"Sorry son"

Ever felt really demeaned with the age old response to your shooting format?

"Ahhh, sorry but we're shooting only fully uncompressed HD for this one. Sorry, your footage is great but only HD 4:4:4 on this one".

Same thing raises its head with regards to HDV programme content these days but if you look at most of the 'reality' based animal, travel or adventure shows on Discovery, Animal Planet or NG these days what do we see? Someone with a Z1 or FX1 running around making their mark. Don't get me wrong, I think this is fantastic news for those who adopt these cameras as their shooting medium. Go for it, let it rip.

Ok so what I'm getting at. We've got a massive production going on, in part, here in Palau at the moment. The other stuff has been shot around Yap and Truk (Chuuk) Lagoon. Deep Ocean stuff. The shooters are the guys we all aspire to. I would say four of the top five shooters in the World are here at the mo.

They have flown helicopters searching for Dugongs

They plan an 800fsw dive with the NewtSuit

They chartered a massive boat for three weeks

Have a crew of around 30

Support divers using Z1's in Gates Housings with SWP44's (hmmm, I know that rig)

Deep divers using CCR & F900's in Amphibicams and home made housings

Illuminated using Pacific Visions 200w portable HMI's at $7k each

etc etc etc

So whats the point to this? Well the A Roll crew are shooting 1080p / 24P whilst the B-roll crew using the Z1's and Gates have got the cameras set to record IN THE DV / FORMAT !!! This is not an attack on anyone least of all the producers of the show who cited that they didn't have the HDV decks to load the footage into the computers with and they didn't want to use the cameras and risk ruining the heads. They do have some old DV clam shell decks so will use those to load in the B roll stuff.

I'd hate to imagine how much this whole project has cost. I'm sure it will "blow our little cotton socks off" but for the whole project to rest on the reluctance of those who control the purse strings to spend out on a HDV deck really is almost unbelievable. Why do a lot of us attain to keep ahead of the format wars when this kind of thinking is basically the deciding factor as to who works and who doesn't?

I for one will definitely be using this scenario as an example should I ever hear the "sorry son ........... blahdy bollox" speech again.

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark, I really get where your coming from.

I experienced this in the early days of shooting Betacam SP. Being told that it didn't meet the required " standard " really got me wound up. ( it bothered the bank manager more ).

Still, it does sound a little like waving a "RED" rag at a bull.

It seems this is the next episode of the BBC Planet Earth...

I am really curios whether the RED will be a standard after the FW900 in the uw videography for the big guys or not...

Well Mark the truth is that HDV isn't a format the BBC finds adequate for their usual manipulation. On Planet Earth, various scenes were upressed Beta, DV and even HDV. It's quite obvious which is which in the scenes. DVCAM is resilient and much more dropout free than HDV. It also takes uprezzing very well.

And really, there isn't a HDV VTR like the old GV1000, which was small and portable. The JVC wasn't compatible with Sony HDV. THe M15 is huge compared to the GV1000.

As for working with any company in any field, it's comes down to who you know really, as you well know.

An amazing coincidence...

I have just had the same convo with a industry person over my latest escapade. Apparently I may have the skills and ability but not the hardware to cut it at the moment. HDV is to (coin a phrase) a Gimmick.. and is so compressed that Standard DV or DVCAM is better to deal with. Also it has no shelf-life compared to that of say..super 16mm..Most shoots now have hired HDCAM / XDCAM's because of the short shelf life, No use buying a £30 - £50K cam if its upgraded in a year...But at around £800 per day to hire, thats a little beyond my budget...

O.k I hear you.."But what about as said 'Planet Earth' and other big productions..All using the Z1 at some point"... Maybe they tested the new format and didn't like the results..But I've seen plenty of footage that I consider 'fantastic' from shooters on this and other forums. Thats my opinion, visually, But I'm no techno head and have never claimed to be. So I have to believe my peers who do have 'The knowledge' about compression blah de blah.. But can my eyes be lying to me. As said, if you have to keep messing around with the raw footage then its going to down-grade at some point. Bring on the HDD storage.

Marky, I tried to get myself on above said 'jolly' but to avail, the team where chosen months before. But one day I will get the call...One day I'll sit by my phone and wait..It will be just behind the call from Angelina Jolie <_<

Bring on the XDCAM EX..true HD.. But Probably by then it will be surpassed by 'HD turbo' Just my luck.

Maybe we just jumped into HDV too quick

Dive safe

DeanB

Hi all,

I've recently had a chat with two people loosely connected with the logistics and behind the scenes issues with regards to this project. It basically boils down to:

"HDV being a crappy, massively compressed format that doesn't stand up to the rigors of professional post production applications".

In it's true context HDV is not suitable for inclusion in the majority of professional broadcast programming. Take that as you will. I see it as meaning that the format will not be accepted into projects which pride themselves on their production work flow. A lot of serious shooters use tried and tested (read frikkin' expensive) high end cams to get their work done. That is then translated (downrezzed or uprezzed) into whatever the final requirements are for the project. If that means shooting with a $120,000 CineAlta and then downrezzing that to DVCam or even DV then that is what has been decided on by those in power! Sad but true.

I guess a lot of us here, me included, made the jump to HDV because of those first two letters, HD. Damn those letters, they cost a fortune. Warning bells were ringing at the time we were buying with regards to the broadcast World snubbing the format. Did we heed that warning? Most of us not, but hey, we turn on Animal Planet, Discovery and NG these days and there is always some one running around waving an FX1 or Z in the air as they document the 'reality' of modern day life.

So there has to be a market right? Sure there is, but it just may not be the ticket to fame and glory everyone was thinking when they heard those two letters HD. For me now with my new found acceptance of the format and it's capabilities, I'll be planning to use it solely to add imagery to my stock and eventually to my demo reel. A demo reel basically being a tool to show people what you can do with a camera, your patience and understanding of a situation and not to showcase that you too use Enya to compliment your masterpiece!!

pmooney - show me the raging bull and I'll wave my little flag at it! At least with the new camera I have been seeing and reading all of the info regarding what the camera will and will not do (which on the negative side is not that much). Maybe on the verge of buying a camera that may allow me at least ten years to work with it before having to buy the next latest and greatest. Will it take over from the F900's F950's as the mainstay for underwater applications ? God, I hope so

Cheers,

Mark.

Mark,

I think you have summed it up very well, not many of us have the funds or in a position to run 'planet earth' and maybe HDV isn't an ideal format, however for what most of us do which is promotional stuff / selling footage / making and selling DVD's / having great fun... HDV works. Look what people are already doing and lets face it all the camera's which are coming onto the market are all HDV...

As you said if you concentrate on producing a great portfolio where your shooting is excellent that will win hands down. Who cares what the BBC want to burn money on, there will always be someone with more money and a better camera.

Jon

Yep who cares about them, I made my money back on the HDV gear in just 1 year from the footage sold and would not off sold it if it was DV 4.3.

If you have something they want, they will take it in HDV.

Have a look here, underwater all shot by ME on HDV and it was beemed up on a huge curved screen during the rolex presentations. They say it looked realy cool and will be on National Geo soon.

But it would be nice to have the $$$ gear.

S'all great stuff here guys,

I think we all have a good understanding of what each and every one of us is trying to achieve here. I didn't want anyone to think I was attacking anyone or the ethics of those who make the final format decisions irrespective of how 'out there' they may seem at times. I just think a lot more people now have a better understanding of what the HDV format is all about, where its going, what its best uses are and how to expect 'professional' reaction to the news that you shoot on it.

All kidding aside, for the holiday shooter, the serious amateur its the fantastic format for making great quality DVD's. Hey I know a guy who shoots long sequences of beaches, saturates the bejeezus out of the footage, slows it down and makes a killing by selling relaxation montages. In excess of $100k a year! So yes there is a market. Just don't expect that to be anything that gives you a credit next the icons of this filming genre.

We are all very well aware of the massive talent many of the shooters represented here posses. There will always be a bond connecting those who shoot whether topside, underwater or any other wet environment hahaha, yes Dean I know you're about to pick up on that one!! So for me I'm learning to enjoy this whole ride a lot more and continually learning to not take this whole thing so seriously. Its a great thing to have a community of kindred spirits where ideas and thoughts can be bounced around. When all is said and done if you can pay the bills and save a bit then thats what its all about no?

And if you do get that shot of the manta birth, the whale shark orgy, the sperm whale eating the giant squid or the white shark hunting seals underwater then all I can say is well done........oh, and don't forget to transfer it to DV, just in case!!

Cheers,

Mark.

All hail the CHEAPTASTIC A1 and my cautious leap into HDV...

No I'm not gloating in any way.

As I said, which was pointed out by Mark..Its not the Cam its the Man/womans talent/ passion which sets them apart.

The BBC / any other company, wants to use the best to get the best and if 'our' best ain't good enough then oh well where's my credit card. For tourist shooters / consumers its now come to light that HDV is a great (dare I say it) gimmick cam for the wow factor and we fell for it. But obviously not for the constant useage, production etc... by broadcasters. Even HD gets a thumbs down in some respects. But as I and others have said buy what you can afford, you don't have to keep up with the joneses for holiday shooting.

This industry is like owning an elephant, bloody expensive and one day it will crap on your head. But if you have the determination and talent then you'll succeed (whos seed the lucky git )

Oh my god I'm turning into my my Dad.....

I don't know what your on about Marky but that industry pays more and it would be more fun..And it would bring a new meaning to going in with my 'big red'...

Dive safe

Dean(pearls of wisdom)B

I am a rank amateur, newbie, but I fell in love with HDV cameras about a year and a half ago and underwater videography a year ago. I have spent about two hours a day during this period learning how to use my cameras, post process, and edit. I'm an environmental scientist and will be able to retire in a year or two and hope to become at least a semi-pro nature videographer, at whatever level that is possible.

I find the Discovery company's standard lines about HDV a bit annoying, if not somewhat disingenuous. Of course they use HDV. Even their submission guidelines for flagship HD channels allow 10 to 15% HDV per show. Yes it is compressed and sometimes compression artifacts can "ruin" a shot, but they use it and many other production outfits use it. Most viewers can't tell the difference, and in many cases the editors may not be able to see significant differences.

I was intrigued by Studio Daily's recent spot on the "Future of HDV" (at: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/video/7871.html). They interviewed several prominent mainstream videographers including a cameraman who used a Z1 for footage in the "24" series and someone who uses a Canon XL H1 for underwater footage. I have to say, these folks seemed to know less about HDV than the pros here and even less than I know about it.

They said that latitude in post-production was limited so you had to get things right during filming. That's always a good idea. Only one of them seemed to know anything about Cineform intermediate files that give you back some of that latitude. They seemed to have a limited knowledge about the latest HDV cameras, and they had some already-outdated notions about the possibilities for good 24p or 30p with recent cameras or even good post-processing of 60i.

Perhaps they represent the benchmarks for mainstream productions, but they seem to know less about HDV's potentials than you folks. Mark, I was really impressed with your web pages and your wealth of experience in diving and underwater videography. As an independent business person you have the time and focus to do things they will not be able to do. I have already decided that I will never be able to capture super high resolution super slow motion footage of a great white leaping into the air with a seal in its jaws. It's just not going to happen. So what.

You have your sights set on RED, and there other exciting technologies coming down the pike (the RED pocket pro cam?, the Sony EX?). There are all kinds of markets, as folks have already pointed out, and there is no shame in making a living while you pursue your passion. You can outlast those who close some doors, in part because they might not understand as much about your product as you do.

Cheers!

Pat

So basically the gist of what I'm getting is that I invested 14 grand in a rig that is considered unacceptable for television. By whose standards? The absolute top eschelon of programming? Maybe. There's probably only a select few shooters who will ever be asked to do those gigs anyway.

In the meantime, I just delivered DV content from my Z1 for another 3 epsiodes of scuba-related television, bringing my total to 8 involved episodes and almost 4 hours of air time in the last 9 months. I say this not to brag - I say this to encourage, because reading threads like this makes me want to pack it in sometimes, as I'm sure many of you do as well.

I think another major factor here we're forgetting is that web content is exploding. I'm making decent money delivering internet content to several major dive industry companies and I'm happy as a clam doing it. It reminds me that in the age of immediate download and having programming right at your fingertips (laptop, iPod, etc.), there's still plenty of work out there for all of us who can't drop a quarter of a million dollars on an HD rig.

Fight the good fight, guys! We're good at what we do and there are many places for our content.

Once again we are on defcon3 and shouting out loud our dismay because our hopes and dreams of making it big time didn't come about because we sold our souls and cashed in our pensions on another camera thats better than yours... its never going to happen. Well not to all of us, a chosen few will be lucky enough to get 'somewhere' if anywhere. It all depends on what you aim to achieve and who with.

Just because so and so said he's got this camera because its the best, well not exactly the best because he cannot afford that, but the best he can afford does not mean we all jump on the bandwagon in the hope that our ££££/$$$$ worth of latest speck gear will make us fantastic cameramen/women and producers will jump hoops to pay us big bucks to swim with angels...Gasp !!!!!

Its not the camera.....Its the idea's, the passion, the filmmakers eye, the talent..The just happen to be there at the right time good luck and the mainly because my mates the producer/ director/tea-boy.

I empathise with everyone I really do...But its not down to your camera..well 90% of the time anyhow. Unless you really take the plunge aka Mr Thorpe and get ahead of the crowd instead of joining it.

Just be happy with what little you've got, some girl is going to like it some day...Sorry wrong forum

If you want to join the BBC/NAT GEO/ major players find an interesting never told before story then sell your house buy or rent a HDCAM / RED and make films. Or shoot a meteor being smashed back into space by a bat wielding whale or sleep with the head of TV..

Don't pin your hopes on your less than £5,000 ($10,000) camera...

Dive safe

Dean(yeehaa he's finally finished)B

So basically the gist of what I'm getting is that I invested 14 grand in a rig that is considered unacceptable for television. By whose standards? The absolute top eschelon of programming? Maybe. There's probably only a select few shooters who will ever be asked to do those gigs anyway.

I'm in for around $24k at the moment with the Gates Z1 and all whistles, bells, lenses and accessories. Yes, it hurts eh? For my aspirations, and I'm not suggesting that your submissions to the broadcast World are anything but top notch, I have my eyes set on the top line, theatrical, big screen. That for me is the ultimate. That is what I aspire to. Getting there will take a while, a lot of pain, a lot of cash and a lot of thoughts of 'ditching the whole thing'. I think I'm not alone when I say that I've often thought of that. C'mon guys stand up and be counted. Who's also thought of jacking it all in and getting a 'real' job?

In the meantime, I just delivered DV content from my Z1 for another 3 epsiodes of scuba-related television, bringing my total to 8 involved episodes and almost 4 hours of air time in the last 9 months. I say this not to brag - I say this to encourage, because reading threads like this makes me want to pack it in sometimes, as I'm sure many of you do as well.

Thats great, well done. See it shows that some producers do appreciate and do use HDV. I'm not saying its a bad format for certain applications. I am saying for the top flight, and why not aspire to that level, productions it is simply frowned on and unacceptable to most production entities.

I think another major factor here we're forgetting is that web content is exploding. I'm making decent money delivering internet content to several major dive industry companies and I'm happy as a clam doing it. It reminds me that in the age of immediate download and having programming right at your fingertips (laptop, iPod, etc.), there's still plenty of work out there for all of us who can't drop a quarter of a million dollars on an HD rig.

Absolutely, there are many delivery platforms available these days. Its all about cutting your little niche and capitalizing on it. Unfortunately for me I have come to finally realize that whilst it may be a big, bitter and not to mention massively expensive pill to swallow but to advance to the top rungs you need to have the top equipment. We were all thinking that we may have found the secret way in to cut a few corners when HDV came along but sadly thats just not the case. I for one wish it was but now realize, hey it is what it is. Next problem.

Fight the good fight, guys! We're good at what we do and there are many places for our content.

Right on. Great feedback my man. See what I mean about this community being a great place to kick back and discuss the whole gammut of our craft.

Cheers,

Mark.

With such passion running through our veins and all this belief in our expensive (to us) gear..Why don't we take the fight to the masses.

WETPIXEL TV an online channel with worldwide destination reviews, interviews with major players and up and coming stars, showreels, award winning film features..LIVE on location updates to our ever changing world and show piece enviromental films...

Is it worth a try.. You never know we could be the next National Geographic / BBC NHU. Then we'd have the best camera's and hire £££$$$ boats etc...

We have the talent pooling round these forums all the time

Come on guys lets make history.AAAAARRRRRGGGHHHHH thats my fighting shout

Dive safe

Dean(it started as a ripple)B

you might be onto something there Deanie..

Excellent idea Dean. I'm sure with all the talent here that Wetpixel TV could really be a big hit. I would love to have some of my footage aired, but if you don't know someone on the "inside", how can you even get a broadcaster to look at your stuff. I do have footage that could have looked good on Planet Earth, as do many others on here, it's just that we don't know how to get it on these programs. So much of the underwater stuff I see on TV which was shot by the "pro's" is not even close to much of our footage. I'm very critical while watching these programs, and often shake my head and wonder "how did they get that crap on TV?" Planet Earth was an exception, as anyone who's seen it knows, it was all absolutely amazing footage, but I too have some amazing footage. Lets get Wetpixel TV rolling!

Dan

Mark, this has been an excellent thread, and I will offer more comments later. Off to go diving now.

Dan

Great idea but I think we would have to make the clips with fun story's and not just stuff to music.

Have them like video diaries would be cool, maybe not technically correct but fun to watch.

On the money!!!!! Everyone is caught up on reality tv shit when they have no conception of what reality really is let alone underwater! What is needed is a totally different approach, look at other industries which generate gzillions more dollars, pounds and buttons (whatever your currency is)...The surfing industry, snowboarding / skiing..... Diving needs a new approach it needs to be re-invented... that sounds very 'cliche' but it has been stagnant for the past few years.

The diving industry has been so caught up in setting 'safe' standards it had killed the excitement, I'm not saying that safety diving is bad, but lets be honest it aint hard and the rewards are great!!!!

Sorry had a couple of beers and this has touched a nerve!!!!!

J