Sony PMW-EX series discussion

Split the topic so this discussion isn't diluted with the silly tape vs media nonsense.

The EX3 is going for $8320 pre-order price at many online stores. The EX1 at $6499 (with a 8GB card rebate in the US).

The Letus and other 35mm devices allow the user to use shallow DOF. That is something that isn't always desirable on natural history shooting. Plus the overall sensor crop factor makes even the shortest lenses a longer lens. That's why there are 6mm lenses for 2/3 sensors.

One of the reasons why many productions have moved to a CCD camera for topside shooting is due to the jiggly running and stuff (see Ultimate Survival etc) which can stress a rolling shutter response on a CMOS sensor. So know what you are shooting and plan for it.

The Flash and Nano modules from Convergent may give you 4:2:2 MPEG2 but that doesn't guarantee the Beeb will accept it for principal capture. They have a rather funky stringent list of criteria for HD capture and have excluded even S16mm film, which has more than enough resolution with the right telecine. That'd be grasping at straws until they finally announce their ruling.

Come up with a Top notch film with a EX1/EX3.. whatever, and it will be broadcasted somewhere... Its getting commissions with your B/C silver/bronze whatever cam thats the prob...

Dive safe

Dean(shoot and see)B

The Flash and Nano modules from Convergent may give you 4:2:2 MPEG2 but that doesn't guarantee the Beeb will accept it for principal capture. They have a rather funky stringent list of criteria for HD capture and have excluded even S16mm film, which has more than enough resolution with the right telecine. That'd be grasping at straws until they finally announce their ruling.

If they have their head up their butt far enough not to accept a format for broadcast that is showing in full movie theatres then STUFF em. There's more to the world than the BBC. They probably won't take RED or Genesis either. IMAX or nnothing eh?

Ok. With unofficial word today from a producer that Nat Geo classes the EX1 as "secondary class" I am at a bit of a loss. So you can produce a great show for Discovery but have it rejected by Nat Geo for co-commissioning or licensing b/c of the camera? I am surprised we are seeing such divergence in acceptance...this is getting too crazy. I wonder if Sony paid some "fees" to some folks to get it approved with certain broadcasters?

People, the point is that if you have a program that you want produced, check with the broadcasters. They may allow it or they may not. Whining about the Beeb or Natgeo not accepting a cheap camera's format (relative to a F23 etc) and citing corporate collusion theories is not going to change anything. The EX series are under $10k, mp4 long GOP 4.2.0 1/2" sensor cameras. The applications are limited by certain broadcasters who want a certain level of quality.

Look at the IMAX production Wild Oceans, big budget but imho, crap film ruined by bad luck and worse, bad planning.

Whining about the Beeb or Natgeo not accepting a cheap camera's format (relative to a F23 etc) and citing corporate collusion theories is not going to change anything. The EX series are under $10k, mp4 long GOP 4.2.0 1/2" sensor cameras. The applications are limited by certain broadcasters who want a certain level of quality.

In large part I agree with this. But, come on. Yes, the EX1 records to SxS with long GOP. So what? The power of the camera is that SDI spigot. The HVX offers three ways to record. Tape, card, and firewire. Tape is the lowest common denominator and it's not very good. P2 and Firewire offer the best the camera can offer. The EX1 also has three means of recording. Firewire, card, and SDI. It's poorest method of recording is light years ahead of the HVX's. It's primary means of recording is the equal or better than the HVX, and it's best method or recording blows away anything around.

So characterizing the EX1 as a mp4 long GOP 4:2:0 camera is as fair as saying the HVX is a DV camera. I prefer to rate the cameras by the best they can offer.

I have a feeling if someone were to dub footage from the HD-SDI out on the EX1 onto HDCAM SR and present it to the BBC, they'd have little issue with the footage. Well at least until they found out it was shot with a cheap Handycam.

Discovery also rates XDCAM EX format footage as second class (silver, but not gold), and with only a few exceptions (Plant Earth, etc...) the entire line of Discovery's networks is filled with second class footage and it looks great. The majority of the programming is shot in XDCAM HD these days and the EX1 is now classified in the same category. The other thing that you have going for you is that underwater footage is given a little more latitude by producers because it is believed that it is generally less clear by nature then footage captured in air. Which is debatable, but don't tell anyone of consequence that because it works for us and not against us.

The power of the camera is that SDI spigot. The HVX offers three ways to record. Tape, card, and firewire. Tape is the lowest common denominator and it's not very good. P2 and Firewire offer the best the camera can offer. The EX1 also has three means of recording. Firewire, card, and SDI. It's poorest method of recording is light years ahead of the HVX's. It's primary means of recording is the equal or better than the HVX, and it's best method or recording blows away anything around.

Errr how did the HVX200 get involved with this? It's also considered SD by all broadcasters.

I have a feeling if someone were to dub footage from the HD-SDI out on the EX1 onto HDCAM SR and present it to the BBC, they'd have little issue with the footage. Well at least until they found out it was shot with a cheap Handycam.

Then I have to say your feelin would be wrong. It's good but not that good. The latitude given by 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 with 2/3 sensors is the main reason for HDCAM preference. I can't explain it. Shoot a scene with strong sunlight and a corrected gamma curve on a F900/3 and you'll see the difference. It's really simple.

The other thing that you have going for you is that underwater footage is given a little more latitude by producers because it is believed that it is generally less clear by nature then footage captured in air. Which is debatable, but don't tell anyone of consequence that because it works for us and not against us.

Actually it can also go the other way. For instance, in this last BBC production they used the F900 and Arri III S16 shooting at 50-105fps. For the conditions, the extra latitude from the HDCAM 3:1:1 144mb/s was the reason they tried not to use lower end cameras. UW shoots demand the most latitude due to the subtle color grade shifts and of course in some shots, the sun plays a huge role in making or breaking a shot. Chroma and luma latitude aside, you also have to allow for post production which can stress even 10bit 4:4:4 HDCAM SR.

Errr how did the HVX200 get involved with this? It's also considered SD by all broadcasters.

Only because I've seen it used on some shoots for Discovery, and it's often brought up as a valid capture camera because of its DVCProHD codec.

Then I have to say your feelin would be wrong. It's good but not that good. The latitude given by 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 with 2/3 sensors is the main reason for HDCAM preference. I can't explain it. Shoot a scene with strong sunlight and a corrected gamma curve on a F900/3 and you'll see the difference. It's really simple.

Drew, you do realize that the EX1 is kicking 1.5 Gbps 4:2:2 out of that SDI connection right? And you realize that the camera is processing internally at 4:4:4? Recording off the SDI port should actually give better than HDCAM performance, not taking the glass into account. I don't know that the 2/3" sensors over the 1/2" sensors are going to be THAT big a difference for 1080 or 720. Going for film out.. yes.

Some of the stuff we see on the big channels that are shot with higher end cameras is appalling... But thats not the operators fault... Theres just no colour in the sequences even at shallower depths.. this is prob down to the colourists / editors whatever... Its mostly leave it to the post guys.. But have all these 'guys' ever been underwater... or colour balanced... I think they colour it as they see it... as in blues or greens..

This argument will carry on forever.. But as the smaller channels and broadband channels start up better chances are there for us with medium spec cams.. well i hope so..

I'm not worried about big money or station kudos as much as i used to be... I just want to dive and film like i did before all the arguments came in... So if its smaller stations and less money... who gives a shit.. as long as i can pay the bills and be happy.. and of course bring a little knowledge to others then YEAH !!!

Dive safe

DeanB

Some of the stuff we see on the big channels that are shot with higher end cameras is appalling... But thats not the operators fault... Theres just no colour in the sequences even at shallower depths.. this is prob down to the colourists / editors whatever... Its mostly leave it to the post guys.. But have all these 'guys' ever been underwater... or colour balanced... I think they colour it as they see it... as in blues or greens...

 

 

I'm not worried about big money or station kudos as much as i used to be... I just want to dive and film like i did before all the arguments came in... So if its smaller stations and less money... who gives a shit.. as long as i can pay the bills and be happy..

I think that is all what it comes down to. As Drew pointed out, different tools for different jobs, wants and needs. Of course there will be limitations imposed at some point by any choice, but as you said there are other things also. Of course it is nice to try to stack the deck as much as possible, but it is not always possible.

Just to mix things up. Here is Nat Geo's stand:

"Approved Secondary" Cams

-Sony EX1

-Pani HPX500

-Pani HPX2000

"Non-Approved" Cams

-Sony Z1U

-Sony V1U

-Sony Z7U

-"Anything built on HDV platform

-"Anything built on DV platform"

Ouch! Not only is Ex1 a category down from Discovery but HDV is banned. I guess if you plan to shoot for anything at a broadcast level, probably have no choice to upgrade.

Drew, you do realize that the EX1 is kicking 1.5 Gbps 4:2:2 out of that SDI connection right? And you realize that the camera is processing internally at 4:4:4? Recording off the SDI port should actually give better than HDCAM performance, not taking the glass into account. I don't know that the 2/3" sensors over the 1/2" sensors are going to be THAT big a difference for 1080 or 720. Going for film out.. yes.

You don't have to convince me... write the Beeb and NGC. I'm just the messenger relaying the info and reasons. I happen to see what they mean and somewhat agree.

As for film out, Blue Planet became Deep Blue, a feature release. That contained a lot of miniDV shots. A lot of post worked into that. Planet Earth is going to be released as a feature film as well. Nothing wrong with making sure you can film out if the need arises.

Some of the stuff we see on the big channels that are shot with higher end cameras is appalling... But thats not the operators fault... Theres just no colour in the sequences even at shallower depths.. this is prob down to the colourists / editors whatever... Its mostly leave it to the post guys.. But have all these 'guys' ever been underwater... or colour balanced... I think they colour it as they see it... as in blues or greens..

Actually that is the look they want to preserve. Their reasoning is what is underwater should look like it's underwater. That cyan/blue hue is part of the look. The directors and producers are divers, they just don't want that "consumer" look. Grading and getting the most out of the image (usually bad viz, particulates etc) is not that easy.

It's also VERY important to realize that the editorial has the final say. If a sequence requires a couple of minutes of DV in a HD show, they'll use it if they can get it to look good enough.

If you are shooting an entire doco, then talk to the producers.

Actually that is the look they want to preserve. Their reasoning is what is underwater should look like it's underwater. That cyan/blue hue is part of the look. The directors and producers are divers, they just don't want that "consumer" look. Grading and getting the most out of the image (usually bad viz, particulates etc) is not that easy.

Consumer look ??? Thus giving a 'sort of' false impression... Where as you show people the same footage with the proper colouring the wow factor would go through the roof..... Similar to when they colour WW2 footage from its original B&W... people are amazed.. we don't really think life was in black and white back then...

Dive safe

DeanB

On that note, I know one or two F900/IMax shooters that WB every shot and use CC filters extensively. That would suggest to me that even at the very top of the game, there are strong differences in appreciation for what is "the look" that the producers and audience want.

Isn't SDI capture underwater pretty difficult as most housings will not have the extra room required?

Isn't SDI capture underwater pretty difficult as most housings will not have the extra room required?

I'm sure Gates or Amphibico could fashion up something. If you can connect a monitor, I am sure you can connect a small SDI recorder.

Actually with the way things are going it would be good to have standalone unit that would work for multiple housings... RED, EX, G1 etc etc

We've investigated a standalone housing for Flash XDR, but I am really worried about pushing 1.5ghz signal through the bulkheads connectors we have available now. I think S6 can do it, but wetmate connectors are not a solution.

At this time I think a Nano squeezed into the camera housing is the best solution, but that may change after we research this further.

Ryan the nano seems the more practical solution. But seeing how the Sony MRC-1 is giving so much trouble with a simple 25mb/s signal onto flash cards, I wonder how much reliable the Convergent Technologies unit will be in a housing. Remember that the conversion unit has to be activated separately from the camera. Also the heat generated by the units may be substantial. I still laugh at the FS100 overheating in the PU housings. Let's see when they actually deliver the products first.

Shawn, I was speaking about the Beeb NHU's preferences, not in general. I'm quite sure others do use MWB or filters... for some shots. Losing 1-2 stops of light with a filter isn't always a good choice despite the added colors.