Sony PMW-EX series discussion

Tape or no tape, what I care most about right now is an "affordable" cam that will shoot 4:2:2, at least 50mbs (want 100mbs), 1080 3ccd (maybe cmos), 1080p30 capable, 1 lux rating, and interchangeable lens options...all in the size of a Z1. I will pay for a custom housing if this cam comes out.

I am not excited about the lower res noisier sensors on the HVX200. I am also not happy with the long gop compression on the Z1. Neither cam gets it done sufficiently for true HD viewing unless conditions are optimal. In optimal conditions, the HVX has the edge...or so I am told.

I really like having tapes like Wags as back up. But, I also always lug my laptop and ext drives with me b/c I am always editing on the road and I capture bits of my footage to make sure the image I "think" I am getting is the one I am "actually" getting. Hard to reshoot the mating whale sharks back in the studio. Battery life is an issue for some of the remote shooting I do as well.

In the end, I want HDCAM SR in a Z1 form factor

PMW-EX3 is as close as you are going to get now. Put a Flash XDR on it, and you've nearly got what you want.

EX3

4:2:2 = no (4:2:0)

50-100mbs = no (35mbs - 50mbs?)

1080p30 = yes (and 720p60!)

1080 sensors = yes

1 lux = ?

Interchange lens = yes

Plus = tape to harddrive transfer on cam!

So great specs but I am worried about 4:2:0 and bit rate. I suppose when we see real footage this will be seen.

And...13K price tag...ouch.

Spend some time learning about why 4:2:0 chroma sampling at 1080p isn't really so bad. In fact, it equates to HIGHER sampling that 4:2:2 on the HVX or similar cameras.

Yes, the EX3 WILL give 100+ Mbps from the SDI port which is why I said with the Flash XDR recorder. But even without it, the 35mbps will be more solid than nearly anything out there. Good enough in fact that Discovery HD bought off on the codec for broadcast.

1 lux = garbage. No camera, film, video, or otherwise, shoots a broadcast capable image at 1 lux. The EX3 and EX1 give F10 at 2000 lux. Which is better than the DVX and better than the PD170, which have LONG been considered low-light champions. AND it does it while providing real 1080p resolution with zero gain.

The 13k price tag is a bargain. There isn't another camera that will touch it for less than $50k. If you want it cheaper, then buy an EX1 with a Letus or a Redrock. Problem solved. I spent a year researching my next camera purchase after the DVX100, and took delivery of an EX1 this week. There simply wasn't anything on the market even close for it's price. There wasn't anything close less than $30k. Scarlet MAY have been the closest competitor, but I wasn't willing to wait a year to find out. The HPX170 MAY be in the same league, but again, given Panasonic's track record, I wasn't about to play that waiting game.

The EX1/EX3 at 1080 looks and performs better than RED at 2k. And it does it for 1/4 the price. That was enough for me.

-P

EX3

4:2:2 = no (4:2:0)

50-100mbs = no (35mbs - 50mbs?)

1080p30 = yes (and 720p60!)

1080 sensors = yes

1 lux = ?

Interchange lens = yes

Plus = tape to harddrive transfer on cam!

 

So great specs but I am worried about 4:2:0 and bit rate. I suppose when we see real footage this will be seen.

 

And...13K price tag...ouch.

I think the main reason people use the P2 format - myself included - is the fact that it's DVCPro 100. Sure, HDV to a tape is nice, but in the end it's still compressed MPG2. I just posted in another thread about having to lug a laptop, and having workflow issues. I can tell you in the 2 years that I've had my camera, I've never had a problem with it at all. Whether it's shooting straight to the P2 cards, or using an FS100. And I recently got bus powered, 7200RPM FireWire 800 drives that work like a champ, and they're tiny little things. If I did underwater stuff professionally, I would have gotten a housing for my HVX - no question.

EXACTLY Filmbeloh20! Who cares if you shoot tape or data; data rate and compression are far more important. I shoot P2 to a firestore underwater because we can shoot over two hours, that's cool, but as an editor of 12 years; I shoot DVCPRO-HD for the 4:2:2 color sample and to avoid the MPEG-2 GOP nightmare. 35 or 100bps? ?How can long GOP be practical, to reference a frame way back when- for compression, especially underwater? Talking head? Yes for HDV. Underwater? You tell me. I know the HVX-200 is the camera of earth-touch and many other producers BECAUSE it is a pro format. HDV is not. [reality: gotta have the SDI signal. Once on tape- forget it.] Another advantage is the option of shooting directly to QuickTime.

Lastly, each day my entire team gathers to watch everything we've shot. I think they gather for the food, and we happen to run the clips. We watch the full 1080 signal via firestore, pending the monitor, we jump from clip to clip and mark them up on the fly. When I load the clips for post we're half done.

I know this thread is a montage of all kinds of stuff but I am enjoying it. What did they have to say about the F900 vs Ex1?

Also, you said: "Good enough in fact that Discovery HD bought off on the codec for broadcast'.

Are you saying Discovery is accepting EX1 at 35mbs as a Primary format? If so, I am buying one.

Are you saying Discovery is accepting EX1 at 35mbs as a Primary format? If so, I am buying one.

It's been discussed, but in trying to verify it, I cannot. I had read that it had been signed off as "Silver Level" by Discovery HD.

Meanwhile, if you haven't read this little post, you should:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=125921

That is a great thread. Would love to hear if you verify the discovery primary format question.

Also, you said: "Good enough in fact that Discovery HD bought off on the codec for broadcast'.

 

Are you saying Discovery is accepting EX1 at 35mbs as a Primary format? If so, I am buying one.

Sigh... http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?act=S...st&p=161124

Drew,

You and I both know that the EX1 is good. Is it RED? No. And it doesn't claim to be. The EX1 is a LONG way from 4k 4:4:4 through $15k primes.

 

Now that said, I've read article after article from people I admire who are cutting the EX1 in with some serious cameras. Yes, it's a B-Roll camera. But I seriously think it's making inroads in some places people didn't expect.

Sure, especially of the size etc. However, I have to interject when someone makes a statement like it beats out Red without clarifications. Every production chooses a product based on their needs. Like the sequel Crash 2 is shot with the XH series because they wanted CCD vs CMOS to reduce the chance of rolling shutter when they are running etc. A tool for the job.

Just last week Discovery issued their official report and determination on the EX1.

read report

Discovery Producers Portal

Sorry, I didn't realize that a login was required to view report. The long and the short of it is Silver Standard. That opens the door to most of Discovery networks. Stay on you toes everyone, the competition is going to get fierce, and I'm afraid that footage rates will drop because of it. But maybe that's a whole other post.

That's great news. Drew, I didn't follow the thread to its conclusion where it said it does count for Discovery but not BBC. Odd that one accepts but not the other?

Time to buy the EX1 or perhaps the EX3 but no housing?

The EX1 has a housing, but I have not heard of plans for the EX3. As promising as the EX3 seems for top-side work, I am not so sure about it for underwater work. The viewfinder is in a far less than ideal place. You wouldn't get to use many of it's upgraded features like genlock, timecode, rca audio outs, etc. It's recording with exactly the same codec so the picture is not going to be any better. And the available interchangable lenses would likely render any standard housing unusable. I'd rather spend the extra $6k on the housing for the EX1.

I'm REALLY hoping to see some underwater footage from this setup to if the naysayers are right about the 35 mbps codec not being able to handle underwater footage well. It seems funny to me because I've been looking at and editing first generation 1080i HDV footage for a while and it looks pretty good. I've seen second generation HDV footage and it looks spectacular. Given another 10 mbps, better lens, better low-light capability, far less noise, and more resolution to work with, the EX1 should produce some fabulous footage for a Handycam sized camera.

The 35mbps is heaps better and just wait till you see the raw footage from these cameras. It handles pans & zooms much better. Hey I paid for my useless 25mbps FX1 HDV setup just in the archive material I shot with it for TV doco's around the place.

The EX3 has ilink for easy electronic control housing manufacture and the position of the LCD is perfect.

The EX1 has to be fully clunky mechanicaly controlled which means it takes much more time to do things in the field like put the camera in and out plus change tapes or cards. I can change a tape on the Phenom in 15 second flat.

Take the eye piece off and it could be designed abit like this which is a great position to shoot with being the camera is slightly below you for better control. No silly external monitor or tiny eye piece to look into.

It's going to be my next camera.

Wagsy, I have an EX1. And you're right. The images are stunning. Interesting housing, and maybe you're right about where the viewfinder is.

It's going to be my next camera.

I'm going to wait for the Scarlet

The EX3 has ilink for easy electronic control housing manufacture and the position of the LCD is perfect.

The EX1 has to be fully clunky mechanicaly controlled which means it takes much more time to do things in the field like put the camera in and out plus change tapes or cards. I can change a tape on the Phenom in 15 second flat.

 

 

 

Wags you are Unreal.. Soooooo obvious you have something to do with Amphibico... BIASED just AINT the word... But i suppose thats why many of the shooters I know from the BBC have used Gates because they are clunky mechanical housings.. Anyway your not going down the EX3 tapeless route as it would go against everything you hold so dear about lovely tapes...

By the way you can change batteries and media in a gates pretty quickly i've been told.. Just open the back and away you go...

Dive safe

Dean(nothing to do with any manufacturer what so ever)B

I wonder if the size difference on the Ex3 will necessitate a much larger housing and create a substantial travel overhead. If he codec were different I could see justifying the tradeoff. But they produce the same images. It would seem that interchangeable lens is not much of a benefit underwater if you can use quality u/w domes.

I also wonder if flooding an EX 1 would be less painful than an Ex3 from a cost standpoint. Also, cams keep improving. Seems chasing sensor, bit rate and image quality for the lowest price is the good strategy. That way you "save" money for the next cam. In this game we are lucky to get 2-3 years on a rig if we want to stay competitive.

Perhaps an Ex1 underwater with a good topside cam (Ex3?) is a safe strategy. Loose one cam and you can still shoot the topside story with either way. If you put your only A cam underwater and something goes wrong, you have nothing to shoot all the interviews you save for those last days on the shoot. You can then do an off cycle rotation on upgrades with one cam every 2-3 years.

What do you guys think?

BTW Wags...what is that housing?

Tough call.

You could get an EX1 with a Letus, and half a dozen primes for the cost of the EX3, and still not miss the features much if you aren't shooting multi-cam or shooting tethered. Buying Nikon or Canon glass, even ED or L glass, is going to be cheaper than buying that 1/2 or 2/3 glass (with adapter) to stick on the EX3. It's not that I don't like it, I just don't see it's usefulness for this market. If you REALLY want to step up to an A-Camera, then get a new 700 or some other full size cam with a better codec. The EX1 hits the sweet spot pretty well coming in under $7k or about $10k with interchangable lenses. $3k can buy you a lot of nice glass. Maybe an 18mm F2, and 105mm F2, a short zoom at F2.8, and a long zoom at F4. Those 4 lenses would cover you for nearly anything you'd want to shoot.

But then again, I might something without that rolling shutter if I was going to be on a boat shooting. Underwater is ok, and on land is ok, but I don't know about those low freq. harmonics based on the footage I saw posted this week.

Funny when I think about it, but the EX1 is about the same size as my old Nikon F4S with my old 100-300 F4 APO zoom. That's pretty easy to maneuver around with. Going to a shoulder mount could be a pain.

I guess you could always blow the wad on the Flash XDR. That's probably what I'd do. You get cheaper storage, and a HUGELY better codec to work with. Take your video to BBC level from the same small camera for a $4500 investment. Now that sounds like money well spent for people selling footage.

To each their own though.

Sound really good. The Flash XDR could be a bargain to deliver 4:2:2 at 100 mbs (what I originally wanted) . Far cheaper than HDCAM or equivalent setups. I wonder if you could tuck this in an UW housing?

On a final note, it appears the compressed 35mbs Long GOP is causing issues and debate when panning. Looks to be a real concern to me. Check out: http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/142/856569