and the 12K era begins....

So the Black Magic 12K camera is announced. How long before this trickles down to a pocket style camera...and will it be housed and do we need it?

Got to love this industry. It never sleeps. You watch, in 2 years from now all the discussion will be on which 8 or 12K cam is being housed with which fantastic new under water optic. 

We ARE living in interesting times indeed.

Going to need a cluster of servers to do any processing.

Interesting claim about processing power needed on the 12K camera's page at BlackMagic:

Quote

As an incredibly efficient next generation codec Blackmagic RAW lets you shoot 12K and edit on a laptop, a capability that simply isn’t possible with other codecs.

Obviously I have not tried it (grin)...

That would certainly be nice.  My 3 year old i7 can barley play 4k.  I haven't tried to edit any.  Maybe there are sampling rates that make editing a lighter workload.

This is a professional product for imax type of movies using the non RAW BMD proprietary codec

Non bayer filter arraw with mix of RGB and white pixels it is not going to matter for home users for a long time

Majority of today top quality movies are shot with ARRI that is not even 4K 

Interestingly H266 copes now with 8K for streaming perhaps can support the cause of this sensor

I really hope someone makes a housing for this.

It would be a killer camera for underwater natural history work at a very reasonable price for what it does.

BRAW + 12k + cheap recording media + editable on a laptop -- what's not to love?

On 7/20/2020 at 2:23 AM, Interceptor121 said:

Non bayer filter arraw with mix of RGB and white pixels it is not going to matter for home users for a long time

For some one who is constantly banging on about color it surprises me that you arent excited for new sensor tech that is showing great color off a big resolution, high frame rate sensor That is also cheap and very editable on normal computers. 

For some one who is constantly banging on about color it surprises me that you arent excited for new sensor tech that is showing great color off a big resolution, high frame rate sensor That is also cheap and very editable on normal computers. 

What’s cheap? This is not going to be cheap nor editable

I have an email here from proav says £8,095 excluding VAT

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14 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

What’s cheap? This is not going to be cheap nor editable

I have an email here from proav says £8,095 excluding VAT

 

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Well cheap is relative isnt it... but currently its the cheapest 12k60 camera. Cheaper than many 4k, 6k and 8k cameras that are sold in the same category. And when the sensor tech filters down into other smaller cameras they will be cheaper again. 
 

As for editable, I guess if you are trying to edit on a banana then you’ll run into problems, but it will be more editable than most footage, on much cheaper computers. Have you tried to edit the footage they have for download? 
 

The 12k footage edits and plays back better than 4k h264 on my 2017 computer. 

39 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Well cheap is relative isnt it... but currently its the cheapest 12k60 camera. Cheaper than many 4k, 6k and 8k cameras that are sold in the same category. And when the sensor tech filters down into other smaller cameras they will be cheaper again. 
 

As for editable, I guess if you are trying to edit on a banana then you’ll run into problems, but it will be more editable than most footage, on much cheaper computers. Have you tried to edit the footage they have for download? 
 

The 12k footage edits and plays back better than 4k h264 on my 2017 computer. 

I don't trust BMD as a company they are not straight

Their BRAW codec is not RAW is just a YCbCr video codec that is fundamentally a copy of ProRes using software compression that is 20+ years old.

The sensor in the GH5s or Zcam is also 44 megapixels however it is no a good idea to use those tiny pixels so they are combined in groups of 4. Once you do the same with this 12K sensor you get exactly 20 megapixels or 6K 

BMD are trying to lure users in their proprietary ecosystem saying that is open source while is not and giving away DaVinci as a freebie but their battle is already lost because real video RAW is already available in the $2,000 Zcam and that is genuine non demosaiced RAW data that I have tested. It still has some way to go but that is the direction of travel not the BMD

Almost any new camera is getting ProRes RAW compatibility and it will become defacto another industry standard

Right now I am looking how the field evolves as all camera companies are struggling to see where to make the next move currently from a media perspective Zcam E2 is my favourite option

I think the specs on this camera are “cool” from a pure technical perspective, but practically I don’t think it’s necessary, even for professional applications, and there are much better cameras for the money.

Man, I can remember shooting with a Hi8 Sony in an Amphibico Buddy housing. I thought it was small too.

mike

On 7/25/2020 at 7:40 PM, rgilkes said:

I think the specs on this camera are “cool” from a pure technical perspective, but practically I don’t think it’s necessary, even for professional applications, and there are much better cameras for the money.

Much better cameras for the money? Such as.....?

What other large sensor camera films 12k at 60 fps? 8k at 110fps?  4k at  220fps? Cameras with those combinations of resolution and frame rate don't exist at any price point, period.

The closest competition is a RED Helium 8k starting  at  $25k and  quickly  climbing to over $30k once you start adding  accessories and storage media. That's the level  this  camera is  competing  at. The camera that Howard Hall uses. A  significantly better camera than was used to film most of Blue Planet II.  

We'll have to wait and see head-to-head  image quality  comparisons, but the RED Helium 8k has  a same-sized sensor,  and only records 8k at 60fps and 4k at 120fps. 

So.. double the frame-rate  at 1/3  the price of a RED Helium 8k with image quality that is being compared with an Alexa? And editable on a Macbook Pro? 

If there's better cameras for $10k, please point me that way, cuz I'll buy them right now.

@dreifish I think you missed the entire beginning of my post. I stated the specs aren’t necessary imo. I’m not saying there’s other cameras with comparative specs for similar or less money. I’m saying there are other cameras that can achieve professional quality images for less money that aren’t focused trying to pad a spec sheet.

On 8/2/2020 at 4:32 AM, rgilkes said:

@dreifish I think you missed the entire beginning of my post. I stated the specs aren’t necessary imo. I’m not saying there’s other cameras with comparative specs for similar or less money. I’m saying there are other cameras that can achieve professional quality images for less money that aren’t focused trying to pad a spec sheet.

I  think that's potentially a fair point, but it really depends on what the requirements are for that particular application. For bigger budget natural history type productions (ala Blue Planet II), on paper, this seems like the camera to go to for underwater, because for those guys the frame rates, resolution and dynamic range are all important considerations. It's a RED replacement/competitor in my book, at 1/3 the price. 

So.. what professional applications are you talking about? Cuz there really aren't that many, as far as underwater filming goes

It would be a BIG housing to house this camera. Not impossible though - bigger cameras then this have been housed but there is no getting away from the fact that it would be a big housing.

It does seem very plausible that BMD will trickle this tech down to its smaller cameras - depends on heat generated by the whole process - but then again that thinking (heat) is about "Current" sensor tech and this camera has a completely different new sensor...so who knows...time will tell. 

Of course there is lots written and many opinions expressed about this camera at this stage of things. Its clear that many people are hung up on the numbers..."12K" when in fact the 12K is a byproduct of what this sensor is and can do...its not about 12K ..its about a new sensor design that can shoot fast frame rates in RGB in 8/6/4K and just so happens to be able to do 12K as well. Forget the number  ..."12" and focus on the new RGB sensor. Thats what this is all about...that new RGB sensor.

Unfortunately, it seems the noise on the 12k is an issue.

And the new Canons kinda steal the show: 

Lots of cameras have heat issues and zcam bmpcc and the new panasonic box cam have fans and heat sinks
I wonder how effective is this inside an underwater housing that has no ventilation. Heat can go on the metal and disperse in water but in warm water this is not that good either
I suppose this issue exists today on red camera but the size is so large that is less of an issue
On the new canon it will definitely get hot
Wonder about sony a7sIII heat dispersion?


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Well, I should have a real world test of heat dispersion of the A7s3 in a Nauticam housing after a lot of diving at the end of November. I forgot about that issue with mirrorless. I have been using/playing with the A7s3 on the surface, no issues, but in a housing, don't know, my shooting style UW has been to power down unless there is a shot, but that was to save battery charge (RX100VII) I think I'll be able/will leave power on for an entire dive with this new setup. I suppose when I get the housing I can record a long video and see whats up in air, then say again in a bathtub. 

46 minutes ago, Whipauee said:

Well, I should have a real world test of heat dispersion of the A7s3 in a Nauticam housing after a lot of diving at the end of November. I forgot about that issue with mirrorless. I have been using/playing with the A7s3 on the surface, no issues, but in a housing, don't know, my shooting style UW has been to power down unless there is a shot, but that was to save battery charge (RX100VII) I think I'll be able/will leave power on for an entire dive with this new setup. I suppose when I get the housing I can record a long video and see whats up in air, then say again in a bathtub. 

I checked the specifications

Without a recorder the bitrates of the Sony A7SIII are pretty low 200 mbps at 60p and 100 mbps at 24p for 422 10bit which is 1/4 of my GH5 (400 mbps at 24/25/30p) I doubt that will overheat as all of this is pretty tame unless there is a serious design issue

The bitrates appear pretty low for any serious log shooting