Underwater attack

It is appalling to even hear such a story coming from another diver...even if it is true/untrue..

I have yet to meet Mr.Howeikwok in person and I am not vouching for anything...but he does take some good pictures UW.. and he is on my multiply list for quite some time now...

I have experience my fair share of divers poking/harrassing marine life, seeing the nudibranch i was just about to take 'flying' off the sand after another diver decides to put his fins to better use, elbowing their way in to get a shot....but pulling the reg out of their mouth always solves this..

Now...mr. Rod Klein...where art thou???

ECHENG..Care to share with us the newbie on your history with him??..

Trying to be the voice of reason here. To jump to judgement based on the portrayal of one side of the story is a little unfair. Especially since Rod may be on a boat somewhere etc and have no access to the net. Right now we have the story from a 3rd party person who didn't see the incident but recounting the complaint from Esther and showing pictures of her bruise from the incident. I don't think it's unfair to reserve judgement until we get a response from Rod, KBR and Sol.

Carol, english is the native language in singapore, one of 4 national languages. I'm sure attack was chosen for that effect as is the picture.

If it was me, i take a picture of the harassing " photo-pro " in action and made it public .

That is definitely welcomed here, especially video . A still can be taken out of context. Video is more damning evidence

The other issue of subject harassment is something saved for another day. With seminars by photographers showing how they moved/prodded subjects to achieve a certain shot at dive shows, it's obviously not universally condemned. Although I am very against that of course.

There are always 2 sides to a story. We don't know what transpired between Esther and 'Rod.'

It makes me uncomfortable to see the "piling on" going on here too. There is enough of this in the mainstream media. This website is capable of wrecking someone’s reputation; I'm suggesting it might be prudent to get all the facts before condemning someone. I'm with Drew on this one. I don't know any of the folks involved and was not there but I can envision an entirely different scenario.

So let's pretend I'm a pro trying to get an image and after waiting 10-15 min on a fish, another group of divers comes finning up and starts stirring up the bottom. There are some broken pieces of staghorn next to the fish, might as well move them out of the shot, It's all stirred up anyway. These people are close enough to touch. I'm probably thinking, "Give me some room folks, it's a big ocean". I set my rig down to wait for the crap they stirred up to settle and one of them decides to swim off with my gear! What the heck is going on here? This other diver is now hovering above me so close I can reach up and touch her. I've spent the whole dive trying to get this image, maybe they'll move on. She is dangerously close to the staghorn, so I reach up keep her leg off the coral and she didn't expect it and jerks her leg right into the coral. Ouch, that will leave a bruise. Who are these people and why are they so close to me?

There is no excuse for jabbing someone, if that is what happened. As Carol points out, communication is very limited underwater especially between divers who don't know each other.

Steve

Well then i guess it's time to ask my friend Esther to register an account and give her side of the story here. And then wait for Mr Klein to see this thread and respond.

Just a little more to add. Though underwater communication may be limited. I guess common practice to attract somebody's attention underwater is to use a tank banger or underwater horn. Or in this case using the pointer to bang on the tank. How ever does poking someone with a pointer ever become justifiable is beyond me. I've seen fellow divers using their pointer to hit other divers on the wrist and i thought even that was wrong. Surely there are better ways to get your point across underwater? Especially to a stranger you do not know?

As noted, I'd be happy to hear Rod's version of the events directly from him. Knowing Alvin though, I'm having trouble reconciling his version to one like Steve suggested as a possibility. On the other hand, I certainly understand why people who don't know either party, or maybe only know Rod, would not want to form any opinion of him until he either posts a credible / acceptable version or apologizes to Esther. Until he does one of those though, I'm not a fan.

While we are waiting, can I tell me Michael Aw story?

As noted, I'd be happy to hear Rod's version of the events directly from him. Knowing Alvin though, I'm having trouble reconciling his version to one like Steve suggested as a possibility. On the other hand, I certainly understand why people who don't know either party, or maybe only know Rod, would not want to form any opinion of him until he either posts a credible / acceptable version or apologizes to Esther. Until he does one of those though, I'm not a fan.

 

While we are waiting, can I tell me Michael Aw story?

Oooo... Any hints on what Rod said to you?

Do tell your story, I love stories...

Waiting for Eric's story too...

Rod said to me??????? Nothing. When I was last diving at Lembeh, the Tackett's were still collecting sponges and sharpening their photography skills there. If you mean about Michael, that's a whole other story from Banda Island for another day / thread. I saw that myself.

....and just to show Rod does (did?) have a good side too, I dug up this thread http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?s=&am...ost&p=61634

Hi Zipps,

I'd love to hear about the Michael Aw Story of yours!

GEF.....

Ok

Got replies from Rod and Sol regarding this matter. Rod has chosen to have no comment regarding this issue.

Sol Foo, editor of Asian Diver, while on holiday wrote this:

Firstly, "assault" is too strong a word to use, I feel, as it was not an assault, although my friend did sustain a bruise from the "poke". I confronted Rod about this, and he said he did this because she was swimming above him as he was trying to take a picture of the rhinopias. However, he did apologise through me and I had extended this to Esther. I was not there when it happened, so I am only relating what was told to me from both sides.

I actually invited Esther to KBR so that Rod could apologise to her personally, but she didn't want to meet him.

I think in light of Sol's input, I am going to close this thread with Sol's input and leave the reader to judge for themselves. Readers may start other threads pertaining to the other stories but this one has run its course I think.

Ok

Got replies from Rod and Sol regarding this matter. Rod has chosen to have no comment regarding this issue.

Sol Foo, editor of Asian Diver, while on holiday wrote this:

 

I think in light of Sol's input, I am going to close this thread with Sol's input and leave the reader to judge for themselves. Readers may start other threads pertaining to the other stories but this one has run its course I think.

So Drew - as someone who lives with a lawyer you may appreciate this summary.

Rod did poke Esther - His apology admits that fact and admits that the causing of bruising was inappropriate

That Esther was in arms reach does tend to indicate that she might have been a little close - i make an assumption that Rod did not abandon his fish and fin 10 metres to administer the alleged 'poke'

So I don't condone Rod's actions but at the same time Esther would do well to be aware of her body position and understand that safest and most curteous position for an onlooker is behind the photographer especially if the individual is clearly a serious photographer.

I also think that that the moving of wildlife is completely unacceptable and especially from someone purporting to be a professional and hence a role model.

I also posted http://www.finsonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7055 here a set of of UW photography guidelines and do attempt to cover both photographers and onlookers.

Feel free to copy and paste directly onto here. It is often good to remember these in the heat of the moment and understand with the more cameras available the more important it is for professionals to set appropriate behaviour and guide the less experienced and capable to correct actions.

- Poking people underwater is not acceptable

- Poking/moving marine live underwater is also not acceptable

p.s. thanks for re-opening the post

p.p.s.

by the way - i believe you are correct that assault is the incorrect term - the correct term when physical contact is made is 'battery'

I'm glad the thread wasn't closed.

big blue, that's a pretty good set of guidelines, thanks for putting that online.

Although I'm sure some of the finer points can be debated, its a great start. especially for beginners. for more experienced divers/photographers, who may have their own rules, virtual public "canings" may be needed when community guidelines are severely breached, and they are caught.

Scott

virtual public "canings" may be needed when community guidelines are severely breached, and they are caught.

My retort may belong in the other thread, but it was that specific sentence that inspired my rant!

I have no wish to defend the actions of people who break coral to get a shot etc, nor to defend poking a girl in a pink bikini without getting her consent first, but are you really going to 'enforce' your rules on someone who doesn't give a shit about wetpixel nor a member of your community?

A good, experienced diver would not kill a nudibranch if they pick it up, move it and put it back again post shot, in fact i would go as far as to say no harm will come at all. However the once a year dive vacationer/photographer may unintentionally and unwittingly cause mass destruction on a reef, far more than an experienced and regular diver slowly resting a fin somewhere or picking something up/moving it.

Whilst i am not suggesting this about anyone on here i'm getting a bit sick of this 'holier than thou' attitude that sprouts from people who do 10 dives a year and don't have the self awareness to realise that they are kicking stuff when finning. Again may i reiterate that i'm not saying this about you or anyone else on here, but you do see it a lot.

Making a witch hunt and attempting to force your rules on someone will not do anything other than make people more secretive and panic if they unintentionally do something wrong. Much as when new divers are told never to touch; they freak out if they clip something with a fin, and swim faster to get away from it, causing more damage.

There are always two sides to a story, and making public 'canings' about someone is not the right way to go about it, if we see a photographer moving a subject a bit, we should talk to them at the surface in a calm manner without enforcing our beliefs on them and see what they say. If we don't have the balls to do that then we can't really go posting stuff anonymously online. I'm sure most photographers would not intend to damage the animal and in all likelihood they do not, it may be 'mentally scarred' for a few minutes/seconds.

Has anyone ever had a pet fish? Or been out with a bucket and net at a tide pool? Picked up a frog, worm, caterpillar etc as a child? I for one used to touch all kinds of wildlife near my childhood home, and keep some of it as pets. I can assure you that nothing died due to being touched. A habitually poked fish will not suddenly die overnight, it will move elsewhere where we cant find it.

------

Back onto the subject... so, lets say there wasnt much force applied behind behind the poking stick, and it still hurt/briused. If that same force had been applied behind a couple of fingers or hand there would have been no bruise. It is this reasoning that makes me not like pointers, as some people end up pushing off coral etc with the stick, killing the polyps, when a few fingers or an open palm would have spread the force over a greater area probably avoiding damage to the coral, but you would get screamed at for touching the reef.

I'm not saying that all people who use pointers push off the coral, but just remember that vision isn't perfect in the periphery when looking through a mask, so people may not realise they are doing it.

My retort may belong in the other thread, but it was that specific sentence that inspired my rant!

Simon, you have a lot of good points. when I wrote that, i was thinking about the particular subject of this thread, (poking people). not caning people for relocating nudibranchs. I've been known to give nudibranchs free membership into the NRP (nudibranch relocation program) now and then.

mass destruction caused by unskilled divers finning into reefs is definitely a bigger issue.

But I still think we should strive to refrain from the more extreme forms of harrassment. these are complicated issues with good arguments on multiple sides, all this discussion is definitely a good thing to get us all thinking.

Scott

Obviously, the behavior described here (even if only partially correct) is totally unacceptable for the humans or animals involved. Maybe we do learn everything we need to know in kindergarten.

On a sentimental note, I have been blessed and educated by diving with true gentlemen and artists - the names Church and Newbert come to mind.

The less talented may need to overcompensate.

Simon, you have a lot of good points. when I wrote that, i was thinking about the particular subject of this thread, (poking people). not caning people for relocating nudibranchs. I've been known to give nudibranchs free membership into the NRP (nudibranch relocation program) now and then.

 

mass destruction caused by unskilled divers finning into reefs is definitely a bigger issue.

 

But I still think we should strive to refrain from the more extreme forms of harrassment. these are complicated issues with good arguments on multiple sides, all this discussion is definitely a good thing to get us all thinking.

 

Scott

Ahh, i see, my drunken Christmas day rant picked up on the wrong subject! I have no family to argue with here

I agree with what you're saying, moving a nudi a little is not the same as tying a pipefish to the reef to get a shot (it happens).

My particular rant was inspired when working as a guide i once got berated by a guest on the back deck; literally screaming at me calling me all kinds of names for moving a Chromidoris so someone could get a shot, then moving it back. Obviously as a working crew member i couldn't retort that i had spent much of the week re-attaching and wedging back in coral that they'd kicked off!

However, i have also seen photographers who claim to be from magazines with pretty yellow borders leave a line of destruction through a reef much akin to ploughing a field.

My wife only has a few dives under her belt and she probably wouldn't remember that it is "rude" to be over a shoot, and that the best place is to be behind a photog. If someone "assaults" my wife underwater they are getting a bash from my d200 housing across the head.

Anyone who "places/sets up shots" is no wildlife photog.

This sounds like a case for ol' Siggy Freud. Just reading this thread I summarize it like this:

1. Captain Ron (we'll call the poker this) was playing the patience game and waiting a long time to get a shot of ome skittish animals. This is what good photographers do. Waiting motionless, peeing in his suit, waiting, waiting, waiting.

2. The animals show promise and begin to cooperate to some extent, but not fully. Captain Ron sees light at the end of the tunnel. His shot is becoming more of a reality. 30 minutes of waiting motionless to keep ilt and sand at bay will pay off soon. The price for patience and knowledge on how to shoot skittish animals will give him his reward. Another Lembeh image in his portfolio.

3. Along comes Jane, a diver who is either not a photographer, or too new a photographer to recognize proper photographer etiquette or just needs a bouyancy skill refresher. Jane, however, didn't intentionally ruin Captain Ron's s setup, she just did. Either way, she did something to disturb Captain Ron's setup for which he has spent 30 minute of patiently waiting.

4. Jane's actions triggered Captain Ron's breaking point and he reponded by attempting to push her away, not stab her. Nonetheless, Captain Ron hit a breaking point and committed battery. Jane does not seem to want to take any responsibility for what happened. Her problem is lack of dive skills or photographic etiquette. Captain Ron needs to take an anger manaqgement class if he indeed "poked out of anger". Otherwise if Captain Ron was just trying to use a friendly nudge with his pointer thingie to gain her attention and inform Jane of what she was doing, then he needs to tap their tank and not their thigh

Would Captain Ron have done that to a 230 pound male who is all muscle? If this were the case I suspect we'd have a whole different story here on the mighty WP. That could be a very bad thing.

Basically that's how I see the situation.

Joe

Frankly I am happy to see the variety of threads going regarding this general topic/s.

There are two issue here:

1. The Poke

2. The manipulation of a subject

Issue one, the Poke

"if any or all of the allegations are true" there is no excuse for this and he owes the offended diver an apology.

Issue two Manipulation of subject

How do you stop bad behavior like this?

Here is one way,

I, "state your name" as a big time consumer of any and all dive related magazines, websites and movies will not purchase the above if there is reasonable evidence the contributing photographers/videographers physically moved or manipulated (insert your line is the sand for manipulate) creatures or their habitat to make their images.

I will say due to this thread and others I will not purchase or view anything attributed to Rod Kline. The "alleged manipulation" of the fish is enough. If he publicly states here, other sites or in the publications he is published he will no longer "manipulate" subjects I will then be happy to purchase anything displaying his work.

Once again I think an apology is owed to the "alleged" poked diver.

Yes I know it does not mean he will stop doing this when out of view of others. Yes I know many of my favorite photographers also do it and just have not been called on it. But this is the start of my line in the sand.

Martin (soon to be flamed) Heyn

Seattle, WA

Once again I think an apology is owed to the "alleged" poked diver.

The "Poker" is on Scuba Diving Magazine, September 2006, Page 93.