Egypt as a destination

Well corruption isn't just a developing country trait. I think you'll find it in every country and culture. Sometimes very blatant and sometimes so secret only Julian Assange knows about it. I mean, world wide sport event bids anyone? Kickback, baksheesh call it what you will... it's a human trait.

 

Speaking of human traits, feeling "safer" with similar people to oneself is quite normal. Ethnic groups have done that for tens of thousands of years. Still, a thread like this will draw fire because of the generalizations and assumptions, which not only aren't very pc, but also wrong. I mean an Egyptian owned and ran Harrods and the Queen shopped there... and his son dated Di! Come on, how can anyone slight Egyptian management after that?

Now Drew, that is an absurd, analogy. There are wealthy and successful individuals from every race, ethnicity, religion or nationality. This is not about PC or or being morally wrong. The hard reality is that Egypt is 157th in terms of GNP per capita. For comparison their neighbor Israel is 35th and even next door Morocco and Libya are 146th and 89th respectively. The reasons at this point are immaterial. And this was before the revolution. All indicators are that this will only get worse, at least in the short term. As I said earlier, hopefully this will not trickle down to the diving industry; but only time will tell.

BTW Zimbabwe is 206 and Zimbabweans are now royalty in Monaco, and likely in England soon as well, so what does that mean, that Zimbabweans are smarter than Egyptians (a couple of hot Zimbabweans got further than that el-Fayed boy) or just that marrying well trumps everything.

http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PNBH2.html

The owner of Harrods might have been a bad example to choose! (He has never been allowed a British passport and when I asked an ex-member of our government why he and Tiny Rowlands were in acrimonious dispute about the purchase of Harrods, I was told it was because they were both crooks!)

However, most of the diving businesses have been Egyptian-owned for many years, and why not?

More to the point, it is the bucket-and-spade business that has allowed the Red Sea Riviera to develop and that has been scared away. Because of that, the airlines have redirected their resources elsewhere. There are few flights going to the Red Sea airports now and I guess there will be fewer. I have recently tried to get out to the Red Sea for a project, which we abandoned because there were no seats available. I booked my wife a trip in October and had great difficulty finding a seat for her.

The airlines aren't going to fly empty aircraft.

Now Drew, that is an absurd, analogy. There are wealthy and successful individuals from every race, ethnicity, religion or nationality. This is not about PC or or being morally wrong. The hard reality is that Egypt is 157th in terms of GNP per capita. For comparison their neighbor Israel is 35th and even next door Morocco and Libya are 146th and 89th respectively. The reasons at this point are immaterial. And this was before the revolution. All indicators are that this will only get worse, at least in the short term. As I said earlier, hopefully this will not trickle down to the diving industry; but only time will tell.

 

BTW Zimbabwe is 206 and Zimbabweans are now royalty in Monaco, and likely in England soon as well, so what does that mean, that Zimbabweans are smarter than Egyptians (a couple of hot Zimbabweans got further than that el-Fayed boy) or just that marrying well trumps everything.

 

http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PNBH2.html

Hehe, as they say, banks are amoral when it comes to opening accounts. And $500 million does make you a lot better looking in some people's eyes.

On a much more serious note, we've strayed far from the original post. The point that Egyptians have owned and run competent dive ops for awhile now. The removal of the foreign staff won't affect it too much and the fear of quality dropping because there aren't Euros running the show is bordering on inane!

As John says, there may be fewer flights but the flights going are full. They just had a revolution there and there'll be a lot of transitioning. It seems in the long run, it's business as usual, but just soon to be minus the non-egyptian staff. Personally I don't think there'll be a mass ejection anyhow. They've threatened to do so for years now and the foreign staff are still there! So what are we worried about again?

just that marrying well trumps everything.

Al Fayed married the sister of Kashoggi, the notorious arms dealer.

"My fears are that with the European workforce gone and Egyptians working without any Europeans around them that the high standards will be gone very quickly"

 

I find this whole subject is rather insulting to Egyptians. Why in the world shouldn´t Egyptians be able to run their countrys dive industry without Europeans around them!? The idea of Egyptians not being able to keep a safe dive industry running is beyond me. Just as in any other countries with dive industries, there will be good and bad dive operations in Egypt, both before and after an "egyptisation" of the diving industry. As there is today. I have been diving lots of places in the world with local as well as foreign run companies. I fail to see any consistently bad with local and good with foreign run companies.

If you find it insulting to Egyptians then that is fine Bent, but it is my opinion and fear that without Europeans managing the standards will drop. I don't know how much time you have actually spent living in Egypt, but if you have spent some time living there you will know that the Egyptians are not very good at management. I know it might sound racist to say things like this, but it is the truth. I deal with Egyptians on a daily basis and know what I am talking about. Most people when visiting Egypt, get off of a plane, get into a pre booked air conditioned coach, get whisked off to their liveaboard or hotel and then do a weeks diving then get taken back to the airport for a nice flight home. People that do this will never see the real Egypt or be able to understand why I raised this topic. I speak to Egyptians all the time and they themselves are concerned about foreign nationals not being allowed to renew their work permits. So they can see the bigger picture. Its no good having rose tinted glasses on and trying to be all so PC, its a dangerous game to play and all it does is hides the truth.

Its all well and good giving the Egyptians more work, but if it drives the tourists away by not having Europeans working there, then they wont have any jobs as there will be no need to employ them as they wont have any customers. Most Europeans who set up business in Egypt have to employ 11 Egyptians for every 1 non Egyptian that is employed. Lets just say that I opened up Stew Smith Dive Centre and employed 10 European instructors, then I would have to employ 110 locals as well. Ok I don't really have enough work to do for this amount of staff but that is the way it is so I have to employ that amount. Go forward a few months and now I am no longer allowed to employ any non nationals and I now employ 10 Egyptian instructors to replace the European instructors. Would I still need the 110 staff, would I still employ the 110 staff that I didn't really have work for. No of course not. I would employ the number that I needed to do the job sufficiently. So 50 of the 110 are now without work. How does this make for a better economy. It doesn't. Business being business and profit being the main goal in business, my fear would be that owners would employ the very least number that they could get by with and this in turn would lower the standards that we are used to.

For Egypt, the best Rescue course instructor I have ever seen doing his job was Egyptian. The best company I dived with there was fully Egyptian run and owned (as far as I know).

What company was this?

best liveaboard I have done there was staffed purely Egyptian.

Most liveaboards do have all Egyptian crew on board. What boat were you on?

Stew

However, most of the diving businesses have been Egyptian-owned for many years, and why not?

I dont recall ever saying that it is a bad idea for Egyptians to run their own companies.

More to the point, it is the bucket-and-spade business that has allowed the Red Sea Riviera to develop and that has been scared away. Because of that, the airlines have redirected their resources elsewhere. There are few flights going to the Red Sea airports now and I guess there will be fewer. I have recently tried to get out to the Red Sea for a project, which we abandoned because there were no seats available. I booked my wife a trip in October and had great difficulty finding a seat for her.

 

The airlines aren't going to fly empty aircraft.

Exactly that John. British Airways have stopped flying to Sharm now. Some tour operators will only sell you a seat on a plane if you book a package holiday. Hotels have closed their doors and are not open in Sharm, others are running at 20% capacity. The 20 % that are there are not the tourist that used to go to Egypt, they are the more " chavvy " type of holiday maker that try to find the cheapest deal they can and want to sit around a pool all day drinking watered down beer in tiny plastic cups with a brightly coloured wrist band on. This kind of tourist is not putting any money back into the local economy out there. Shop keepers, restaurant owners, bar owners, taxi drivers, local excursion shops are all suffering really badly in Sharm and have been since the start of the year. There is a very tense situation in Sharm at the moment and before long it will all go bang. When I speak to Egyptians they don't really know what they want, they have a misconception that the way we live our lives with an elected government is so much better, but when I ask them what they actually want from a democratic society, they don't have any ideas.

Stew

I don't know how much time you have actually spent living in Egypt, but if you have spent some time living there you will know that the Egyptians are not very good at management. I know it might sound racist to say things like this, but it is the truth. I deal with Egyptians on a daily basis and know what I am talking about. Most people when visiting Egypt, get off of a plane, get into a pre booked air conditioned coach, get whisked off to their liveaboard or hotel and then do a weeks diving then get taken back to the airport for a nice flight home. People that do this will never see the real Egypt or be able to understand why I raised this topic. I speak to Egyptians all the time and they themselves are concerned about foreign nationals not being allowed to renew their work permits. So they can see the bigger picture. Its no good having rose tinted glasses on and trying to be all so PC, its a dangerous game to play and all it does is hides the truth.

 

I have spent about ten years of my life in Africa and part of that in Egypt. I travel around three months every year professionally, currently mostly to Asia, but two or three times a year to Egypt. I have been the leader of courses on reef ecology since 2005 in Egypt. I would not consider my self one of the "Most people...", and, furthermore, working professionally with local people in Malaysia, the Phillipines and Egypt, I do not really believe that I have rose tinted glasses on. I still disagree highly with your absurd idea of Egyptians needing Europeans to look after the Egyptians. And such a statement doesn´t simply sound racist, it is blatantly racist! I am surprised that it is even allowed on a public forum such as Wetpixel, that have perticipants from around the world.

 

However, any pissing contest on who has been the most in Egypt (Sharm???) and thus have the correct answer to the problem is really beside the point. Racist comments are racist, simple as that. As far as my view on the world is concerned, racist beliefs are absurd, unconstructive and deeply concerning for our future.

 

What company was this?

 

Red Sea diving safaris.

 

Most liveaboards do have all Egyptian crew on board. What boat were you on?

 

I really have no idea what it was called. I have been on way to many liveaboards in Egypt to remember the names of the boats. However, many (more than half) of the liveaboards I have been on have had Europeans in charge of the diving. One of the worst liveaboards I have ever been on was with two European guides. Two of the three best have been with Egyptian dive management on board, the third with European. I know that the around twenty liveabaoards I have been on in the Red ea will be less data than wanted in order to make a proper analysis of the problem, but my experience gives me no reason at all to care regarding the management quality wether it is a European managing the diving or if it is an Egyptian managing it. For reasons not related to quality issues at all I would certainly prefer an Egyptian dive manager, as I find it much more rewarding to actually spend time with locals of the country I am visiting, but that is beside the point.

 

Bent C

Stew, this isn't the first time you've been negative about the Egyptians. You are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, whatever it may be. Your "opinion poll" and your allusions to the Egyptians being helpless without European management was the crux of your original post.

That position is untenable, and you have shown no evidence of the purported Egyptians ineptitude. The only data you supply is John's point that tourism has shrunk. And even you can't align that to your original premise.

Tourism is down because they had a serious revolution where many died for their freedom. Do you really think it has anything to do with the present labor situation?!? If you are going to question the Egyptian ability to manage the dive ops, please feel free to provide examples.

I can give you an example of an European DM in Sharm who was inept @ guiding and knowing where her divers are. And when she couldn't find her divers, she threw a tantrum @ her guests and Egyptian staff. I have other anecdotal examples of European(how many euro DMs turn up hang over for work) and Egyptian staff being problematic. However I (and most people I know) do not make broadstroke aspersions of the abilities of any nationality (not seriously anyways).

I sincerely think if Egyptians do make you feel so unsettled by their being in control, perhaps you should just leave Egypt and let them follow their destiny.

I also implore you to contain your public disdain of Egyptians on this board. It's becoming tedious and obviously offensive to the INTERNATIONAL crowd on WP.

Stew, this isn't the first time you've been negative about the Egyptians. You are certainly entitled to voice your opinion, whatever it may be. Your "opinion poll" and your allusions to the Egyptians being helpless without European management was the crux of your original post.

That position is untenable, and you have shown no evidence of the purported Egyptians ineptitude. The only data you supply is John's point that tourism has shrunk. And even you can't align that to your original premise.

Tourism is down because they had a serious revolution where many died for their freedom. Do you really think it has anything to do with the present labor situation?!? If you are going to question the Egyptian ability to manage the dive ops, please feel free to provide examples.

I can give you an example of an European DM in Sharm who was inept @ guiding and knowing where her divers are. And when she couldn't find her divers, she threw a tantrum @ her guests and Egyptian staff. I have other anecdotal examples of European(how many euro DMs turn up hang over for work) and Egyptian staff being problematic. However I (and most people I know) do not make broadstroke aspersions of the abilities of any nationality (not seriously anyways).

I sincerely think if Egyptians do make you feel so unsettled by their being in control, perhaps you should just leave Egypt and let them follow their destiny.

I also implore you to contain your public disdain of Egyptians on this board. It's becoming tedious and obviously offensive to the INTERNATIONAL crowd on WP.

Actually Drew diving tourism is down due to the shark attacks and not just the revolution. Tourists and especially divers stopped turning up to Sharm when the incidents occurred. Look how that little episode was handled by those in charge. Knee jerk reactions to go out and fish sharks from the ocean, then giving out information that the shark in question had been caught, only for days later for other attacks to happen. My point is made.

If you dislike my views, go read another topic.

Stew

Stew, I have to read this because I'm the mod for this sub-forum. If you don't like being told you are wrong, perhaps you should first check your facts before posting:

1.Your point about tourism being down due to the shark attacks. How is that a failing on the Egyptians? Wasn't shark chummed dives brought over by the foreigner dive operators? The tourists reacted to the shark attacks by cancelling, NOT the Egyptians. How would you have convinced tourists not to cancel?

2.As for the "knee-jerk" reaction of the Egyptians. It's normal for animal control to shoot and kill animals that have attacked people. They put attacking dogs to sleep etc etc... even in the UK.

Furthermore the attacks were done by 2 separate sharks. So after the first one was caught, another attacked. Again I fail to see how the Egyptians failed there? Could anyone (Egyptian, European or Martian) have anticipated another shark would attack?

Stew (and anyone else who shares your view), you are entitled to your views. However, Wetpixel is not a place to cast aspersions about nationalities or ethnic groups. If you can't get around that fact, then please refrain from posting your views on ethnic groups.

Stew, I have to read this because I'm the mod for this sub-forum. If you don't like being told you are wrong, perhaps you should first check your facts before posting:

 

1.Your point about tourism being down due to the shark attacks. How is that a failing on the Egyptians? Wasn't shark chummed dives brought over by the foreigner dive operators? The tourists reacted to the shark attacks by cancelling, NOT the Egyptians. How would you have convinced tourists not to cancel?

2.As for the "knee-jerk" reaction of the Egyptians. It's normal for animal control to shoot and kill animals that have attacked people. They put attacking dogs to sleep etc etc... even in the UK.

Furthermore the attacks were done by 2 separate sharks. So after the first one was caught, another attacked. Again I fail to see how the Egyptians failed there? Could anyone (Egyptian, European or Martian) have anticipated another shark would attack?

 

Stew (and anyone else who shares your view), you are entitled to your views. However, Wetpixel is not a place to cast aspersions about nationalities or ethnic groups. If you can't get around that fact, then please refrain from posting your views on ethnic groups.

This will be my last response to your comments Drew as I started this topic for a purpose other than to let you jump in and ruin yet another thread, which you do all so often. I thought the idea of moderating was just that.

You say " If you dont like being told you are wrong "

Who says that I am wrong. You? You are a forum moderator and not GOD. You should remember that.

I mentioned that tourism was down due to the shark attacks and the revolution, as in your post you gave the impression that tourist numbers were down due only to the revolution. Which is incorrect, so in fact it is actually YOU that is wrong and you should get your facts right before posting.

Stew

Since Stew has said his last piece, I'll assume that this thread has run its course. So I'll close it. Let's move on.