PADI Divemaster and UK HSE Regs

Hi All,

Just about to do some filming work in an aquarium. Apparently I need PADI Divemaster or equivalent. I have Divemaster, but last renewed the subscription in 2004, as I don't teach. Does anyone know if I need my membership to be current in order to be above-board with HSE regulations/Insurance (I have current professional insurance).

Thanks,

Fergus

You will need to check the Media ACOPs to see what qualifications are acceptable - but I can't see that a lapsed subscription alters the status of you being qualified. However you should sort out the situation beforehand - I know that the Blue Planet Aquarium (Cheshire) experience of this sort of thing so it might just be worth asking them - depending on what you are doing and who for it can all get very grey, and since aquaria are very public you do want to get things right. One thing that you will need if working is a current HSE Medical.

Thanks Paul. That's kind of what I thought. I've already been told by the client that Divemaster is fine. Thanks for the heads up about the medical. By the way, I think I dived with you years ago on Sarn Badrig (about '94 I reckon), when I was a student at Bangor. Nice dive, viz was a bit iffy, as always!

Hi Fergus

If you do any paid work (including filming or photographing) while diving in the UK or for a UK based company anywhere in the world then you need an HSE Commercial dive qualification (old Commercial Part IV now called Professional Scuba). Not trying to scare the bejeebies out of you but the penalty for not complying with the Diving at Work Regulations for individuals is bad, but it is even worse for the employer and I'm almost certain it can include time behind bars for serious offenses. I'm sure the Aquarium would know about this already as they would absolutely need to comply with the Diving at Work Regulations if they have their staff going into the tanks on Scuba or Surface Supply. I'm only mentioning this because you say you are going to do some 'filming work' If it is just for fun then I should imagine that they are asking for the DM qualification purely as a sign of competence, although it could be for insurance purposes I suppose...

Hope this helps

Cheers, Simon

Give me the Job I'm H.S.E'd to the hilt !!!

Dive safe

DeanB

LOL I could have put on a massive bet that you'd chip in with something like that Dean!

LOL I could have put on a massive bet that you'd chip in with something like that Dean!

Never let it be said I wouldn't help out a mate in crisis

Dive safe

DeanB

I believe PADI/IANTD DM is equivalent to the HSE "media diver" requirement. So is GUE.

Hi all,

The HSE has a special designation within the media ACOP for a benign environment. I forget the actual description, but tanks/swimming pools/aquaria do fit into it. In such environments, Divemaster will be fine.

In an open water environment, you will need an HSE Scuba qualification. The recreational qualifications are not eqivalent.

You do not need to a paid up current Divemaster, as Paul has said, but you will need an HSE diving medical.

I'll dig out the actual ACOP when I get to work to quote the actual text.

Anyway ignore Dean-pick me me me!

Adam

Apparently you can jump in, film whatever you want then 'sell' the footage to the client without having an H.S.E. Apparently

Dive safe

DeanB

I believe PADI/IANTD DM is equivalent to the HSE "media diver" requirement.

They may be equivalent in training, in some ways those qualifications may have more in depth in training, but like I said legally under the Diving at Work Regulations you cannot work diving in the UK or for a UK based company anywhere in the world without the HSE qualification, or equivalent level Commercial diving qualification - Recreational/Tech Scuba qualifications just don't count. As you can see from the amount of people lining up saying "pick me, pick me" there's more than a few of us out there with it though!

I didn't know that there was an ACOP for confined water environments Adam, so that's a new one to me. Good for Fergus though!

Cheers, Simon

As I understand it (and I was a consultant on the Media Diver ACOPS) you will need a current HSE Medical Certificate, a risk-assessment for the dive site, a fully equipped stand-by diver and an O2 set standing alongside the point of entry. This is effective if using compressed gas. If you were cleaning an empty pool with a foot of water in it, you need the same if you use compressed gas to breathe but not if you hold your breath. This is why I am often seem taking a dip on my own at Wraysbury Lake armed with nothing more than a snorkel!

On the other hand,as Dean rightly says, if there is no contract and you are not being paid to actually do the work, you won't need anything. It doesn't seem to matter if you can sell the work afterwards although it must not be proven that it was tacitly agreed that someone would buy your stuff before you started.

If in doubt telephone Phil Crombie at the HSE. 02077176701. He is a very nice chap. (Tell him I said so!)

I could always do the job for you but I am INCREDIBLY expensive!

IIRC, The minimum qualification that the HSE accepts for professional work (not instructing scuba courses) underwater using compressed gas is CMAS *** or equivalent, i.e. TDI Extended Range. A PADI DM would fall short of this. This information is buried on the HSE www site somewhere...

Hope this helps, Tim

Sttill haven't got to work, but here is the approved list of qualifications. DM is deemed to be a CMAS three star equivalent and so does meet the minimum requirement.

If you are diving at an open water site and are "behind" the camera you definately need HSE Scuba. If you are in front of the camera (or teaching) in Open Water, a relevant recreation aqualification (+medical +team etc.) will do.

Adam

They may be equivalent in training, in some ways those qualifications may have more in depth in training, but like I said legally under the Diving at Work Regulations you cannot work diving in the UK or for a UK based company anywhere in the world without the HSE qualification, or equivalent level Commercial diving qualification - Recreational/Tech Scuba qualifications just don't count.

Simon, here is the quote from the PDF I got from HSE which I had to do to qualify for the work years ago:

HSE approves the following additional qualifications for the class of Media Diving.

Where the divers are actors and performers and their associated safety divers (including stunt divers and presenters) who regularly dive as part of their work, and who are taking part in a live performance or the recording of a performance.**

Recreational

CMAS 3*

CMAS 3* equivalent in a recreational agency/organisation whose qualifications are approved by HSE for the class of Recreational Diving

In Benign Pools, Tanks or Aquariums, which is defined as inland in Great Britain in a tank or pool artificially constructed for the purpose of swimming or diving or use as an aquarium, where the diver is in full view from the surface at all times, where no entanglement or entrapment hazards are present, with no interference from other activities, no scenery or set, and where the diver does not have any specially adapted diving equipment and/or specialist production equipment rigged on them whilst diving (the specialist production equipment rigged on the diver includes sound, lights and cameras):

 

Recreational

CMAS 2*

CMAS 2* equivalent in a recreational agency/organisation whose qualifications are approved by HSE for the class of Recreational Diving

 

**The term "media divers" includes: stunt people, journalists, presenters, photographers, camera operators, sound and lighting technicians, and the unit crew

As Adam says, the aquarium is considered a benign environment and thus Fergus qualifies under the Media Diver ACOPS since he's just shooting. Now if this was surface tied, then he needs the commercial licence, and there are equivalents to that too.

Oh and btw, once "offshore" on location, the rules of HSE don't seem to have any adherence to reality. So feel free to undercut Fergus on the gig.

IIRC, The minimum qualification that the HSE accepts for professional work (not instructing scuba courses) underwater using compressed gas is CMAS *** or equivalent, i.e. TDI Extended Range. A PADI DM would fall short of this. This information is buried on the HSE www site somewhere...

Tim, that is incorrect (although I'm sure CMAS would like to think otherwise) According to the HSE, it is equivalent.

Sttill haven't got to work, but here is the approved list of qualifications. DM is deemed to be a CMAS three star equivalent and so does meet the minimum requirement.

If you are diving at an open water site and are "behind" the camera you definately need HSE Scuba. If you are in front of the camera (or teaching) in Open Water, a relevant recreation aqualification (+medical +team etc.) will do.

Thanks adam, posted at the same time but I guess your link is more official than my quote

This post merely serves to show how misunderstood our HSE regulations for diving actually are - even those involved in professional diving (ie. not sports diver training) have varied 'opinions' on how they operate. Add to this some operators who overlay more of their own 'rules' (usually to serve as restrictive practices' - I can give instances) and the whole thing is a mess, with a lot of concern thrown in about actually talking to the HSE about any of it, and of course innumerable stories about ludicrous HSE requirements (some possibly true, many probably not) and inspector's apparently awkward requirements too (again some possibly true, many probably not).

Lets get a couple of things clear - if you are being PAID for underwater activity using compressed gas in the UK (or I believe from a UK registered vessel) then you fall under the Diving at Work Act. If you are taking photos or shooting video for fun and then happen to sell the images/footage afterwards, you may not - unless that is, you are actually trying to get around the HSE requirements - however proving this might be extremely difficult (if you were approached by someone to film something, did it and then sold the footage to them and this could be proved then you could just be in trouble) and its a very grey area which could also be difficult to prosecute as in many cases as it would involve proving intent which is I am told, far from easy. Shooting stock is something else too - another very grey area indeed (I've talked to the HSE about this and the inspector said this himself). However the HSE can take the view that if the work being carried out can be construed as part of self-employment.....

Whilst working for a UK based company abroad may involve adhering to HSE regs because the company believes this to be good practice (I think R Bull said that the BBC operate this way), I can't see that HSE regs are enforceable on a UK company outside the UK for various reasons - they might even contravene the countries' own regulations - and in any case the HSE have no jurisdiction for any sort of investigation - its a none starter as far as I can see, this one. Perhaps J Bantin will confirm whether he dives to HSE regs all the time outside the UK???!

If working under the HSE regs both diving contractor and diver also need to carry appropriate third party liability insurance and I'm far from convinced that anything other than specialist commercial scuba insurers or negotiated insurance (like my own) cover underwater work - last year clauses actually came in which specifically excluded underwater work which I had to negotiate out. I strongly doubt that the insurances intended primarily for diver training will cover HSE work - I've never been able to get a definitive answer about this when I've queried it! And specialist insurance is expensive!

As I said, its a complicated mess as far as I am concerned and I believe that it needs thorough revision - or primarily simplification - it might be worth writing MPs about it as we have a government who has gone on record as saying that it wants to reduce regulation and red tape!

Its interesting that whilst the HSE regulations are all about improving safety, adherence to 'rules' is all too often still seen as more important than a common sense approach to risk assessment and appropriate action (this is a real hobbyhorse of mine - has anyone ever tried signaling with a safety buoy in anything other than perfect conditions for example!). In another thread regulator maintenance is clearly perceived by some as something which is not absolutely necessary on a regular scheduled basis. As life-support, gear it is necessary and accepting this fact and dealing with it and paying out is simply a professional approach and on this note its worth commenting to the OP that all the equipment being used will need to be in test and maintained appropriately too.

In case anyone thinks that I have a vested interest in ensuring that HSE regs remain strict and reduce the number of divers in the phot/video/science 'industry', I do not. There are many highly competent divers out there who I believe could happily work if they only had the appropriate HSE qualification/insurance/medical/etc. However with the opportunity of working comes the responsibility of a professional attitude and the need to understand the risks and minimise them - serviced equipment, appropriate insurance and so on. I'd personally like to see a simpler system in place where everything is far more transparent and much easier to understand.

Lastly, I would also add that there needs to be an emphasis on experience - having all the bits of paper and gear are not enough on their own and I think that the ACOPs do require appropriate experience to carry out a job (which does beg the question of how such experience is obtained).

Oh yes, and whether an aquarium is considered a benign environment will partly depend on ease of entry/exit - some are not that simple to get in and out of. Also it depends whats in them (see pic!).

Paul

This benign environment is a new one on me. We need to adhere to HSE regs when we are in the pool. However, you are right to ask if I adhere to HSE regs when I am abroad. Well, thanks to HSE I've got the perfect excuse to jump on a 'plane! However, I am an old diver, not a bold diver. I try to stay safe and have turned my nose up at dives and kit I didn't fancy - 'cos I'm worth it!

Hi again all,

The information about aquariums is on Diving Information Sheet no 8:

"Diving in being conditions, and in pools, tanks, aquariums and helicopter underwater escape training"

Benign conditions in the document in relation to aquariums are:

4 a) in a tank or pool artificially constructed for the purpose of swimming, diving or use as an aquarium or media facility;

 

b) where the diver is in full view from the surface at all times; and

 

c) where no entanglement or entrapment hazards are present; and

 

d) where there is no interference from other activities, eg no scenery or set in media diving and no powerful or aggressive animals in fish storage tanks or aquariums, as justified by risk assessment.

Point 11 states:

Generally for diving in aquariums, the minimum approved qualifications are:

 

a) HSE Scuba under the commercial inland/inshore and media ACOPS;

 

b) CMAS 3* or equivalent under the scientific and archeological ACOP; and

 

c) CMAS 2* or equivalent for benign conditions in aquariums, under any of these ACOP's"

So if by risk assessment you can say that the aquarium meets the conditions as a benign environment, then the minimum qualification is actually CMAS 2* or equivalent.

The ACOPs are only enforceable in areas under UK law. However, some organizations chose to use them internationally as "best practice", in effect to avoid potential civil liability.

I agree Paul HSE regulations are complicated, and best sorted out by talking to the HSE! The insurance issue is even more difficult although my experience is that my status as a commercial diver under the recreational ACOP means that my insurers cover me under the media ACOP as well.

Adam

Simon, here is the quote from the PDF I got from HSE which I had to do to qualify for the work years ago:

For open water work Camera Operators and Safety Divers absolutely need the HSE qualification Drew and there really is no gray area or uncertainty about this. I don't know where that quote is from, or how old it is, but it is inaccurate and has been for as long as I've been aware of the Regs. If it were true then I doubt anyone on here would have done their HSE course! Like I said this benign environment / confined water exception is a new one to me, so I'm in the dark there.

I agree with Paul that this whole sorry mess gets very confusing, especially when you consider some of the bizarre exceptions to the rules. A prime example is that 'Presenters' don't really need any qualification at all other than a basic open water or advanced open water cert! They do however still need to operate under the Diving at Work Regs and you still need all the associated systems in place, Safety Divers, Dive Supervisor, Heath and Safety plan etc etc. Just to emphasise this is only for work in the UK or for UK based companies anywhere in the world that they operate. Whether or not the Diving at Work regs are enforceable while working abroad is a whole different can of worms. I'm sure that some organisations flout the laws when they can, but if an incident ever occured and they were seen to be deliberately disregarding the Diving at Work regs then they'd be in some serious, serious trouble back home. That's probably enough to deter most.

When you consider that a shoot that complies with the HSE Regs can easily cost over £1000 a day in wages alone before you actually do any diving then you can see why so many people try everything they can to avoid having to comply. Free diving / snorkeling suddenly looks a whole lot more financially attractive!

My personal opinion is that it really is all rather silly for our line of work. Ultimately for 99% of situations then if you are diving within your experience and within your qualifications it really doesn't seem to make much difference to me if you are being paid to do it or if you are doing it for fun.

Cheers, Simon