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PADI Divemaster and UK HSE Regs

Started by Ferg42 ·

  • 34Posts
  • 34Replies

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PADI Divemaster and UK HSE Regs

34 posts
  1. The insurance issue is even more difficult although my experience is that my status as a commercial diver under the recreational ACOP means that my insurers cover me under the media ACOP as well.

     

    Well Adam I have made a specific query regarding 'commercial' diving coverage from a very well known worldwide insurer. I can't quote the reply because 'dissemination...is prohibited" but I can absolutely state that it is both woolly and contradictory and to me it appears to say that it covers diving accidents for anyone but not 'commercial divers at work' which are not defined! I've read the small print and have come to no better conclusion from that either. So now I carry my own third liability insurance as well as this diving medical insurance for sport diving. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has queried similar insurers to see if anyone has actually had a definitive response.

  2. I think its safe to say that if the wording on an insurance policy is woolly then the chances are that the insurance company will try to wriggle out in the event of a claim.

     

    Cheers, Simon

  3. For open water work Camera Operators and Safety Divers absolutely need the HSE qualification Drew and there really is no gray area or uncertainty about this. I don't know where that quote is from, or how old it is, but it is inaccurate and has been for as long as I've been aware of the Regs. If it were true then I doubt anyone on here would have done their HSE course! :drink: Like I said this benign environment / confined water exception is a new one to me, so I'm in the dark there.

     

    Simon, no one is saying you don't need qualify. The HSE qualification has equivalents besides their own courses, as stipulated in Adam's link. I suggest you read Schedule 5 of the HSE Qualifications link (which is the official HSE website) Adam posted. It's the same wording as I pasted. It clearly states that:

     

     

    The class of Media Diving(29) is defined as diving inland in Great Britain and inshore within United Kingdom territorial sea adjacent to Great Britain (generally 12 nautical miles from the low water line) which is covered by the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (Application outside Great Britain) Order 2001(30) in support of underwater work by media divers(31) but does not include diving:

     

    to prepare underwater locations that require engineering and construction skills or the handling or use of explosives, for which a qualification for the class of Inshore/Inland Diving is required;

    where closed bell or saturation diving techniques are to be used, for which a qualification for the class of Offshore Diving is required;

    from vessels maintaining station by the use of dynamic positioning, for which a qualification for the class of Offshore Diving is required.

     

    Thus Fergus' position in the aquarium is covered, as is any camera operator/AC which is a media diver in the ocean so long as it stays within those guidelines. I happen to know that shooting from any anchored boat within 12 nm from shore (as a general guideline) is considered media diving, as interpreted by certain UK companies when shooting in non-UK locations. Check with the HSE if you don't believe their website.

  4. Blimey, what a lot of chat since I last looked!

    Well I'm going to see the potential client tomorrow, and they seemed to be pretty clued up on HSE and the Aquarium use divers so they know what they're talking about. Don't worry Dean, if it all falls through I'll give you a call. But there aren't any pike involved :drink:

     

    In any case, looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and do the HSE course and some point if I want to be able to do more of this stuff. Just a bit of a pain and a reasonable chunk of money, especially if I only use it occasionally.....

     

    The whole issue has arisen several times in the past, as virtually all my work diving has been overseas for overseas clients where there is little regulation of 'scientific' or 'media' diving and the whole area has been very confused to say the least. Sometimes I've been cleared to do scientific diving, sometimes I've had to dive with a commercial buddy or supervisor and sometimes we've had to use commercial divers and communicate from with them from the surface.

  5. Drew sorry you are misunderstanding the requirements, but I know that is very easy to do as they are so dam complicated! :drink:

     

    To clarify the minimum requirements for a Media diver (apart from as a presenter) are that you comply with the HSE requirements for Inland/Inshore diving. There is NO equivalent CMAS recreational or technical qualification for Inland/Inshore diving. None at all. You simply can't rock up with a PADI DM qualification (or something similar) and work as a camera operator for a UK based company or any company no matter where they are based while diving at work in the UK.

     

    Admittedly there does appear to be this new section (or a section I'd never heard of before) for benign environments like an Aquarium or a pool which does allow a CMAS recreational qualification crossover. I was therefore wrong to initially tell Fergus (sorry Fergus! :) ) that he needed the HSE qualification.

     

    Carefully re-read that whole document that Adam linked if you've got the patience to go through it all with a few short breaks to bang your head against a brick wall! :) I had previously only commented on what you'd posted without reading the link, but after reading it through it is all explained there.

     

    Cheers, Simon

    Edited by SimonSpear
  6. It looks like Simon is right where media divers are concerned (not including pools etc). Except that there is a line that says a Media Diver also falls under the following qualification:

     

    "Diving Experience under The Diving Operations at Work Regulations 1981 exemption DOW/2/81"

     

    Can someone look up what exemption DOW/2/81 is? I cant find it :drink:

  7. Thanks for the correction chaps ;-) I struggling with how a PADI DM can be deemed to be equivalent to CMAS ***. But who am I to judge either the HSE or a DM?

  8. Simon,

    I apologize for not being very clear about things and thus should clarify myself. What I am saying is that the HSE is not the only certification accepted by the HSE and there are equivalents, and those are clearly listed in Schedule 1 and 2. You read that too. I did not mean PADI or IANTD for those except for Fergus' case, where it's clear in my initial one liner response. Then you responded with:

    They may be equivalent in training, in some ways those qualifications may have more in depth in training, but like I said legally under the Diving at Work Regulations you cannot work diving in the UK or for a UK based company anywhere in the world without the HSE qualification, or equivalent level Commercial diving qualification - Recreational/Tech Scuba qualifications just don't count. As you can see from the amount of people lining up saying "pick me, pick me" there's more than a few of us out there with it though! :drink:

     

    Then I responded with an incoherent:

    Thus Fergus' position in the aquarium is covered, as is any camera operator/AC which is a media diver in the ocean so long as it stays within those guidelines. I happen to know that shooting from any anchored boat within 12 nm from shore (as a general guideline) is considered media diving, as interpreted by certain UK companies when shooting in non-UK locations. Check with the HSE if you don't believe their website.

    ..which caused further confusion. I think our wires were crossed when I wrote that incoherent paragraph because it means more that media diver could qualify for open water with the same qualifications as in benign/aquarium, when it obviously is not. I was actually trying to respond to your statement:

    For open water work Camera Operators and Safety Divers absolutely need the HSE qualification Drew and there really is no gray area or uncertainty about this. I don't know where that quote is from, or how old it is, but it is inaccurate and has been for as long as I've been aware of the Regs. If it were true then I doubt anyone on here would have done their HSE course!

    I read that as you saying anyone who wants to work in the UK or a UK company has to be HSE certified. Many foreigners (myself included) have worked in the UK and for UK companies using the equivalents certification as qualifier.

    Basically with your last reply, you cleared up your end and I thought I'd clear up mine so there's no confusion.

     

    It is interesting to note that the US standards, ACDE and ADCI, are NOT listed as equivalents. Not even IMCA is listed. Looking at the equivalent qualification list, it looks like it is an EU/Commonwealth bias.

    Edited by Drew
  9. In any case, looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and do the HSE course and some point if I want to be able to do more of this stuff. Just a bit of a pain and a reasonable chunk of money, especially if I only use it occasionally.....

     

     

    Tony Hilgrove... He is the HSE master :drink:

     

    Dive safe

     

    DeanB

  10. In any case, looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and do the HSE course and some point if I want to be able to do more of this stuff. Just a bit of a pain and a reasonable chunk of money, especially if I only use it occasionally.....

     

    Take the course and do it if you think there is more work and a future. If you want to be treated professionally, then just as PGK states, it more than helps to have professional qualifications et al.

     

    I should add that I'm NOT suggesting you are anything but professional, but HSE SCUBA puts you on a different level from those who do not hold it.

     

    Southampton-based Andark run HSE SCUBA courses and they might be the closest to you.

  11. Simon,

    I apologize for not being very clear about things and thus should clarify myself.

     

    Drew I both think we got our knickers in a bit of a twist over this! :drink: The original question was about Aquarium's and as I really wasn't aware of the benign environment ACOP I kind of lumped everything in together, which is probably where it all started to go wrong. I think Paul said earlier how easy it was even for people who know about this stuff to get confused - this thread sure is a prime example of that! :)

     

    Cheers, Simon

     

    P.S. I'd second Tony Hillgrove as a great HSE trainer and all round diving Guru!

    Edited by SimonSpear
  12. I think Paul said earlier how easy it was even for people who know about this stuff to get confused - this thread sure is a prime example of that!

    I just turn up and do what the Supervisor says - adherence to rules doesn't always make things safe though. I think that you may still have to pay for copies of the ACOPs too. Its quite simply a mess from start to finish. But the bit of paper does help :drink: . The biggest cowboys that I've seen are a few of the purely commercial lot.......

  13. As I said earlier ... Atlhough of course, Hypothetically speaking and in no way endorsed by myself, If you know the contractor/company and you can trust them, then suggest selling them the footage you shot during that day for an agreed (day rate) price... No HSE needed.

    ..

    Dive safe

     

    DeanB

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