met before - I pay extra attention to try not to interfere.

And it usually works out well when they see I did not hog things or get in the way the first dive, by the second day they are often are waving me to come over to see things they have found and get a shot of it, so I get some extra spotters

Missed a couple of shots along the way, but pretty much have forgotten what they were at this point. The only missed shots I remember are on the infrequent dive when I do not carry a camera in some form and see THE SHOT of all time. Those I remember a bit longer