Subject: Raja Ampat Cityseahorse Deb Fugitt Ondina

At the risk of transatlantic amity being jeopardised, I have noticed that US citizens are far more vocal in their criticism of poor service and poor food and poor facilities than are europeans.

Well, to be honest, we in America don't often say, "Let's go out for some English food tonight"

Thankfully I haven't been on a live-aboard that served us high quality steak and kidney pie, blood pudding and haggis.

I can understand someone not liking the boat, or the food, or they way Deb runs the trip, or even Deb herself. I'm absolutely sure that we had at least one person on our boat who fell into one or more of those categories, but some of the statements made here were either mis-characterizations or from an unrealistic perspective. The idea that if one were on a different boat, the vis would have been better, they would have beamed you to Cape Kri for your checkout dives, pelagics would have been abundant and one would have gone to a different equally good "high voltage" dive site after every two dives is just false.

I had no intension of signing up for Deb's trip. I was searching for a Sorong to Sorong itinerary during a specific time frame. The only space available was the Ondina. I inquired about the trip right before Deb's and was told to contact Deb. We ended up taking the last two spots on her trip instead. It was just a convenience thing. So I'm not speaking as a fanboy multi-trip customer.

It is my opinion that being on Deb's trip yielded a better trip than if had I booked a standard spot on the Ondina or perhaps even most other boats. Photographically, I got exactly what I wanted out of the diving, if not more. I am not of fan of the boat. The food was OK. I've said enough. The original post needed a reasonable counterpoint.

...If anything, Tom has helped Deb to detail her trip itineraries and the type of diving one can expect on her trips publicly. Hopefully future clients will read this thread and know what they are paying for. . .

...not all photogs want to sit in a site and get the same photos of the same subjects as everyone else...

...You also have to consider other boats in the area. If a boat sits on a site for the day, other boats are left out or it gets crowded...

Good points, Drew, and not really too far off topic because those issues are pertinent to anyone reading this thread/thinking of diving Raja Ampat.

Your post does, however, beg slight clarification on my part. I hope I didn't give the impression that Deb just "parks" the boat and dives one site all day every day, or that her Raja Ampat trips are mostly muck/macro diving. On the contrary; Raja Ampat offers such great wide angle diving that most of her itinerary focuses on that. In fact, most days she only does one dive per site and then moves because currents are only to her liking (optimal for photography) for one dive at a time, or maybe two. She'd rather return to that site another day when currents are similarly ideal than do another dive, than to stay for a second dive just to avoid pulling anchor. Frankly, I've never been on a boat where there were so many "one dive and move on" sites.

As for keeping other boats from diving a site (because of staying in one place), I agree that that is an increasing issue in Raja Ampat. My first trip there (which was with Deb in early 2005), we didn't see another dive boat the entire time. On our trip a few months ago, we saw numerous boats in numerous areas (e.g., Cape Kri). Deb communicated/coordinated with them who would dive where and when, and it wasn't a problem (we actually pulled anchor and moved at least one time even though we were there first), but I agree that as more and more boats dive the area, that will become more of an issue, and will require not only good communication between operators, but identification of more good sites to spread boats out more. Deb seems very cognizant of those issues.

This is really long… but I can't rest until I respond to this in detail!

I suppose I should thank Tom Witt for this opportunity. bmyates is right.. this gives me (and others) a good chance to point out what is good about Raja Ampat and these special trips. I'm viewing this as an excellent opportunity for good promo.. the more places he posts it, the better!!

TRIP RESEARCH

Tom's is one opinion, coming from a man who didn't take advantage of the webpages, newsletters, articles, galleries, links to previous guests galleries or the private 18 page trip FAQ to research this trip before he booked for himself and two friends. More on this at the end of my post...

Those documents explain that the trips are targeted toward photographers and to those who like to dive like the photographers. They explain about the days of open deck diving where we stay and allow divers to dive as much as they like and when they like; the diversity of marine life; the variety of environments we dive, such as the shallow sites Tom dislikes so immensely.

Check them yourself as they are all linked from my trip webpage:

www.cityseahorse.com/rajaampat

My trips are not for everyone. I always write "If you want to dive deep, go fast and do a different site on every dive, these trips are not for you".

I DO go to great lengths to describe what the trip is about. In addition to those readily available documents, I answer any and all questions from potential guests in great detail. Tom didn't ask questions... again details on this at the end of my post.

I request info from each guest so I can tailor the trip and weed out unsuitable divers. Unsuitable meaning those who aren't compatible with other divers or the type of trip I run. Tom didn't provide adequate information about his requirements or expectations.

I think it's just too bad that when Tom discovered he was on an expensive trip that wasn't what he expected, he couldn't have been open minded enough to find out the reason his shipmates were having a great time. Perhaps he could have learned something from the other divers or guides. Already several people from the Nov trips are planning to return and liked the idea of a 14 day trip so we can spend more days on the favorite dive sites.

Linda Cline already has a gallery from Nov. (and some nice comments about her trip with us) on her site:

http://www.dancingfish.com/gallery/photos/RajaAmpat08/

PASSIVE, SEDATE, COMPLACENT OR SHEEPLIKE DIVERS?

This is the phrase that really got to me!!! For SURE very few of the divers on these trips are "passive, sedate, complacent or sheep-like".

The other divers on the same trip as Tom's group certainly could not be described as such. I can assure you that they were not passive, but passionate! They explored, were creative, their minds were open to a variety of experiences so they enjoyed these very diverse sorts of dive sites and the opportunity to see those sites under different conditions.

They were a pleasure to be around.

While Tom sulked in his cabin his shipmates were spending time underwater, seeing unexplored areas they wanted to dive (so we arranged for them to go there), making beautiful images at the surface in the mangroves, finding places to do over/under images , seeing nudibranch species we've never found before, watching cuttlefish placing eggs in the reef, etc. etc. and enjoying their trip for the tremendous variety of environments and life that exist in Raja Ampat.

It wasn't until Tom's post on this forum that I realized he was probably sulking. I thought he was one of those people that was not comfortable being around other people. We've had several like that aboard.

VARIETY OF DIVING EXPERIENCES

I think of each Raja Ampat trip as a chance to make your own mini-Blue Planet documentary in 11-12 days.

I advertise my charters as offering a lot of variety with mangroves, shallow reef and rainforest dives, piers, mantas, small critter macro, fishy reef dives, dives on rock islands. That is what we do. All of it. Unless the majority of guests aboard want to do something different, I provide what I advertise. On Tom's trip everyone wanted to spend more dives with mantas, so I adjusted the plan to provide that.

There is no set itinerary. Each trip is tailored according to the conditions of weather, visibility, strength and direction of currents. We even vary mealtimes to accommodate diving at the best times. On Tom's trip the visibility was not as good as usual. So we spent the first part of the trip in areas where good vis doesn't matter so much, hoping for improvement. Didn't get it, but we did try! Usually we can find good vis by moving from the north to south or vice versa. Not this time. Universally poor.

Although we spend a full day on some sites, we don't dive the same areas seeing exactly the same things unless requested (which does happen frequently). Most of these sites are huge with a large and diverse variety of scenes and marine life to enjoy and photograph. The experience on a site changes during the day with the direction and strength of current and sun, tidal flow, etc. Just because you dive a site several times doesn't mean you have seen all it has to offer. I spend multiple days at some of them every year. There are still parts of them I've never seen and there are always new and surprising experiences even after 10 years.

Sure, you can blow down a reef in a few minutes; say you've BTDT and tic it off your lifetime dive site list. But if you become interested in watching or photographing the marine life and move slowly the experience is much richer and you see much more than if you are speeding along.

Comments were from others on the Nov. trips are that the variety of sites and marine life on this trip were far more than on any other trip they've ever made.

KEELING IN MUCK FOR SHOT OF NEMO?

Deep doesn't mean better.. it just means deeper and less bottom time. We do spend quite a lot of time at shallow sites. Those are some of the best sites and the reason we can offer so much variety. For example in Nov. at 10ft and above I encountered: reef sharks, Wobbegong sharks, the "Walking Sharks", seahorses, pygmy seahorses, many species of nudibranchs including 2 I'd never seen before; schools of silversides, bream, fusiliers and batfish; archerfish schools and cleaning stations, turtles, many soft corals, black corals and colorful fans… Really far too many creatures to name here.

Those sites Tom specifically berated are exactly the ones where most of the best images are made. Most photographers have trouble passing up an attractive "Nemo", I know I do, but these photographers weren't "kneeling in 35 feet on a mundane, ordinary reef dive after dive for yet one more photo of Nemo", they spent their trip swimming through and exploring a huge variety of underwater terrain while watching and photographing a diverse array of interesting and usual marine life.

One example. That shallow pier Tom mentioned happens to be one of the favorite sites for photography. Others on the Nov. trips produced images at that pier that ranged from stunning to breathtaking and I expect to see them taking top prizes in International UW photo competitions. Even Tom's non-photographer friend came made a very nice shot of mating Mandarianfish with his point and shoot camera (won a 2nd place in the trip contest) at that pier. One photog did a 2.5 hour dive. Couldn't get him out of the water! There were 6 dives offered that day. Two with mantas and four at the pier (pier was open deck). First two dives the pier had massive schools of bream and silversides, soft corals on the pier pilings, a fair sized school of approachable young batfish, large schools of several varieties of fusiliers, giant clams, cuttlefish at 5ft., nudibranchs. 2nd dive the kids were out of school so were fishing on the pier, paddling wooden canoes around the area and diving down to pose for photos. 3rd dive was for Mandarianfish (always a favorite subject), 4th pier dive was a night dive. All dives very different.

MISLEADING COMMENTS:

CABINS

"at least three of them had AC issues"

I will say that the AC units on Ondina are old and need replacing. My cruise director and I reported to the owners and they have instructed the crew to immediately replace any units that are not functioning correctly.

One compressor services two cabins. On this particular trip the AC in each cabin was checked before departure. Yet, on the 3nd day, one unit was sending all the cold air into one cabin and none into the other cabin it supported. We had an AC technician from a pearl farm come out for a look. He could not solve the problem so the guests were immediately moved into a different cabin. Problem solved. I took the cabin with no AC, added a fan and was quite comfortable. I learned the last day from Tom's cabin mate (not from Tom) that the fan in Tom's cabin wasn't pushing air properly… it was cold air, just fan not working. It was serviced between trips. Fan needed cleaning.

"and one of them had problems with fumes and exhaust from gasoline or diesel"

This was reported by Mark and Linda, who investigated when the problem occurred a second time. They determined that when at anchor with the breeze a certain direction it occasionally blew generator exhaust through the outside door into the cabin corridor where it came into their cabin through the vents in the door. Problem solved by keeping that outside door closed.

FOOD

"the food was seriously lacking. Fried something for almost every lunch and dinner. Instant noodles appeared more than once or twice".

If Tom doesn't eat fried food or noodles, there was ample opportunity to state his food preferences before and during the trip. There are other choices and the kitchen would have prepared something special for him if he asked. He asked only for "beer, cold, lots of it". As per his request we had plenty of beer!

Baked, steamed, raw, grilled, sautéed and boiled food also appeared. I'm not sure what fried food or noodle dish was a problem. Krupuk appeared at every meal (Indonesian version of potato chips). They are fried. I remember Tempura, a lightly breaded pan fried chicken breast stuffed with cheese and French Fries. Does fried include stir fried? Instant noodles? Not sure which noodles Tom' refers to. Ondina doesn't make noodles.. so all are "instant". Perhaps it was the Mie Kuah or the Mie Goreng? Those are standard Indonesian fare that most people like just fine and are some of our favorite dishes. As I said, there is always more than one choice.

Ondina doesn't offer gourmet food, just good tasting, quality food. I've noted in my years of travel that the best food is always local dishes, so that's the special menu I request unless guests' ask otherwise. We served mostly Indonesian dishes (Western style with less chilli and more meat/veggies) with some Western dishes mixed in. Excellent bread is baked every day on the ship as were fresh muffins, pastries. DOUGHNUTS are my favourite. Not the soaked in sugar goody masses of dough we get in the USA, but nice fresh slightly sweet ones with a few sprinkles of chocolate or sugar. There were different fresh soups at every dinner, sates, fresh salads (like green papaya, Gado Gado, mixed veggies), grilled fresh fish, sashimi, prawn and veggie Tempura, Beef Rendang, stuffed eggplants, some curries of different sorts, minced fish with spices steamed in a banana leaf, minced prawns or calamari with spices tied in a thin pastry bag, really good pizza, different freshly made sambals (chilli sauces) each day for those who like their food hot and spicy, etc. etc. Plus of course, always available fresh fruits like oranges, tangerines, mangosteen, passion fruit, rambutan, apples, bananas, pineapple, mango, papaya.

This menu has evolved over the years. We've eliminated dishes when the majority of people in the groups don't like them (even some of my personal favorites). Even when food it great, it sometimes doesn't suit everyone. Yet, I can't imagine choosing a dive trip based on the food. BTW, we can hardly find any restaurants in Fort Worth worth visiting. People here line up for plates containing huge quantities of microwaved tasteless glop at chain restaurants. We are sad to be home, but hope to lose some weight!

Comments from other guests served the same menu were that it was; the best liveaboard food they'd ever had; better than other top dive resorts in Indonesia (I could but won't name the specific resorts they mentioned.. they are ones noted for their good food); that they were overeating because it was all so wonderful.

DIVING

"Two entire days (10 hours per day), were spent at The Passage"

This is one of the favorite sites for most photographers. Actually we spent not two 10 hour days, but one short day (had to leave early as we had a long overnight cruise) and came back the last day as the site enforces shallow diving so that we can allow plenty of diving that last day before a flight the next. Max. depth averages 12-17ft. We used to spend only 1/2 day there, but the best images require certain conditions, so I am trying to offer a partial day mid-trip to have a better chance of getting those conditions.

"One day (four dives) at a small village pier. Depth about 15 to 45 feet."

Actually we did two manta dives in the morning (at the request of the divers aboard) and spent the afternoon at the pier. Depth 0-45ft. This was the pier I used as the example of different type of dives on the same site (see above).

"Another entire day (10 hours) was spent diving in a mangrove area."

That's true. It's a favorite spot, one that many divers request before booking the trip. I arranged the itinerary on the next trip so we could stay longer and yet several people asked to spend a second day. Unfortunately I could not oblige as they had requested we stayed two days at another area Tom hated and we needed to move or completely miss part of the diving around Misool. We are now talking with some of the Nov guests about a 14 day trip so we can spend more time at these favorite sites. Mangroves has excellent unusual wide angle photo ops.. plus loads of unusual nudis, ghost pipefish, odd fishes, shrimps, crabs, archerfish schools. I even found an archerfish cleaning station!

See my mangroves video from last April at http://www.cityseahorse.com/underwater-video

"the first afternoon spent on a checkout dive in Sorong harbor."

I've dived Sorong harbor. There is some nice diving for critters, but exceptionally poor vis. The 2004 Ondina contest winner was taken in Sorong harbor. However we didn't dive in Sorong harbor on this trip.

A few years ago Mikel took us exploring looking for good sites near Sorong. We found a good critter site just outside the harbor with zero to mild current, shallow. Perfect spot for checkout dives without going 5-6 hours to Raja Ampat and throwing divers into current for their checkout. Close means we can offer several dives the 1st day and then do the 5-6 hour cruise at night. On that site we've seen Wobbegong sharks, Raja Ampat epaulette sharks, Blue Ribbon eels, Spanish Dancers, frogfish with eggs!, anemones with a variety of anemonefish and loaded with shrimps and crabs, many nudibranchs, lobsters, eels, bommies covered with glassfish and cardinalfish, crinoid critters... it isn't Raja Ampat but it's loaded with stuff.

I translated 'open deck" to mean "lets save on our fuel costs".

In the quest to get to the best sites in good conditions we probably use more fuel than a set itinerary because we backtrack. (I hope the owners aren't reading this !! But if you do… hey guys we do try to save your fuel but not at the expense of the best diving.)

"A few friends and I repeatedly requested the lead dive master and cruise director for more sites like these but to noavail."

In the email with the invoice (3 divers) for the trip Tom received this paragraph: "I oversee everything on the trip and am the ultimate boss of it all. If, during the trip you have any problem with the ship, the crew, other passengers, the diving… whatever, please come to me directly. You can tell the crew if something needs repair, but also tell me so that I can follow up. Sometimes they do a repair and it doesn't "take", so I need to know if whatever problem you have is still not corrected. Then I can deal with it. For me, this is not a holiday. Although I do enjoy it and take some photos, my top priority is to be sure that divers in my group have a great trip."

During the ship briefing I again advised the group to come to me with any requests or problems so we could sort it out.

Tom and friends never made any requests to me about the diving. Not before or during the trip. I asked the cruise director if Tom requested anything from him. He didn't.

"It isn't about big fish. We saw just a handful of sharks, a few mantas, napoleon wrasse, jacks, and few other pelagics."

We saw fewer fish than usual on this trip, much less that in April/May. This was at least partially due to the poor visibility. I could often see large schools of fish faintly in the distance. Since Tom & friends skipped about ½ the dives, they may have missed the dives where we did see more sharks, larger and more fish. But for sure we dived a number of sites where you would never expect to see those sorts of things.

MY COMMENTS ON SMY ONDINA

I've visited many other ships I could charter. So far, I prefer SMY Ondina.

The crew is (as noted) excellent and stable. They are intelligent, skilled people. Many other ships go out with inexperienced crew that change every few months, new crew who don't know the area, poor and/or not enough dive guides (the reason I always check and add experienced guides). The other ships either aren't flexible, safe or are damaging the reefs. (Please don't misinterpret, I'm not bashing all other liveaboards… some ships are safe, not damaging reef, just aren't flexible enough to suit me. Others are for sure damaging reefs and I would NEVER charter one of them… and wish I could name them here). I've rejected all in Tom's list of recommended alternatives. Not that they aren't good ships, just not suitable to me for the small group, high guide/diver ratio, flexible, photography trips I want to run.

Ondina's owners and I work together to make the ship perform well for my (and their own) trips. Anyone who has been out with me knows that I always make a list of things that need improved, repaired or added to help make the next guests more comfortable or safe. The owners take my lists to heart and nearly all my suggestions are implemented before my return in about 6 months. The exception being our April 2008 trip - the one scorpio_fish was on. When I arrived I was appalled at the condition of the ship. I didn't see any reason to upset the guests, but at the end of that trip, I let the owners know that it was totally unacceptable and would be the end of my charters with them if it wasn't in shape before my May trip (4 days to prepare). I would cancel the other charters I had booked with them. It was mostly corrected. An unsuitable assistant cruise director/divemaster (Daniel) was fired at the end of my trips after I talked to Ric about him. There were a few things that couldn't be done in 3 days in Sorong but were done in September at mid-season dry dock.

Ondina isn't top luxury… (depends a bit on how you define "luxury") but it has an inside dive deck and wetsuit room with hot showers so that we and our dive gear isn't sitting in the sun, rain and wind; it has large dedicated camera rinse tanks right behind the camera table; it has cabins with plenty of storage space, lots of hooks, outlets for charging, individually controlled AC, ensuite bath; the ship is very stable and cabins are below deck so less seasickness; there are 3 public areas for relaxing; dive deck, camera table, charging and rinse is all on one level so cameras don't have to be carried up and down stairs; the food is excellent (according to most.. to me it is better than most any resort or restaurant in Bali for Indonesian cuisine);it is nearly insect free (always a couple of big bugs fly in.. and occasionally a few ants).

Sure, heated water for showers in cabins would be OK. The water is heated by the engine, so the first day or so after filling at port its cool, but after that, its bathwater temp, not cold, just not scalding. I guess while linen and crystal would be nice, but then I'd need to dress for dinner and that's a hardship after a night dive! Gourmet food? I have to ask the waitresses to put me on a "no seconds" diet as it is... and I doubt it would taste as good as the special Indonesian food we are served.

SUMMARY

It was very unfortunate that Tom had a bad experience. For all of us. It was also obvious to us that these 3 divers were on the wrong trip after only 2-3 days. The crew kept asking me why they were there. I fielded many complaints about the diving skills of these divers as they often created sandstorms and ruined photos by finning up the bottom in sandy or shallow areas. I didn't specifically see Tom doing that, only the other two so I asked the dive guides to stop them and point it out when they saw it happening plus it was addressed in the dive briefings several times.

I'm not a travel agent that simply charters a ship, collects the money and off you go! I put years of effort into learning the dive sites, checking out the ship before ever sending anyone on it and working constantly with the ship's owners to improve the ship's facilities and crew to make it easy, safe and comfortable for the divers aboard to relax and enjoy their holiday. I have worked with SMY Ondina's owners for years. They always take my suggestions to heart, nearly always implementing them and occasionally even improving on them

On both Nov. 2009 trips the cruise director, 3 dive guides and special dive assistant/tender driver were freelance guides. They do not work for Ondina. They were there at my request with the permission and assistance of Ondina's owners. I've worked with them and the crew for 2-10 years. They know what I want for our guests so well that I seldom have to do anything except make a choice about the itinerary or time for a meal.

I don't want to minimize questions about my trips. I want to prevent unsuitable divers (those who will not be happy, who have medical problems, who are frightened of diving, etc.) from booking onto my trips!!!!! The trips are always full (fingers crossed with this economy). Unhappy divers are not fun to be around... plus they write awful things on forums! I'm always aboard and the last thing I want to do for 12 days is be stuck on a liveaboard with someone who is not happy, complains or is rude.

My trips aren't for everyone. I wish I could do a 100% perfect job of matching divers to my trips. I try, but once in a while I miss one (or 3). And I wish that visibility, fish and critters weren't so darned unpredictable so that everyone could see on an 11 day trip what I've seen in Raja Ampat over the past 10 years.

It is extremely disappointing and disenheartening to put so much effort into providing a special trip and then find a review like this online.

I hope readers who are interested in Raja Ampat or a dive/photographers' trip to Raja Ampat will review other data and not base their choices on the angry comments of a dissatisfied diver who didn't do his research.

DebF

Deb Fugitt

www.cityseahorse.com/rajaampat

TRIP RESEARCH - MORE DETAIL

Pre-trip Tom stated that he and his friends were experienced divers with more than 20 years experience. 2 photographers, 1 not. He didn't ask any questions about the trip or the diving, only joking (I thought) questions about whether we could find a coelacanth for him to photograph, if there is a Starbucks and free Wi-Fi in the Sorong hotel for our overnight there and serious questions about the air travel, and how much freedom he and his dive buddy would be given to dive. I reviewed all the communications I had with Tom... that's it.

I did try to get them to let me put the non-photographer on another dive tender with other non-photographers so I could assign a different guide who would do tours of the dive sites instead of critter spotting and going directly to the best photo ops. Tom's group preferred to be assigned together so I complied with their request.

I ask each diver to complete a form that includes their food requirements. In addition to asking about allergies and intolerances there is a box "Meal Preferences. List likes, dislikes, diets. For example, do you like spicy Indonesian food? Can't tolerate it? Love fish, Hate fish? Vegetarian? Etc.". Tom's request was "beer, cold, lots of it".

The form also asks for goals so I can flag divers who won't be compatible with the trip or other quests and ask further questions to be sure they are on the right sort of trip. It is also used to help me assign compatible divers with the guide I know will be best for them. (1 guide for 3 or 4 divers). The text on the form is "What are your goals for this trip? (Get certain kinds of photos? See a specific creature? Relax & enjoy the diving? Have an adventure? We'll use this info to make a basic plan and group divers with others having similar goals.)". Tom filled his form with only "4 dives a day".

Once aboard, Tom barely spoke to me. I rarely saw him as I was doing most all the dives with my group while he skipped about half the dives. (His opinion of Raja Ampat's diving is based on about 25 dives or so).

When I was on board Tom was nearly always in his cabin, except at mealtime and he always sat at the other table. I asked his cabin mate if Tom was sick or upset! The answer was no, Tom was just quiet and seemed fine. Tom didn't speak with me about the diving during the trip, nor did he speak to the cruise director (except for a comment on the last day). I checked again before writing this. Tom's friends were often in the lounge when I was there and we chatted a bit every day. They never asked for anything about the diving, however the kitchen was cooking special meals for them.

That is certainly a long and colorful reply Deb. You are fortunate you have a few former clients who already supported you in replying to Tom (since you've named him publicly, I suppose it'd be rude to call him twhi) and fielded his criticisms very well.

I do think the crux of the issue is that your client probably failed to research and voice his issues during the trip, while you didn't "quiz extra hard" enough to avoid issues like this one from occurring in the first place. From your reply, the breakdown in communication between the 2 of you was very evident, even from the beginning. I think it best that both parties concerned should just lap it up to bad luck and move on.

I think it best that both parties concerned should just lap it up to bad luck and move on.

Quite a lot of 20 year experienced divers/photographers who have access to my website and linked info understand perfectly the type of trip I run. I'm not hiding the details on the trips. If anything I'm pushing it on people who write me and book trips.

In the emails I write to people who enquire about trips I give the links in case they missed them somehow (like word of mouth referral) ... Links are even in the invoice and on my sig files. I feel as if I'm overdoing it as is.. so can't imagine quizzing people any further unless there is something I can turn up that indicates there is a problem. Which would be non-photographers, beginning divers, medical problems, posts like Tom has written to this forum, etc.

Would be glad to hear any suggestions on how to better qualify divers. Some people, like Tom and vazuw just don't use as many words as I do.

I would be quite happy to drop this.. I would be quite happy if it never started. I'd be quite happy not to deal with it at all. But Tom is joining forums (has not been a member) and posting this same thing to them. Sigh....

I'm getting telephone calls for trips because if this. And nice emails from people I don't even know who are advising me to reply to Tom on other forums so they don't only hear his side.

Thanks Y'All!

DebF

Deb, nothing is more challenging then dealing with people, especially people that dont just complain, but want to hurt you, as this person seems to want to do. As you know I am a physician in practice for near 23 years now. Ive had my share of tough situations, and people to deal with. If this is the only complaint you've had in all this time, your way ahead of most. All we can do is what we think is best, and believe in ourself. Im sure you had no intention to deceive anyone. There is no conspiracy .You've had years of full trips and happy divers. Keep up the great trips.

If it makes any difference Deb, your liveaboard is now on my radar for over seas trips in the next few years as somewhere I'd consider, primarily because you do cater specifically to photographers. I'm sure there's other people reading this thread that are in the same boat.

Deb, since you're asking for suggestions, I'll field a few:.

1. When someone writes just " lots of beer" and "4 dives a day" to a 'serious' screening questionnaire, one would think a mild flag of followup would be in order if one were into "quizzing non-photogs extra hard." Of course when you have so many trips to organize, it's understandable that something like that would slip by. Definitely the onus of research is on the client, but since you say you screen your client list to ensure cohesiveness, perhaps such details are worth looking into the future?

2. If there was someone skipping 1/2 the dives, it's not usually a big problem but there could be health or other issues they did not mention etc. If a group of 4 people were skipping 1/2 the dives, it could possibly be a sign of something being amiss. Perhaps this entire episode could possibly have been avoided if you'd spoken to Tom directly during the trip (or even after) instead asking his friends. Of course running the boat and dealing with the other guests is hard as it is.

3. With so many responses from former clients (even non clients responded negatively to the review) negating Tom's obviously biased view, was it necessary to even respond directly (especially since you don't usually do so?) to Tom? Your very long reply (which I admittedly skip read because of the length and just jumped to the colored bits, thanks for that) publicly airs the possibly private communications between you and a client could possibly cause a stain of unprofessional behavior. I would think letting your reputation and clients do your talking for you would be the best response, but I obviously don't think like you do.

Anyhow, I'm happy for you that you are getting more business calls because of this incident. Bad publicity is better than no publicity as they say. Hopefully Tom (twhi) realizes that research is important before any trip.

Since you're asking for suggestions, I'll field a few:.

 

1. When someone writes just " lots of beer" and "4 dives a day" to a 'serious' screening questionnaire, one would think a mild flag of followup would be in order if one were into "quizzing non-photogs extra hard."...

2. If there was someone skipping 1/2 the dives, it's not usually a big problem but there could be health or other issues they did not mention etc. If a group of 4 people were skipping 1/2 the dives...

3. was it necessary to even respond directly (especially since you don't usually do so?) to Tom?

1. That't the problem with me not giving ALL the correspondence. Tom was joking a lot in emails.. so I took those form comments as a joking way to say "nothing specific, I'm happy with anything". BTW.. he is a photographer. Presented himself as a photographer. I was surprised he had the camera he did, but I've seen divers with inexpensive cameras that take EXCELLENT photos and are really into it.

2. Tom and 2 friends were not skipping the same dives. Some sometimes skipped the 7am dives to sleep in and they all skipped anything after their afternoon Margarita time. Also skipped others, but randomly. Made it difficult to arrange diving for the others as we never knew who would show up for a dive. And then there is open deck.. and its almost impossible for me to keep track of who is diving since I'm in the water myself.

I'm not a warm fuzzy person.. so that's why I hired a cruise director who is. He was talking to Tom.. even guiding him sometimes, yet he also got no requests.

3. Yes, it is necessary to respond to Tom's post. No one else knows what happened in full and I need to be sure anyone reading his post understands the facts. I named him so that any other group organizers can find this if they research their potential guests. I'm sure most dive ops and travel agents won't avoid him, they'll just go for the $. But there are specialy tour organizers who DO care about getting compatible people on their trips. The posts here should benefit them as well as divers who are planning trips.

I know you are trying to moderate, but for every item you come up with, I probably have a logical explanation that requires even more facts to detail it. I was shocked by Tom's post. It was totally unexpected and full of false information.

DebF

3. Yes, it is necessary to respond to Tom's post. No one else knows what happened in full and I need to be sure anyone reading his post understands the facts. I named him so that any other group organizers can find this if they research their potential guests. I'm sure most dive ops and travel agents won't avoid him, they'll just go for the $. But there are specialy tour organizers who DO care about getting compatible people on their trips. The posts here should benefit them as well as divers who are planning trips.

Deb, I hope I am reading this wrongly. Are you suggesting that other trip organizers should avoid Tom because of your experience with him? If so, then I have to say it is highly unprofessional of you to do so. As you say, his name could be found with due diligence and his post is very evidently spiteful enough that any trip organizer would do more research. There is no need to imply that he be put on some sort of avoidance/black list because he wrote a bad review of your operation. WP is here for people to write reviews and also allow the operators to rebut but not for them to ostracize a former client in the entire industry for a disagreement. That is simply uncouth.

Every post in this thread had already easily negated any negative comments Tom made. I doubt any other operator would publicly denounce someone like you have. If his review was spiteful, then your suggestion is also vindictive. The facts should speak for themselves in your rebuttal. As proven by the responses here, readers are not sheep-like and I appreciate that you want to protect your business.

I detest writing admonishments publicly and normally deal with this privately but your choice of words and insinuations prompt me to protect Wetpixel's reputation, since this is actually the 2nd time you have done this. I can appreciate an 'industry' blacklist shared amongst operators discreetly, but Wetpixel is here for photographers and industry folk alike. I do hope you refrain from doing this again. If I have read your post out of context, then I apologize sincerely. But I don't think I have.

Deb, I hope I am reading this wrongly. Are you suggesting that other trip organizers should avoid Tom because of your experience with him?

No where did I say he should be blacklisted from all trips. I said and meant "I named him so that any other group organizers can find this if they research their potential guests." Simply that.. a link connecting the review to a real name.

What others glean from this thread is their business.

I would never have connected twhi as Tom Witt without identifying info anywhere when I was doing research, so "The posts here THAT IDENTIFY TWHI should benefit them (trip organizers)". Think about it.. if one is looking for a real name, how would you ever find this thread and connect it to someone who is about to book on a trip? How would you know to search for twhi?

twhi joined several forums since the trip and has provided no name or identifying info in any of the profiles or in posts he made. I was only able to identify him because he uses his initials and state code as his ID. If he hadn't done so and called himself "squirrelfish" or something I would still be wondering which guest wrote the review!

I did not say "his name could be found with due diligence". I just tried, and failed, to turn up his name anywhere except in what I've written.

Possibly he could be happy on a Galapagos, Cocos, or other high voltage dive trip assuming they don't do something he doesn't like.

By putting a name to the twhi, others will have a chance to quiz him throughly since he isn't doing his research or providing much info on his expectations. Any trip organizer taking him on may want to go to extremes to insure the trip they offer fits what he wants.

If I can mess with a quote from Tom's review... "This is a review I wish I'd read before I" confirmed a booking from him on my trip.

DebF

Hi Deb, what a mess this has become. I can totally see where you're coming from. You've created a successful business with a specific formula, and on comes someone that doesnt like you, your business or your formula. Not just that, they plaster it all over forums. Welcome to the internet.

It is somewhat of an unwritten rule of thumb that defending yourself from these negative attacks is not a good idea. You are on the defense, even though there is no reason to be. Your trips are successful for a reason, and this guy is not going to change that. If anything he might deter like minded people to not join your -always booked full way in advance trips- anyways, leaving more spots for people that enjoy your formula. It is much better to let your existing customers, who are generally viewed as impartial, to do your defending for you, which they did. I think by the time you got involved, their reactions had already neutralized his comments.

The dynamics of the thread changed after you joined. It went from a guy that just vented about something he didnt like, to a public dispute between a customer and a trip organizer. I think nothing you said came as a surprise to people that would normally consider joining your trips. Of course you stay in the same spot for a few dives, of course there can be problems with the boat (although, being on the receiving end of some of those problems myself, I can say it significantly lessened my enjoyment of the trip), and I seriously doubt anyone was deterred from going to Raja Ampat based on his post. Just let it go. You can't win this, because it's not about winning.

You are on the defense, even though there is no reason to be. Your trips are successful for a reason, and this guy is not going to change that. If anything he might deter like minded people to not join your -always booked full way in advance trips-

There is a reason to post the reply. I am receiving emails and private messages from people telling me that if they had not seen my replies they would never have joined one of my trips. That reconfirms my decision.

If I have to cancel a trip because someone like this writes a negative review, or I book someone on a trip that many people dislike so much they won't be stuck on a trip with them and cancel, who is it going to impact? Only me? This isn't my primary business, I lose money on it due to the time involved and the expense of taking only 12 divers and paying extra crew. It won't impact me that much. But, what about all the divers who've bought their air tickets and arranged their holidays for one of these trips? What about the owners and crew of the ship who may not be able to resell those dates? What about the extra crew I hire that depend on my trips for their income to support their families? That's what is going through my mind!

DebF

Every business or profession is the same. We all have policies, protocols and procedures that we follow in order to run our businesses, and to 'control' and grow them the way we choose. Unfortunately we all have customers or clients who wish to make us do things their way, and no matter how many times we repeat ourselves or put our policies and procedures in writing, they will resist, complain, bad mouth us etc. Also no matter how hard we try to 'weed' them out, occasionally one will slip through.

I believe the most important thing for any professional though is not to let it get personal. Repeat your policies and procedures when someone complains, repeat them again when they complain again. Repeat them again on websites like this, but never let it get personal. Then just walk away.

I never been on a trip whit Deb, but i have been twice on Ondina and i am going back in May 2009 for a third time!

I love the boat and the crew, the rooms are not 5 star but more then enough for a diving cruise in my opinion!

But the thing i do not understand is the food complain!!!

Man i love the food on the Ondina, for me this is the best food ever on a live aboard, been on enough Peter Hughes, Agressor, Maledives, Red Sea live aboards to compare!

Maybe some Americans only like steaks? and that you will not find in on a Live Aboard in Indonesie, and sure not in Raja Ampat where there is almost nothing!

And saying that they spend a whole day on the same spot to save fuell i can not believe this, my last trip on the Ondina (july this year Komodo) the boat was only 1/2 full and nothing was to far or to much!

complaining on the diving and vis in Raja Ampat says enough for me!

I really do not like it if you try to tell bad things after the trip but on the trip you say nothing?

Pls do never go on a Live Aboard with me!

There is a reason to post the reply. I am receiving emails and private messages from people telling me that if they had not seen my replies they would never have joined one of my trips. That reconfirms my decision.

 

If I have to cancel a trip because someone like this writes a negative review, or I book someone on a trip that many people dislike so much they won't be stuck on a trip with them and cancel, who is it going to impact? Only me? This isn't my primary business, I lose money on it due to the time involved and the expense of taking only 12 divers and paying extra crew. It won't impact me that much. But, what about all the divers who've bought their air tickets and arranged their holidays for one of these trips? What about the owners and crew of the ship who may not be able to resell those dates? What about the extra crew I hire that depend on my trips for their income to support their families? That's what is going through my mind!

Now come on Dont tell us your whole business is in jeopardy because one guy writes a bad review. I would find that more problematic than the actual review if it were me. It sounds like you have a solid thing going that can take a punch. Especially with so many people standing up for you. It's not like we're seeing a flood of bad reviews. It's just one guy venting. It sounds like you run your trips pretty much like any other photography trip out there. Honestly, dont worry about it.

It's not like we're seeing a flood of bad reviews. It's just one guy venting.

Sometimes on the internet, that's all it takes. We are reformulating all of our products to remove certain preservatives because of one awful study that indicated a possible correlation between the ingredients and breast cancer tumors, which has since been debunked. There are 20,000+ links to this lame study. Do I dare say how much it costs to reformulate and test every product in order to replace effective, low-cost preservatives with higher doses of more expensive, more sensitizing, possibly carcinogenic alternatives? All because of one study.

If every participant scores the live-aboard trip, then one bad review doesn't get overweighted. But when there are so few reviews, one bad review can be a killer. It's like reading reviews on Trip Adviser. There's always someone who got a crappy room, but the difference is if one or 99 other people got a good room.

complaining on the diving and vis in Raja Ampat says enough for me!

Mr. Brumpy, you are correct. That statement alone should be enough, but not everyone has been there.

Sometimes on the internet, that's all it takes. We are reformulating all of our products to remove certain preservatives because of one awful study that indicated a possible correlation between the ingredients and breast cancer tumors, which has since been debunked. There are 20,000+ links to this lame study. Do I dare say how much it costs to reformulate and test every product in order to replace effective, low-cost preservatives with higher doses of more expensive, more sensitizing, possibly carcinogenic alternatives? All because of one study.

Thats hardly the same is it. This isnt a study, this is one guy saying 'your product sucks!', after which several other people say 'huh? you're nuts, it doesnt suck at all'. It's not even a review.

Surely your products will continue to exist if someone posts on a forum that it tastes funny (after which 10 people reply that they love the taste). I just think Deb is taking it way too seriously, and thus giving the complaint more weight than it deserves.

Cor

I agree w/ Cor - as an impartial observer I'd say that you have both said your piece, the situation is now in a "neutral" state - so drop it.

That's just my opinion of course.

Cheers

Jamse

Deb,

Reasonable (and complete) response, but a few things to consider:

1. The Ondina is not known for good food (and yes, I've been on the boat). For you to try to suggest it is (compared to food served on other boats like the Seven Seas) makes it seem like you're stretchning this a little too far...

2. You have a reputation for not being the most approachable person on the planet. If you don't realize this, then you might want to consider a "360" type review of folks w/have either worked with you or that you've worked for (I've heard this 2nd hand from some of your clients).

3. Optics are everything - Tom didn't enjoy the trip - he posted his views - your response comes across as a wee bit defensive...

No doubt he should have taken more seriously the (quite complete) information you publish (and distribute) before your trips. But as the self-proclaimed cruise director it should have been your responsibility to reach out to him (directly) and see how he was doing.

One gets the impression that what you are really trying to do is run a (fairly) small number of semi-private trips for people you want to travel with (which is fine). Advertise your trips as that and keep screening people carefully... you'll get the occasional rough fit, but people will self-select into your kind of trips if they want.