7D Baseline Video choices

I'm planning on jumping in the pool tomorrow to do some video tests with the Canon 7D. As I'm a complete newb at this I'm going to start at the beginning. I'd appreciate your thoughts on things I should be checking out. I have planned to shoot at various frame rates so I can understand the difference between 24 and 30 in terms of the look of the video. Might even try to shoot some 60 and play with slowing it down just to learn how.

I'm also interested in choosing a shutter speed and testing around that. I have read that it's a good idea to shoot at a multiple of the frame rate and many talk about that as a given but I don't understand the actual visual difference if the light and subject don't really allow that. I guess I trying to understand what your trading off if you don't shoot at the prefered shutter speed.

How do presets affect video recording or do they? Really basic question but I'm so used to shooting RAW I haven't thought about it.

I'm also interested in discovering the best way to lock focus with the Nauticam housing I have a couple of different options I'm planning to experiment with.

My plan is to start off with the Tokina 10-17 and shoot the Golden Retriever swimming back and forth. (She'll chase balls for hours)

First thing I'm going to do is see if I can get a neutral platform in bouyancy and pitch angle.

Does anybody have any thoughts on other key pieces of the puzzle or advise to share?

Cheers,

Steve

I would love to hear how it goes today. I have the exact same equipment and want to shoot some video when I am in Bonaire in a couple of weeks.

The only tips I have heard of is that you may want to invest in an external monitor. I think with the 7d and Nauticam housing that can be problematic because the mini HDMI plugs don't fit in the housing but I think Ryan Canon is working on a solution.

Have fun in the pool!!!

Hey Steve,

I'd be interested in seeing your results....try comparing auto to your manual settings if you have time.

A video expert and myself shot some video with my 5D MK II and he was really impressed with the auto setting compared to our attempts at manual.

Cheers!

Mike

Hey Slash,

I'll see if I can help you out. I'm sure an external monitor would be a nice addition but my budget is already over cooked. I'm finding that the big LCD works OK for the W/A stuff and I'm fine with it for now.

Mike I'm not exactly sure what you mean by auto. I've played with the video in the Auto everything "P" mode and when the scene changes exposure you can really see the aperture and or shutter speed jumping around trying to keep up. I think I prefer to control the aperture and shutter manually. I tried using manual control and setting the ISO to Auto and liked the smooth transition you get. I can see where that would be very useful if a cloud comes over or you swim under an overhang.

I experimented with the "Snorkeling with Dolphins" configuration first. Big S&S Fisheye dome on the Nauticam housing with the Tokina 10-17mm, no strobes. This is just about worst case for the housing wanting to pitch nose up. I first tried removing the left handle and attaching the ULCS ball mount from the top hard point of the housing in the handle hole. I used two 8 in arms (one on top, one in the handle hole) to come back to a 3in arm between them as a handle. I was trying to get some support and balance out the rig thinking I could push it ahead of me. Didn't work. I didn't have enough control in roll (left and right). I tried a few other setups until I finally locked in on a brace(ULCS 8" arm) coming off the right side top housing ball mount. If you put a small 5in arm at the end it works like a nice counter brace to the pitching moment arm of the dome. This lets you keep both handles on the housing and worked pretty well. The Nauticam has so many options for attach points I can see carrying balls to attach in all the threaded holes that would allow you to rig up pretty much any configuration you can think of. With 4 attach points on top, the two handles as an option and 3 attach points on the bottom, the options are endless. The strobes acting as outriggers will be a help too. Here's a shot of the setup I ended up with.

With the housing under control I experimented with baseline control setting and started to learn how the AF reacts underwater. After reading again all the threads where the Wetpixel video pros weighed in I ended up using 1920 x 1080 @30fps (29.97) as a baseline. It was another bright day in the desert with the ambient exposure of 1/500 @ f/8, iso 200. In the pool I was seeing 1/160 @f/13, iso 160. I set the camera in Manual and the iso in auto. I still don't understand if I should be trying to use a multiple of the frame rate for the shutter speed so I'll leave that for next time. As noted above AV didn't work well and I want to be able to control the depth of field so I stuck with manual mode. We had a great time and even a complete newb like me was able to get reasonable stuff. I had the test frame in the pool to play with focus but I really didn't need it. You can tell pretty easily when focus is out. Here is the setup area with my actress doing her thing.

Other learning's from today;

AF works great but much slower than in still mode. You can still focus on the dome if you're not careful especially on over unders. I have some great video of water droplets in perfect focus. Easiest way was to focus on my foot and then let the Tokina take care of focus with the D of F. I 'm going to experiment next with some nighttime macro video and I'm guessing the AF will be a bigger issue.

Sound is kind of a pain, the AF motor really rings inside the housing. I don't have an external mic and I want to be able to add the ambient bubble sound on occasion to the clip so something else to add to the list. I think most of the time I'll just turn the sound recording off. When learning though I can see where it would be helpful so you can understand what's happening as you review the video after the dive. Easy to hear the focus hunting.

The Nauticam housing just plain rocks for video. I was expecting that I would need daysor weeks to retrain my trigger finger to shoot video after 30+ years of shooting stills. Just didn't happen, after a couple of times of looking for the right button and finding it right under my thumb my addled but enthusiastic brain figured it out. I somewhat shockingly realized after about 5 minutes I was locked in.

Still need to research how the metering timer affects things.

Want to get a better understanding of the focus modes available in the 7D and how they affect video performance.

If anybody can give me a hint as to the shutter speed question I'd really appreciate it.

One other thing I learned today, this video stuff is a blast. Now I completely understand why it just doesn't always happen on the first take. I'm amazed you guys can get it in ten.

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Steve,

Good to hear you're enjoying your new toy! I've just been using the 7D and Nauticam with 10-17 for a week on a video shoot and have also been loving the combo. I'll try to post a few samples when I get home and get time for a spot of editing.

My settings have been as follows: 1080p at 30 fps (to be slowed down to 25fps in post for the project). The picture styles do affect video-I was using the landscape preset, which has a more saturated, contrasty look, but generally I would recommend using a more toned down look like standard or neutral and bumping it up in post. I was shooting on M mode, with shutter speed at 1/60th and aperture around f8 in the middle of the day, ISO at 160, I tended to vary the ISO to 320 or 640 if light was lower, to maintain a decent DOF. I used a magic filter. For focus I prefocused on my fin or the subject in Quick AF mode. I guess whether you chose to open up the aperture depends a bit on how much you expect the subject to move. I was using the Zen 100mm dome so didn't want to open up too much, to keep the corners sharp.

I did find I had a few misfocussed shots where I had prefocused on my fin, then started filming a subject much closer.

Overall, I was really pleased with the results, and the 10-17 is just great for video. I did sometimes struggle to keep the image steady enough, especially with very close subjects. I have been experimenting with a home-made underwater shoulder brace, which is promising but the design needs a few minor modifications! I think a small tripod might be useful in some situations and would probably be essential for macro.

Looking forward to hearing more updates on your findings!

Fergus

Steve,

Nice to read you post. I've been having similar experiences with the 7D/Aquatica. I've also mostly been shooting with the Tokina 10-17, with almost of it being wreck subjects. In all I've done about 5 wreck dives to date so early days.

I've had stability issues also which I think have resulted from a) my lack of video experience and b) the trim of the house.

Key issues I've hit thus far have been:

- 8" dome wanting to float rig up. I've switched to a 6" dome which was much better for this. Was also considering a tacking some weight onto the dome shade but haven't got there yet.

- Left/Right Roll is difficult to control. I like your idea of the stability arm. I've been considering making a base plate type of thing with stabilizing wings. These wings might have weights on the end and might fold/slide back into the base for ease of transport. Alternatively these wing might come off the tops of the grips or balls even, but I've been using the balls to mount arms for my light/s.

I did a deep dive with the camera housing and 6" dome + dive rite video light. I found the complete rig to be quite heavy. Since you have to hold the rig quite hight to make use of the LCD, the added weight doesn't do you any favours. Next time I do video and no strobes I'm going to leave the arms on with Stix floats. My hope is that positive buoyancy at the top of the housing will male it more stable.

Re: Shutter speed, I can't help you with your question but would like to understand that more myself. I've been shooting video in manual mode, with shutter of 1/30th and 25fps (because I'm in PAL land, 29.997fps is said to be crisper). I don't consider it ideal but it has been a necessary evil because I'm not getting enough light to use anything higher.

Also to my knowledge the Canon "Picture Styles" are applied in video mode. I've setup a user defined picture style (based on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wx5S0jHCk). Since picture styles don't get used when shooting RAW and rendering with Adobe Camera Raw, I just leave the camera set to that video picture style all the time as I only shoot RAW stills.

Try setting your shutter close to twice your frame rate. If you are shooting 24p, try 50 shutter, 30p, try 60 shutter. This will give you more of a "film" look and less video-like.

White balance settings, I'd try cloudy or shade. That should create more of a red shift which should work well underwater.

To help with the housing trim floating port up, try some fishing weights like these.

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s...__SearchResults

You can use some string or line through the loops at the end of the weight, then secure it around your port where it connects to the housing.

I shoot video with a camcorder underwater, but have a 7d for topside video. I am real anxious to see some more underwater video from the 5d, 7d and T2i.

Thanks guys, really appreciate the info. Damien it's interesting that the guy in your referenced video says to turn the Auto ISO off and to turn the Highlight priority on. Not sure, but it would seem to me that there would be occasions where that might not be the best solution. Appreciate the link though, some good info there. His Picture style suggestion lines up with what I've been thinking. I've found another blog that focuses on the 7D video shooters and seems to be well run. It's at Cinema5D.com If you do a search on Picture styles you'll find a majority of folks suggest recording in Neutral style and modifying in post. There are also the folks who suggest like your ref to turn the contrast and sharpness way down and lower the saturation with Philip Bloom in this camp. The other school of thought for folks who don't want to spend time in post is to bump the saturation as in the landscape suggestion. Not hard to see why some new users can get confused. I guess the goal is to get experienced enough to be able to choose the right setup for the conditions you're shooting with.

I like the idea of trying the little dome Fergus. My Zen 100mm should be much more balanced. I'll give it a try this afternoon. I think that most of the time I'll be setup with the strobes on so the big YS 250's should act as nice stabilizers. I'll try that today too.

Thanks for the thoughts on shutter speed and WB Ron. The weights are an interesting idea. I've probably got some in the old tackle box. Have to bring a few along. I really enjoyed your last video from Roatan. When I look at it I see what you mean about the film "look". I'm curious about the video you posted with Bloom in NY. If you don't mind me asking, how was the camera setup that you were using as the light was changing so much?

On a completely different thought, I'm finding this video thing will get in your head. I woke up this morning thinking about all the different camera angles I could have used to shoot Sandy (the golden) and her ball. Tight shot of the ball in the air, slo mo of the ball hitting the water, 10 different camera angles of the dog swimming, tight shots, long shots, all kinds of ideas. How should it start, how should it end, what music could I use? Had to shake my head and remind myself it was just some simple test shots. Somehow now though it's all different. I feel like I've past some threshold in the way I think about imaging and storytelling and won't ever be able to go back. You guys should have warned me.

Having fun,

Steve

Hello Steve:

Cinema5d is a very good site for info on DSLR's for video. Tons of good stuff and people willing to help. However, it's all for topside and while much of it will apply for UW, accessing and changing the manual settings may be a challenge UW.

Highlight tone priority will give you more detail on the bright areas. Many people like it because it expands the dynamic range on the high end, but it can make the video more noisy. In general, most recommend adjusting everything manually. I like the neutral picture style with contrast dialed down. I keep sharpness and saturation as is. I like this look and I don't modify much in post, although everyone has their own preference. The standard style is a little too punchy for my taste and has less detail in the dark areas.

Funny you mention my Roatan video. That was shot with a camcorder. The theory behind a "film" look compared a "video" look is video looks more documentary, sports or news like. Video tends to be wide depth of field, everything in focus, super sharp with detailed motion. Film look is what you see watching a movie. Shallower DOF, motion is a little smeared or blurry compared to video.

The clip I shot of Phil Bloom was at 24p, 50 shutter, ISO at 160. I believe aperture was 1.8. The lighting in Time Square at night is always changing and that's part of the feel and mood of the place. If the camera was on auto, it would have gone crazy and ruined the shot.

Funny you mention my Roatan video. That was shot with a camcorder.

Thanks Ron,

I think the sequence that I locked in on was in the opening with the shot of the dock and the waves coming in. It looks slower than real time. Maybe shot at 30 and rendered at 25? or something like that? I just liked the feel of it. I've never even held a camcorder so I'm completely guessing.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,

Sounds like we're on a similar journey. I thought this video thing was just a nice to have, though in hindsight I've done more video with the 7D than stills. This has been primarily due to a wreck project I'm involved with, but facts are facts.

Like you I thought I'd dive with strobes on camera and do a bit of both some dives. In reality though, I think this is impractical. It's like macro and wide angle on the same dive, just gets the mind confused. Switching the camera setup mid dive between video and stills is also a burden (albeit minor one).

I must say though that I struggle to see this "film look" that people talk about between 24 and 30fps? In contrast though I've quickly come to understand why people say the DSLR's are not a camcorder, and that a cinematography approach is needed (ie. setup your shot and then shoot, as opposed to point and shoot).

Good luck on your trip, I look forward to seeing the results.

Everything on the Roatan video is regular speed, shot at 60i with 60 shutter. The water was very calm in the opening scene. I think the combination of the calm water, the camera angling, lighting, exposure and the speed of the transition from black to scene is what fooled you.

Yeah, I don't know if 24p alone makes a film look.

Before getting my 7d, I was shooting 60i with 60 shutter on a camcorder for years. 7d at 24p, 50 shutter and aperture at 1.8 definitely does not look anything like the footage I shot on my camcorder.

7d at 24p, 50 shutter and aperture at 1.8 definitely does not look anything like the footage I shot on my camcorder.

Thanks I agree and understand. I've watched untold hours of Bloom's stuff and think I know what you mean. Still... I can't help what I like and that seguence is very cool. Kinda funny, it's just a dock but maybe it's the evreyday stuff that seperates the men from the boys.

Cheers,

Steve

I have big respect for Philip Bloom. His skills and he is a heck of a nice guy willing to use his personal time to meet ordinary people and answer their questions.

However, I am not a fan of his videos. Funny how sometimes their is some unexplainable thing about a video, scene or style that connects with you, the opposite is true too.

I'm still working on trying to come up with a baseline to shoot 7D video. It's a given that we all aren't trying to get the same look for the end result and there are clearly many options. But for a common "best" way for me to set up the camera I'm starting to narrow it down. I was surprised by a new wrinkle I did not understand when reviewing an article on Canon's Digital Learning Center website Here is a quote;

"With the mode dial set to any location other than "M", when you shoot video, the camera will automatically select lens aperture and shutter speed, as well as ISO, based on the light in the scene. Exposure will adjust automatically, on the fly, if the light changes as you move the camera during a shot. Keep in mind that even though the Mode Dial has settings for Tv (shutter-priority automatic) and Av (aperture-priority automatic), these are for still image shooting only. Once you begin shooting video, these will simply revert the camera to totally automatic, programmed exposure — the camera always picks both video shutter speed and aperture."

Well worth reading the article. Sorry if everyone knew that but me. Learn something every day.

So here are my baseline jump settings as a complete rookie video shooter, - clear water, and tropical location with some sunshine overhead.

Manual mode - (OK so I'm a bit of a control freak)

1920x1080 @ 30fps (for normal shots 60fps if going to slow mo)

Shutter at 1/60^{th (}There is another article from Canon on shutter speed here)

Aperture - appropriate for the clip

ISO at 160 or multiple - (I will still consider going to Auto ISO in the right situation. Like a coral tunnel with rapidly changing exposures for example)

AF set to rear button

AF Live View - Quick Mode (just because it's faster, I still want to play with this and Live mode in real shooting situations)

WB- set for the shot and the depth with grey card especially if using Magic filters.

I have this idea that after a couple of days of reviewing the video in a particular location I'll be able to set the Kelvin temp directly in the camera for known conditions. If you're diving the Liberty in the same conditions four days in a row why not just dial it in? Maybe even preset three different depths using the Camera User Settings C1, C2 and C3. In theory you could just dial in the depth.

Or just set it on cloudy

Presets- I'll go with Neutral to start and experiment with a lower Contrast, lower Saturation, and lower Sharpness per XXX suggestion. I can see how this could have a major impact when shooting at higher ISOs to avoid banding and the appearance of noise.

Auto Power Off set to "Off", found out I don't want to re setup the camera if I don't shoot a clip for a few minutes.

And all of this set up on Custom settings C3 so I can get to the jump settings quickly and not have to look at the camera.

Damn, I'm going to need a bigger slate.

If I'm way of base or forgetting something please let me know.

Cheers,

Steve

.......maybe it's the evreyday stuff that seperates the men from the boys.

 

Cheers,

Steve

Speaking of the difference between hobbyists and pros, last nights season finale of the TV show "House" was shot with three Canon 5d's.

Hard to believe a whole year has flown by since I posted this. Has anyone found a baseline video setting that would be different? Our buddy and longtime Wetpixel member Steve Douglas just got a 7D for video and I wanted to point him here as a place to start.

Any updates?

Cheers,

Steve

Steve is right, just got one and it is a big and scary transition for me from a regular camcorder. Been bugging Steve with questions very consistently for the last two weeks. The man has patience! ;-)

Steve

Well Steve Williams must have the patience of a saint. He spent a couple of hours on the phone with me last night going through all the different settings and buttons on the 7D. Very different than handling a camcorder so I am back to very beginner status. I have found over the years that the best way to learn something is to teach what you know to someone else. Thank god Steve is here, I'd be lost in a maze of a manual.

Steve

Okay, finally got over the complete intimidation of this thing. Went out and shot some stills and clips. I know this sounds absurd, but when I plug it into the computer, it opens up in iPhoto and I can see it mounted in iPhoto but I cannot drag the video clips to the desktop. Also, there is no Canon 7D on the desktop and I don't see it in the Disc Utility either. Went to FCP's log and transfer window and nothing there either.

I must be doing something wrong with this thing. Suggestions?

Steve