Editing RAW MXF files

If you are getting an XDCAM EX and was wondering how you can edit the raw MXF files straight from the card instead of having to run them through some other type of program to edit them.

I suggest you try out EDIUS Broadcast. EDIUS comes in 3 versions, Neo, Pro and Broadcast. Today I not only could edit the raw MXF files that I had downloaded but I could render new ones out as well. I could also mix them in with HDV and DV in realtime on a timeline no problems.

So that means one could start editing straight from the card itself instantly.

Rendering out new MXF files is about 1.1 in speed on my QUAD.

Shouldnt this go in the sales area?! Have they given you uniform yet?;p

Ha ha...well there is no harm in sharing what I can achieve on my cheap old custom built PC to you all. It does make a joke of the others NLE though in how it can just edit formats together so easy and now even with MXF files.

Having said that my PC just died last hour. Would not boot, no BIOS screen nothing.

It turned out the RAM needed to be reseated on the motherboard. As usual though it was the last thing I checked after pulling everything out of it to test. I thought I may have over clocked it too much and burnt it out.

No I am not on the payroll but they do want some more underwater footage to run in their booth at NAB this year.

No I am not on the payroll

Isn't getting FREE software and FREE updates like being on the payroll ?

Isn't getting FREE software and FREE updates like being on the payroll ?

No because I don't get it for free so there .

It's called bartering

I have something they want and they have something I want.

Wags

Nobody uses the SxS Express cards as a scratch drive. Everyone I know copies the files to a backup volume off the cards before working with them.

The way Sony Vegas and Apple FCP 6 work, both use Sony's own XDCAM transfer (integrated into each program BUT it can also launch as an independent program) which copies the files off the media card into the hard drive while removing the mp4 wrapper. There's no time penalty incurred from the unwrap while transfer on the fly. Canopus does the same thing no?

As we all know, the XDCAM HD codec is 4:2:0 at 35mbps, not a codec that is good for color grading and efx, adding graphics and titling etc natively. Canopus has the HQ codec and if I remember correctly, it renders pretty much like every other NLE: clip codec to proprietary losseless codec to sequence (output) codec. There's no advantage to render in XDCAM HD natively.

FCP and Vegas both output to XDCAM HD 35mbps HQ back on XDCAM discs. I believe FCP is unable to output 18mbps XDCAM HD. However, I doubt anyone would want to output back to 18/25mbps anyhow. Even Avid supports XDCAM HD now. Only Adobe Premiere CS3 does not support XDCAM SD/HD without Main Concept's plug-in.

Drew

I would agree, pull them from the card to a hard drive before editing.

I would also agree on converting the MPEG to another codec for ease of editing either firewire in and convert on the fly or convert them once on the hard drive.

But if you really want to you can just edit them straight away and mix with other formats as well.

I'll do some speed tests to see how fast they render to another codec like Canopus HQ for editing.

Wags, open timeline has been a feature for several NLE programs (Avid being the first one I believe) for a while now. If you are saying that Canopus can render serious color corrections (multi-layer color gradings, color keying etc),3D (picture in picture) or other efx (like slo mo, etc) and other titling or graphics (animation or uncompressed codecs integrated) in/or faster than realtime with your computer, then you have something special.

I did forget to add that in field operations, cards are sometimes copied directly to drives vs using the NLE interface, mostly the clear the card for further use. In those instances, being able to do a quick edit natively is a good thing to be able to do. Still it is not that important a feature as to set Canopus apart from other NLE. For many, the ability to work with r/t acceleration/HD SDI i/o cards from Aja or Decklink vs another breakout box. The fact is there is not much support for Canopus outside Thomson Grass Valley's own stable, whose Ignite and Spirit systems are more established players in production for broadcast and film. Grass Valley does establish Canopus in broadcast of course, but for the independent production houses, there are fewer plugins, cards and manufacturers working with Canopus.

Also for those who work with XDCAM EX in HQ 1920 x 1080/30P (35mbps HQ codec), Edius does not currently support that particular frame rate.

Thanks to a wetpixel reader for bringing this up to me.

Yeh but Drew remember we are just joe public shooters here and we are not making Hollywood movies so no we don't have high end gear, HDCAMs, uncompressed editing codecs and super fast RAID drive.

All I am saying is that I can achieve some pretty cool stuff with my basic home made PC with normal cheap single SATA drives with these consumer video formats.

3 x 1440/1080 3D flying picture in picture with colour correction in realtime or 9 static 1440/1080 pips is good for me.

You are correct, no 1920 x 1080 / 30P YET.

You have full frame (1920x1080) for 59.94i, 50i and 23.97p only.

If you want to edit in 30p you only have 1440x1080 preset for now.

Wags, I'm not sure what you are on about with Bollywood movies?

The original post by you was to tell everybody about Edius' ability to edit XDCAM EX natively. I'm thinking the PMW-EX1 is not a consumer camera that 'joe public' buys for fun. The discussion went into the merits of editing off the media cards and editing native vs 4:2:2 loseless codecs. Then I find out that Edius cannot edit 1080/30P in HQ, which is a limitation of support for the EX1, for those who do shoot in 30P in HQ (which is a broadcast standard). To those users, it could be a make or break feature and letting them know is not a bad thing.

Every NLE has issues with computers and cameras, mainly because there are so many out there. Canopus has to take the heat for not providing workflows for all formats from the EX1, just as Apple has to take crap for a plethora of issues, including lack of .m2t and Red Raw Code 4k support, not to mention Quicktime crap!

err..Well we are not making movies here as we don't use full HD cameras etc. Some of those Bollywood ones are real cool to watch sometimes though.

OKAY so the EX camera is for the average PROSUMER Joe ....there are allot of them also out there. Some call them baby boomer's....folks with cash to buy toys. Anyone more professional will use something better.

Anyhow the 1920/1080 30p is missing but some have been just loading them up into a 1920/1080 60i etc timeline and away they go anyhow. I think though converting it to the Canopus HQ codec is best as then you can really wizz through it instead of having to deal with MPEG. I wonder how many of them need it in 1980/1020 anyhow as their final delivery format. 1440/1080 will be fine for now as it's pretty hard to pick the difference for most. It will probably end up on a standard DVD or TV anyhow. If it's HD TV they are not missing much as they beam it out as 20megs ish blocky MPEG anyhow.

I'm sure the 1920/1080 30p thing will be sorted soon anyhow for those that really want to use it.

It's good to see your thoughts about Quicktime are the same as mine

Wags

1080/30P imported into 60i and reconverted back to 30P defeats the purpose of shooting P in the first place. Not to mention it degrades the image resolution due to interlacing and deinterlacing progressive clips. I would not recommend that for anyone... even baby boomers, who'll then complain the EX1 is a crap camera because it's not sharp.

Converting it to Canopus HQ is the same as converting it to DNX or ProRes, thus taking away the one advantage Canopus had and which you touted as a major plus.

Quicktime sucks if you have to work outside FCS, that's true. But Shake is a better compositor than AE although not as flexible, but more powerful. And now it's even cheaper than AEFX CS3.

Well Drew I suppose the 1920/1080 30p thing will be sorted soon anyhow for those that want to shoot in that progressive mode. For 1920/1080 interlaced shooters it's no problems.

At the end of the day people will also have to make a decision as to edit in the raw hard to edit HDV or convert to an intermediate codec for much more performance in realtime.

Looking into it more it looks like people are getting great results converting the hard to edit HDV MPEG to the 1440/1080p Canopus HQ as it's so much easier to edit. Batch convert all the files once on the hard drive kind of thing.

Cineforms $500 intermediate codec Aspect HD only goes to 1440/1080 and if you want 1920/1080 you have to buy the $1000 Prospect HD plugin.

What about Apple's Intermediate Codec, does that do 1920/1080.

I really think most users would find it hard to pick the quality difference of 1920/1080 30p and 1440/1080 30p. Especially if going out to normal DVD,s and who is going to be making big numbers of Glass Pressed Blu-Rays due to their huge crazy cost. Home made Blu-Rays for weddings or corporate customers... well the customers certainly will not be able to pick the difference.

I suppose the 1920/1080 30p thing will be sorted soon anyhow for those that want to shoot in that progressive mode. For 1920/1080 interlaced shooters it's no problems.

Yes, well until Canopus does, it's not the all encompassing NLE solution that it's touted to be for XDCAM EX clips. And potential buyers should be aware of this limitation. I doubt anyone wants to buy a $999 piece of software that isn't fully compatible for the camera of choice. Vegas is half the price and fully compatible because it's Sony owned. On the mac side, FCS2 covers all flavors of XDCAM HD.

Cineforms $500 intermediate codec Aspect HD only goes to 1440/1080 and if you want 1920/1080 you have to buy the $1000 Prospect HD plugin.

Well Canopus HQ is pretty much an 8bit, 1440x1080 codec as well no? Cineform supports Adobe for a reason, because Adobe Premiere Pro lacks their complete own codec support. But they admit it in their website... albeit not too well. If you are using Vegas, Media Composer etc, the NEO HD codec is $499 for up to 1920x1080.

At the end of the day people will also have to make a decision as to edit in the raw hard to edit HDV or convert to an intermediate codec for much more performance in realtime.

Looking into it more it looks like people are getting great results converting the hard to edit HDV MPEG to the 1440/1080p Canopus HQ as it's so much easier to edit. Batch convert all the files once on the hard drive kind of thing.I really think most users would find it hard to pick the quality difference of 1920/1080 30p and 1440/1080 30p. Especially if going out to normal DVD,s and who is going to be making big numbers of Glass Pressed Blu-Rays due to their huge crazy cost. Home made Blu-Rays for weddings or corporate customers... well the customers certainly will not be able to pick the difference.

Well Wags, again I think you just removed any advantage of having native support and also even having an EX1. What's the point of being able to shoot 1920x1080 if you have to convert to 1440x1080 because your NLE codec can't support it. There is a real quantifiable difference in quality and resolution. I choose a product that works for how I want it to work, not the other way round. I mean limitations are one thing but to me, that's handicapping.

By your new logic, what's the difference between Vegas, Canopus and even MovieMaker if the layperson can't tell the difference? Why buy an EX1?

Apple's ProRes422 codec is fully compatible with 1920x1080 from 24-30p/50-60i. In fact FCS2 works with 2k resolution files. But this thread isn't about FCP.

Drew I think we could go on forever.

Remember it not just about editing one format with your NLE and the 30p will be sorted by the time I get one of the cameras.

Once again I just finished another government touch up project for the conservation group here and in it there was a mix of DV 4.3, 16.9, and HDV . Not only did it cut it up super easy but making the DVD files was very easy and super fast.

I need a all round NLE that can edit XDCAM EX, DV 4.3, 16.9 and HDV altogether for future projects. I also need a NLE that can render out and author a day DVD with chapters in a matter of minutes. It would be abit silly to use a NLE that is not an all rounder for the stuff I do.

As for 8 bit, sure it's not as good as 10 bit but the Canopus HQ 8 bit is better or was better than the Aspect HD 8 bit one.

No I am not making super high quality HD productions for HDTV or the cinema nor are all the uses here because if we were we would be using something like a HDCAM and edit it on a $100,000 NLE at full res/rate and not the little toys that we use.

I don't know much about the MAC world except that you pay $1000 for the computer and $3000 for the little APPLE MAC logo on the side and then you have to keep buying the latest OP SYS to load up any new software versions that you may buy.

Different strokes for different blokes...

arrr.. thats better.

Nah I'm done.

Canopus can't do 1920x1080/30p XDCAM EX, thus has no practical advantage over other NLEs. It's safe to say it is NOT fully recommended for XDCAM users who shoot in 30p especially. That's pertinent on this thread whose subject matter pertained to XDCAM EX editing. Nothing you have said can't be done with other popular NLE (even 'budget' ones like Vegas Pro 8.0) with the other formats as you have said.

So am I

Going back to editing native MXF files is a waste of disk space to me. I enjoy the ability (in FCP for instance) to mark my ins and outs from my P2 media (After copied to drive) and only export to quicktime, what I want to use for edit or good takes, trimming the fat off if you will. Then I back up all of my "good" stuff to blu-ray, trash the Contents/lastclip and continue on to editing. I don't know the EX workflow yet, but I'm guessing it's close to the same as P2, no?

Rob