Egypt as a destination

I am out in Sharm at the moment and there seems to be a great deal of concern from the diving industry workers. It is rumoured that work permits will not be renewed when they expire and if an Egyptian worker is capable of doing the job that currently a European is doing, then the European will not be employed and the Egyptian will be. Many of the people that I used to dive with have headed home to the UK or in the process of winding things up over here ready to return to the UK. I have been diving with RedSeaSnapper this week and enjoyed some fantastic diving out at Ras Mo. Business is picking up slowly since the revolution and also the problem with the shark attacks. My fears are that with the European workforce gone and Egyptians working without any Europeans around them that the high standards will be gone very quickly. I have also been informed that CDWS is in the process of being wound up and that there was a lot of problems within the organisation regarding money expenditure. I think that Egypt is facing a very serious problem, and if non nationals are not allowed to work here under permit, then Egypt will see an even bigger number of unemployment due to the fact that no Europeans will visiting and staying at hotels or booking themselves into dive schools.

Stew

Surely this is no worse than when Sinai returned to Egyptian control and the diving trade really expanded? Egyptians run the liveaboards and whilst its nice to have some Europeans as guides, the Egyptians have been just as good in my experience. I would agree that it's heavy-handed and short-sighted, unfair and maybe even racist to throw out people who have contributed a lot to the success of Egyptian diving, but it isn't necessarily catastrophic.

Tim

It could so easily be catastrophic Tim.

Without the Europeans in place then the kickbacks and corruption (that are rampant just below the surface) could so easily escalate to unimaginable proportions.

That is before greed kicks in and in the absolute worst case then we have another Zimbabwe situation.

This may not matter overall but on the way down the pan the environment would likely take the hit - we have already seen a move toward opening fishing in Ras Mohamed marine park to coincide with the snapper aggregation.

With a longer down turn of the dive industry this would be almost inevitable.

Yes the Egyptian dive guides have been great - but are they enough to sustain the whole industry ?

Paul C

Surely this is no worse than when Sinai returned to Egyptian control and the diving trade really expanded? Egyptians run the liveaboards and whilst its nice to have some Europeans as guides, the Egyptians have been just as good in my experience. I would agree that it's heavy-handed and short-sighted, unfair and maybe even racist to throw out people who have contributed a lot to the success of Egyptian diving, but it isn't necessarily catastrophic.

Tim, it could be said it's equally racist to assume that all Egyptians are corrupt and incapable of running businesses in their own country. Transfer of knowledge then removal of expats has been going on for thousands of years on every continent. No such thing as an endless summer. Nativism is an unfortunate side effect of human nature, who tend to want to stick to what is familiar.

It could so easily be catastrophic Tim.

 

Without the Europeans in place then the kickbacks and corruption (that are rampant just below the surface) could so easily escalate to unimaginable proportions.

 

That is before greed kicks in and in the absolute worst case then we have another Zimbabwe situation.

 

This may not matter overall but on the way down the pan the environment would likely take the hit - we have already seen a move toward opening fishing in Ras Mohamed marine park to coincide with the snapper aggregation.

 

With a longer down turn of the dive industry this would be almost inevitable.

 

Yes the Egyptian dive guides have been great - but are they enough to sustain the whole industry ?

 

Paul C

Paul, I think you're being overly dramatic to compare the Egyptians to the Zimbabweans just because they want to galvanize their own people to take responsibility of Egyptian businesses. If the Egyptians taking over the dive businesses don't do a good enough job, then tourism will stop and they will suffer for their follies.

I can show an ops in Bali as an example where locals became bosses and run successful dive shops. I've used BIDP in Bali for over a decade now. Run by a local Indonesian, Avandy, they run a tight shop. Their clientele include celebs and diving legends, so they can't be that shabby. So the accent is different and not as fluent, but the point is that locals have the ability to step up, even though it will take time.

I think supporting the locals is a good thing. I sincerely hope that the days where tourists from the west wanting to see dive guides/managers/owners from the west will be over ASAP everywhere!

I hope they manage to keep it going and quality up; Egypt is in a heap of financial trouble as a whole, with real concerns about their ability to feed themselves. Apparently Egypt imports more than 50% of the food it needs, and cash reserves, foreign investment etc are drying up fast, with huge capital flight.

How his effects a fairly localized area like the the Sinai dive area remains to be seen, but if they don't maintain the standards, then visions of Zimbabwe are not that far fetched.

Drew I so hope you are correct, and I did say "absolute worst case".

Overall there is no problem with locals being responsible for their own and ultimately their countries destiny - it is probably what we all strive for on some level or other.

While galvanizing their population to take responsibility is laudable it depends on quite how it was done. If it was via a system of regulation that disenfranchised current businesses then it is altogether more ugly.

Such a transition needs to be planned and any changeover should not be 'forced' overnight.

Paul C

I hope they manage to keep it going and quality up; Egypt is in a heap of financial trouble as a whole, with real concerns about their ability to feed themselves. Apparently Egypt imports more than 50% of the food it needs, and cash reserves, foreign investment etc are drying up fast, with huge capital flight.

How his effects a fairly localized area like the the Sinai dive area remains to be seen, but if they don't maintain the standards, then visions of Zimbabwe are not that far fetched.

Jeff, I know you know the history of Rhodesia/Zim and I'm sorta surprised you equate the Egyptian issue as a precursor to what Mugabe did in Zim.

First of all, since the issue of work permits has come up in the last few years in Egypt, it's not like the expat dive staff didn't have warning of an impending end to their work stint. Like old photographers who bemoan the DSLR age, where Tom Dick and Mary have forced the stock photo market prices down, I think this "resistance" to change is something akin to that.

Secondly, the jobs should be based on qualifications, and not nationality (or for some, race). On my trips out to Egypt, I found both good and bad foreign and local staff, but overall the Egyptian staff were more than capable of doing the job.

As the world economy grows, the operators will need more Eastern European/Russian speaking staff, and I'm sure they will find the work permits for staff if there aren't any Egyptian equivalents. My limited experience with Egyptian staff has been generally excellent, and many speak several languages other than English.

The point is that the political (in)stability is causing the slowdown in tourism, NOT the fact that the staff is Egyptian or not. The Europeans will still want their cheap dive holidays and the alternatives of Israel and other neighboring countries are just not the same. I think with the slower tourism right now, the Egyptians have a great window to train up their instructors/DM and other staff for when the boom times return.

I'm pretty sure once the Egyptians take over, they will savor the competition and do well. To say the foreigners are the pillars of the dive industry is probably a belief supported by those who work there, and it may have been true 20 years ago, I think it's evident that the Egyptians don't agree with that "fact" anymore. I doubt Egypt will let that industry fail.

Drew I so hope you are correct, and I did say "absolute worst case".

 

Overall there is no problem with locals being responsible for their own and ultimately their countries destiny - it is probably what we all strive for on some level or other.

 

While galvanizing their population to take responsibility is laudable it depends on quite how it was done. If it was via a system of regulation that disenfranchised current businesses then it is altogether more ugly.

 

Such a transition needs to be planned and any changeover should not be 'forced' overnight.

 

Paul C

Paul

If my memory serves me, the CDWS brought up the visa issue way back in 2009, so it's not like they woke up one morning and decided they didn't want the firanji around anymore (although it may seem like that). With the unemployment at over 10%, I think any strategic planner would kick out foreigners once the local population can take up the jobs competently. The time has just come for the Egyptians to show that they can or fall flat on their face.

Jeff, I know you know the history of Rhodesia/Zim and I'm sorta surprised you equate the Egyptian issue as a precursor to what Mugabe did in Zim.

Drew, I'm really not equating what's going on in Egypt to Zim at all in the political sense. Frankly would never have even thought about it if Paul had not brought it up. What I fear is the potential economic collapse of Egypt and the real potential for issues like starvation. If, and how those would impact the Red Sea area and the diving industry, I have no idea. I agree with you, the issues going on with regard to locals taking over the dive industry, are not necessarily bad; the problem is that what is going on in the dive industry is part of the much bigger problem of capital flight from the country. In that sense, the potential for economic devastation, could resemble the economic devastation that has occurred in Zim, which was previously a food exporting country, though hard to imagine it could be as bad. Maybe the dive industry, if it continues to bring people and money will remain immune from all that.

Well Egypt's biggest chunk of GDP is based on services including tourism, off the top of my head. If they don't find a way to fix it, then they will have big problems. I do agree that the Egyptians are on a precipice right now as a country, but I'm sure they'll muddle through political and economic reforms like most others do. I think Egypt is too important on the tourism map to fall off, especially for the rich countries who want a cheap, sunny holiday within 6 hours flying.

Tim, it could be said it's equally racist to assume that all Egyptians are corrupt and incapable of running businesses in their own country.

??!**!?

I thought that was exactly my point? That the Egyptians have the right to run their own businesses, even if they may be making mistakes? You seem to misunderstand me, and not just on this occasion...

Tim

I thought that was exactly my point? That the Egyptians have the right to run their own businesses, even if they may be making mistakes? You seem to misunderstand me, and not just on this occasion...

Not at all, Tim. I'm reinforcing your statement. Sorry if you thought I was referring to your comments. It was not directed at anyone in particular but a generalization of misconceptions about Egyptians.

... misconceptions about Egyptians...

Too true! Just like we Brits drink tea and Yanks wear loud shirts...

... oh, hang on a minute - that is true, isn't it?

Tim

Not at all, Tim. I'm reinforcing your statement. Sorry if you thought I was referring to your comments. It was not directed at anyone in particular but a generalization of misconceptions about Egyptians.

I dont understand this comment. Where do you get the idea that there is a generalisation of misconception about Egyptians Drew.

I am intrigued

Stew

The rights and wrongs cans be debated forever but the tourism industry is more about public perception and fashion than fact.

Looking at the poll in here, (from presumably more informed and dedicated divers) they might be in trouble. Although it's not a majority, 30% is a lot of business to loose without downsizing infrastructure.

"My fears are that with the European workforce gone and Egyptians working without any Europeans around them that the high standards will be gone very quickly"

I find this whole subject is rather insulting to Egyptians. Why in the world shouldn´t Egyptians be able to run their countrys dive industry without Europeans around them!? The idea of Egyptians not being able to keep a safe dive industry running is beyond me. Just as in any other countries with dive industries, there will be good and bad dive operations in Egypt, both before and after an "egyptisation" of the diving industry. As there is today. I have been diving lots of places in the world with local as well as foreign run companies. I fail to see any consistently bad with local and good with foreign run companies.

For Egypt, the best Rescue course instructor I have ever seen doing his job was Egyptian. The best company I dived with there was fully Egyptian run and owned (as far as I know). The best liveaboard I have done there was staffed purely Egyptian.

That 30% of divers will not dive in Egypt without European staff is embarrassing to say the least. I really hope that that not in itself is an indication of the general attitude towards non-europeans by the divers answering the poll!

I find this whole subject is rather insulting to Egyptians. Why in the world shouldn´t Egyptians be able to run their countrys dive industry without Europeans around them!? The idea of Egyptians not being able to keep a safe dive industry running is beyond me. Just as in any other countries with dive industries, there will be good and bad dive operations in Egypt, both before and after an "egyptisation" of the diving industry. As there is today. I have been diving lots of places in the world with local as well as foreign run companies. I fail to see any consistently bad with local and good with foreign run companies.

Wow Bent, well said! And the good thing about lean times is it tends to weed out the operators who work on undercutting the big ops. They tend to be cash poor and hence, they may go under as the big ops slash prices.

For Egypt, the best Rescue course instructor I have ever seen doing his job was Egyptian. The best company I dived with there was fully Egyptian run and owned (as far as I know). The best liveaboard I have done there was staffed purely Egyptian.

Are you sure there wasn't a Peter Sellers type guy, dressed up as an Egyptian acting the part?

That 30% of divers will not dive in Egypt without European staff is embarrassing to say the least. I really hope that that not in itself is an indication of the general attitude towards non-europeans by the divers answering the poll!

Don't worry, 20 people don't make quite the significant portion of the diving world, especially the majority of diving tourists which make up a more significant group.

In fairness, Paul's comments appeared to reflect concern about management issues rather than diving competence.

Unfortunately issues regarding kickbacks, bribery and corruption in Egypt in general are not without foundation and could severely affect any service industry, irrespective of individual competence. I know this could kick up a firestorm, but one only has to pass back and forth through passport control and customs at Taba a few times to experience some drastic differences in 'management' between cultures.

Only time will tell......

....Don't worry, 20 people don't make quite the significant portion of the diving world, especially the majority of diving tourists which make up a more significant group.

I fear that the majority of diving tourists may be more fickle than the more serious divers.

In fairness, Paul's comments appeared to reflect concern about management issues rather than diving competence.

Loftus, I did not react so much to Paul´s comment. It was the part of the OP:

"My fears are that with the European workforce gone and Egyptians working without any Europeans around them that the high standards will be gone very quickly"

and especially the part "Egyptians working without any Europeans around them" that I think is totally unreasonable. I will not go into a further discussion about such a statement, but it should be pretty clear to most people that such statements of nationbased incompetence, and for that sake the opposite, the quality assurance of Europeans, are highly questionable.

"Are you sure there wasn't a Peter Sellers type guy, dressed up as an Egyptian acting the part? "

He didn´t have the Indian accent! And if it was PS, he really did work hard and acted as loads of different people!! He actually made the rescue diver take a couple of days extra course in order to do everything correct. Much, much better than my own rescue course.

Cheers Bent (who will teach a reef ecology course on an Egyptian staffed liveaboard in November and spend the following week in the Red Sea safari camp close to Marsa Alam.)

In fairness, Paul's comments appeared to reflect concern about management issues rather than diving competence.

Unfortunately issues regarding kickbacks, bribery and corruption in Egypt in general are not without foundation and could severely affect any service industry, irrespective of individual competence. I know this could kick up a firestorm, but one only has to pass back and forth through passport control and customs at Taba a few times to experience some drastic differences in 'management' between cultures.

Only time will tell......

Well corruption isn't just a developing country trait. I think you'll find it in every country and culture. Sometimes very blatant and sometimes so secret only Julian Assange knows about it. I mean, world wide sport event bids anyone? Kickback, baksheesh call it what you will... it's a human trait.

Speaking of human traits, feeling "safer" with similar people to oneself is quite normal. Ethnic groups have done that for tens of thousands of years. Still, a thread like this will draw fire because of the generalizations and assumptions, which not only aren't very pc, but also wrong. I mean an Egyptian owned and ran Harrods and the Queen shopped there... and his son dated Di! Come on, how can anyone slight Egyptian management after that?