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The Galley: General Chat / Archived topic

Manufacturer/Dealers: Marketing or just their opinion?

Started by Drew ·

  • 43Posts
  • 43Replies

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Manufacturer/Dealers: Marketing or just their opinion?

43 posts
  1. I think the issue becomes a bit more messy is when manufacturers and their dealers add garnishing to their facts. The forums are supposed to be about discussions among like minded people and information for those seeking it, and not just another outlet for promoting products. It is why the WP staff ask the those involved to stick to the facts and not be uber-stentorian about how well it works. As Jean says, leave that to the users who have bought the product and/or independent reviewers. While I agree with Alex that generally, people read through the marketing BS, sometimes it is taken as a proper review by someone inexperienced and/or not reading everything fully etc.

    That said, having so many manufacturer reps on WP is an excellent thing as they can provide insight into their products. Some of the biggest names in UW imagery participate here to field questions about their products, and they've always been factual and helpful. That can only benefit members who are their customers and their sales.

  2. It's not so bad here. At least nobody attacks you for spending a few bob on kit - not like some British diving forums!

  3. It also works both ways. I will not comment on some equipment despite my misgivings on some of it (based on my or friend's experience) because as a supplier of one product I feel that it would be unacceptable to do so - even if the information is potentially important and something that people should be aware of. As has been said before, keeping things factual is a good way to be and wetpixel is an excellent way to disseminate information about a product that I might be involved with, provided that is that its useful information or answering a query, and not simply promotional.

  4. For factual information such as "it won't work with that dome port because..." and "we will be shipping the first batch of the XXX housing on Monday" I listen to guys like Jean and Chris. For reviews of gear I listen to guys like Berkely - a) because he has the experience to know what he is talking about and has seen plenty of housings, and b) he doesn't have to talk up a particular housing because he will have several different brands of housing for sale to fit any particular camera model.

  5. I agree with Alex and others, disclosure is the key.

     

    I too, am a dealer for many of these lines. I bought with my own $$ a Nauticam D300 rig, was provided with a prototype by Ryan as the d300s wasn't finished, and took it to Mexico for 8 days of hard shooting offshore. Did I have problems - yes, did I get some great shots - yes. All was disclosed in my very brief user review on the another Nikon/Nauticam thread - and it was one of the first posted about blue water shooting with the rig.

     

    I think if you wait for users/unbiased sources to post reviews they aren't going to happen. When new lines and rigs come out the dealers are the only real ones to have actual knowledge of them. The 10Bar GF-1 and LX3 threads are a case in point. Many users were asking for a US dealer. I went to DEMA, looked over the gear, asked the questions the users were asking as well as my own. After relaying the information we did some initial buys and now I've continued them. Everyone is very happy to have the info posted here - and the problems and questions are relayed to the manufacturers for improvement.

     

    I think this is exactly what the forum is all about. I strongly feel that if full disclosure is made, then we are all adult enough to filter what we want.

     

    Jack

    Edited by JackConnick
  6. I agree with full disclosure, but that doesn't mean that manufacturers and dealers aren't held to a higher standard than are regular members here. I understand that everyone has their own opinion about equipment -- and indeed, regarding just about everything -- but disclosing facts and fishing for commercial transactions are two very different things.

     

    I LOVE that there are representatives from various companies here, and hope this continues on Wetpixel. But if you sell equipment and have ever written something like, "PM me for more info," you are in violation of what I consider to be acceptable conduct. I consider that to be overt commercialism; after all, you could just have easily PM'ed that user instead of going public.

     

    I'd say that the line for manufacturers and dealers, when writing about any product they might sell or represent, is the use of subjective adjectives. So while you may state facts, you may not then embellish your statement with an adjective that is not based on fact or published data.

     

    There is a blurry area, and that space includes posts about what you have in stock, and when things are shipping. I'd say that it is acceptable for a manufacturer to chime in to say that a product has rolled off of the production line and to check with dealers for inventory, but it isn't right for a dealer to say that they have something in stock. And this sort of thing is only OK when there is an existing discussion about it -- when users really want the information.

     

    Of course, you can always PM people who are interested in product. This is fine, as long as you don't abuse PM and turn yourself into a spammer.

     

    Another factor we take into consideration is the level of historical participation at Wetpixel. If someone who is part of our community -- someone who has been helpful to countless underwater photographers out there via Wetpixel forums -- slips up and writes something on edge of being too commercial, we'll often let it go. But if someone is an uninvolved member and comes here only to sell a brand, we're going to come down hard on them immediately.

     

    I agree that most of our readers are intelligent and can sift through overtly commercial posts and give them their worth, but I don't want Wetpixel to turn into a place where vendors can drag down the conversation by trying to sell things.

     

    Also, *we* at Wetpixel get to be commercial. Wetpixel gets to talk about the expeditions that we run and the products we sell (t-shirts, magazines, etc.). And for the most part, moderators and administrators get to have their own opinions unless they are clearly tied by employment to a particular manufacturer or dealer. This may be unfair, but since this forum belongs to Wetpixel, that's part of the deal. Of course, moderators have to be careful because there may be repercussions to their opinions, but that is for me to deal with (I've gotten in trouble when mods have badmouthed products or operators -- and, indeed, when I have been critical myself).

     

    I'm glad this is all coming out now, in discussion form. We have had to approach specific people for years to ask them not to be overtly commercial. Most see our point and are happy knowing that we are here trying to moderate the level of industry representation allowable, but some folks just outright disagree with us... and that is unfortunate.

    Edited by echeng
  7. Disclosure is the key.

     

    I have nothing to sell but the magazines I work for. My well-constructed and edited opinions and discoveries (unlike the stream of consciousness found on a forum) can be found in for example the UK's Diver Magazine. It's a bit expensive for those who want it sent by airmail but you can subscribe by going to http://www.divernet.com/Subscribe/

     

    How's that, Eric?

     

     

    Oh, I forgot to say, it's bloody good and well worth the money!

    Edited by John Bantin
  8. John -

     

    Yes, but no one asked for information about your product, so I'd say that you crossed the line in your example. Also, you should probably have your affiliation in your .sig. ;)

    Edited by echeng
  9. John -

     

    Yes, but no one asked for information about your product, so I'd say that you crossed the line in your example. Also, you should probably have your affiliation in your .sig. ;)

     

     

    I've updated my signature. Was that quick enough for you?

    Edited by John Bantin
  10. Scurrilous hack and intrepid reviewer of all things diving for UK's DIVER Mag. Sue me - I love it!

    Sounds like a reasonable description.

  11. Interesting thread. Some thoughts. (I am no longer a member of the industry. I just dive.) I've participated in Wetpixel since the very early days.

     

    1. Participation in the forums by members of industry, whether dealers or brands is a wonderful thing. Facts and information fly across the tubes of the interweb faster on these forums than individual inquiries to dealers and manufacturers.

     

    2. Reviews by dealers, manufacturers or those closely related to the manufacturer have ranged from pretty objective to downright advertorials. Even with full disclosure it is hard to tell the difference, especially for a housing newbie.

     

    3. The Meme, "I sell five brands so I am objective" really doesn't hold water. It means there are five brands that you will say don't suck.

     

    4. If you want consumers/users to post reviews or experiences, whether you consider them worthy or not, you cannot be defensive about such postings. If I say my Ikelite iTTL converter has failed on every trip (3), don't jump on a reply saying "I've been been using and selling blah, blah gear for 20 years and Mathew Brady has using it since the Civil War so it must good, you ignorant twerp and BTW taking the lens off the body to change a battery or card is a feature, not a flaw.

     

    I also think that casual users and readers may hesitate to post for fear/consideration of offending well respected or liked industry representatives.

     

    5. I think that if industry member reviews were unblemished they would have to include far more negative comments. The pros are noted, the cons generally ignored. It is through user postings that we find out some of the realities. Industry people don't say: 1) Don't waste money on the Gates HC9 white balance option, the camera won't white balance past 10 feet 2) The Subal GS180 viewfinder isn't near as good as other alternatives 3) ...nice housing, but the zoom gears look like they were made in an arts and craft class 4) Maybe a half composite, half aluminum housing isn't a good idea....on and on. People on the forums sometimes tell you. People on dive boats will definitely share. ;)

     

    6. Multiple posts using the term "amazing" without describing why you were amazed turns it into a marketing hype. Did it rinse itself off after you surfaced? Did it spit out a ham sandwich during the SI?

    Edited by scorpio_fish
  12. I've always valued the professionals' comments: I'm old and cynical enough to look for corroborating evidence, but the horse's mouth does have something going for it.

     

    Besides which, the most important development, a must-have for the older photographer has finally been announced...

     

    ;)we're packaging Alex Mustard and Mike Veitch hair products soon :D

     

    ... and I can't wait!

     

    Tim

     

    :D

  13. I love this sort of thread on here because I don't get exposed for my lack of picture-taking ability!

    ...and where can you get this housing that does the ham sandwiches? Sound like we gotta a USP.

  14. I think in reading "industry" reviews that you have to read between the lines a bit. I generally will rake a manufacturer over the coals in private, but will say something like "they're working on this issue" in public. And generally they are - and posting that they are spurs them on believe me. If the user wants to contact me privately, I can fill them in.

     

    Man Eric, lot of grey area. I do try to give information without adjectives, or at least keep it toned down. I also give some details, post photos and then link to my blog for more a more lengthy article. I think that keeps it clean over here.

     

    I am wondering what the difference is between "PM me if interested" and my PMing them directly is. I think the later is far more obtrusive. The former leaves it up to the poster to decide.

     

    Eric, what about a separate forum for industry type reviews, limited to industry members in good standing here. Rules would apply, but some freedom given - hows that for gray area? ;-)

     

    Matthew Brady dove? Hmmm, didn't know flash powder would go off underwater...

     

    Jack

  15. It's not always easy for people to realize who's who. I'm pretty involved with wetpixel and I sometimes don't know exactly who someone is working for. Let alone most of our readers, who really have no idea who everyone is. A lot of industry people have a great explanation in their signature, so that helps.

     

    I just added a new small feature to wetpixel to improve it a bit more. Industry people can now specify their affiliation in their control panel. It will be shown after the 'Industry' designator, so keep it short else it'll probably carry over to the next line and look weird. I may modify things slightly as more people edit that field and I get more of a feel of what space people need. The idea is to just keep it short, one or two words to say which company you represent. Also, if you don't yet have a signature, it would be great if industry people put some information about their company and/or their position in their signature. Some good examples in this thread.

  16. Regarding .sigs, we have always had a policy that they should be 4 lines or less, with no images. If SIGs are too long or contain large images, there is just too much clutter on forum pages!

  17. I very much appreciate the moderators attempts to keep a balance on this issue, it is a moving target with no perfect answer, but I think its worth the effort. I want to read from industry but I also want to avoid being oversold, spammed or seeing flamewars if a product dares to be criticised.

     

    Being this transparent about the whole issue is quite admirable in my view and part of why I have confidence in the balance generally being in the ballpark, noone can win them all in this kind of area.

     

    Otara

  18. The point about any forum is that it is able to represent information and opinions from a wide number of viewpoints and as such should be open to all. Everyone comes with different perspectives; be they manufacturers, agents, outlets, press, Pros or simple punters.

     

    I prefer that it is left to the reader to absorb the information, consider the views and form his/her own opinion, feeling free to add something constructive or challenging if appropriate. Those attempting commercial gain are pretty quickly spotted.

     

    Any forum attempting a policy of controlling this is, IMO, just adding another layer of "skew" which needs to be untangled.

     

    2c

    Edited by Balrog
  19. Balrog, what you've said is how it is for the longest time. We are not saying manufacturers cannot post their opinions of their wares, but they just can't hawk it at every turn. I joined wetpixel because it was about the factual information first and not a sales pitch or commercialism I see on other sites. I think Eric has done a great job at creating an atmosphere for relaxed knowledge exchange without overt commercialism interfering too much. He doesn't allow sponsors to dictate what is being said when there are negative opinions about their products, especially in the reviews by the staff. I think WP is the first review of UW housings where we have the manufacturer comments in the reviews itself. We also post reviews by other people without vetting because we don't endorse or deny their viewpoints. I think that's a lot of viewpoints without any "skew."

    The idea of the forums becoming cluttered with ads and infomercials doesn't really create the environment people find conducive to sharing information. Likewise, if reviews have no negatives and people buy the products based on the all positive reviews, and then discovers the limitations NOT mentioned by the "review", then it defeats the purpose of having the community that is independent.

    Edited by Drew
  20. Hi Drew

     

    Yes, don't get me wrong, I wasn't being critical. I find the balance and etiquette on here very good.

     

    Whilst I regrettably have no interest in the Nauticam / 7D, I enjoyed reading the thread and personally found the manufacturer's replies interesting.

    You are right in differentiating between infomercial posts originated by manufacturers, although even then they open themselves to public critique in what is probably the most knowledgeable place in the sector.

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