Sea and Sea YS D3 Problem - LED blinks red with full batteries and won't fire

I think the point is they seem to be pushing S&S rather than INON.  Unfortunately the only data we have to go on is the number of people talking about S&S failures.  It's not just the Chinese YS-D2, we have seen issues with a few YS-D3, YS-03, YS-D2J, I don't recall any YS-01 off the top of my head.  INON failures are not often reported, though there were some complaints from cave divers who tend to us ethem at full power more than other people. 
All strobes will have some failure rate.  It's probably valid to say that INON is the more reliable strobe - this would certainly be the case if their sales volumes were similar.  S&S would have to have a significantly higher sales volume than INON for the failures we are seeing to be to be due to sample size.

I have two relatively new, pristine condition, Sea & Sea D2J strobes, and both failed during my trip to Fiji in Sept 2022. I purchased the strobes just prior to the Pandemic but did not use them much until January 2022 (Maldives). They worked fine when using Duracell rechargeable batteries. For the Fiji trip, I switched to new black Eneloop Pro batteries (stamp appears to indicate 2021 date). After about 4 dives (100 flashes per dive, full manual power with preflash), one strobe turned off without warning and would not turn back on, even a day later. Ultimately, I discovered that tapping the strobe with my knuckles (one time usually) turned strobe back on. Shaking the strobe did not cause it to turn off or on; battery cap terminals were tested to be fine. I do not think the power shut down was due to overheating from multiple flashes because it would not turn on after waiting many hours; only turned on after a tap.

I have two relatively new, pristine condition, Sea & Sea D2J strobes, and both failed during my trip to Fiji in Sept 2022. I purchased the strobes just prior to the Pandemic but did not use them much until January 2022 (Maldives). They worked fine when using Duracell rechargeable batteries. For the Fiji trip, I switched to new black Eneloop Pro batteries (stamp appears to indicate 2021 date). After about 4 dives (100 flashes per dive, full manual power with preflash), one strobe turned off without warning and would not turn back on, even a day later. Ultimately, I discovered that tapping the strobe with my knuckles (one time usually) turned strobe back on. Shaking the strobe did not cause it to turn off or on; battery cap terminals were tested to be fine. I do not think the power shut down was due to overheating from multiple flashes because it would not turn on after waiting many hours; only turned on after a tap.


 
After 20 dives, the second D2J strobe blew its flash tube without warning. No moisture, no flooding, essentially pristine condition. The electronic lights still turned on. I contacted Backscatter and my retailer (Mozaik), who is helping me fix the blown tube. Even though blown flash tubes seem to be common in the D2J strobe, Sea and Sea refused to fix it because warranty time had expired. After the blown tube, I wondered about the powerful Eneloop Pro batteries, so I switched back to the Duracell rechargeable batteries. The "working" strobe seemed to shut down less frequently during a dive (once per dive) and I could quickly restart it with a tap underwater. Later, to my surprise, Backscatter mentioned to me that the black Eneloop Pro batteries are linked to blown flash tubes in the D2J strobe but not the newer D3 strobe that replaced the D2J. Backscatter recommends the white Eneloop batteries in the D2J strobe. Wish I had known this! I asked Sea and Sea about using the black Eneloop Pro batteries in the D2J strobe and they said I should continue to use the Eneloop Pro batteries. I just sent the intermittently working D2J strobe to Backscatter for diagnostics. Needless to say, I am very disappointed that two new Sea and Sea D2J strobes failed just beyond the warranty period. I am curious to learn more about the Eneloop Pro batteries and problems with the D2J strobe.

13 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

I only use eneloop pro and in two years haven’t had an issue
In my opinion the strobe is not well designed for continuous use at full power
So in warm water with multiple continuous shots at full power you are at risk
The strobe flat design and plastic materials do not help heat dissipation is an inherit issue and for me if you shoot a full frame camera f/11 and smaller for wide angle this is not the right strobe
What camera have you got?

I have a Sony A6400 mirrorless camera, so not full frame.  I have been setting the TWO D2J strobes at manual, full power, preflash to mainly shoot wide angle closeups (120° diffuser).  I suspect you are correct about overheating after multiple shots.  I thought the strobe would simply shut down for a while if it got too hot, not blow the flash tube. I did not have any problems when using Duracell rechargeable batteries on my previous month long trip to Maldives.  I suspect the Eneloop Pro batteries may be too powerful and enable the strobes to recovery too quickly, thus facilitating overheating.  I will switch to Eneloop white batteries, and will reduce the GN from 32 to 22, and maybe increase ISO a bit.  I typically shoot near f8 and f11 at 100 or 200 ISO, and take ˜100 shots during a 50-60 min dive (I may need to take fewer).  Why does full frame versus APS-C make a difference?

FYI, below is text from the D2J manual, leading me to think the strobe would automatically shut down to protect itself if it got too hot.  This never happened.  The strobe that simply turned off never came on (even after 1 day) until I tapped the strobe case with knuckles.  The other strobe blew the flash tube.  Both strobes were rarely used prior to this trip.

"If the product emits the FULL emission of light in more than 20 continuous bursts, an internal protective circuit will be activated to prevent the reflector in the strobe from overheating, and the strobe will be placed in standby mode (with the READY/TTL lamp lights out) for at least 20 seconds. If this occurs, allow this product to cool naturally for at least ten minutes."

Thanks for your comments.

The 120 degrees diffuser is not particularly useful use the 100

Why are shooting at full power? You are at f/11 you have two stops to go counting the diffuser

I rarely shoot the strobe at full power it is almost never required if you balance ambient light

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, I will reduce power to GN 22.  I also use the Fantasea UWL-09 wide angle wet lens which reportedly has 130° view.  That is why I was using the 120 diffuser, but maybe the 100 is sufficient with two strobes.  I never tried the 100 diffuser. 

Thanks, I will reduce power to GN 22.  I also use the Fantasea UWL-09 wide angle wet lens which reportedly has 130° view.  That is why I was using the 120 diffuser, but maybe the 100 is sufficient with two strobes.  I never tried the 100 diffuser. 

Basically, if you are shooting CFWA and need wider light coverage, the solution is to pull the strobes back, not fit wider diffusers.

2 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

Basically, if you are shooting CFWA and need wider light coverage, the solution is to pull the strobes back, not fit wider diffusers.

The 120 degrees diffuser has been tested by various users and it is not really helpful it softens the lights but does not make it wider and take away more power from your strobes

The 100 degrees works well and take less than one stop away

The quality of light of the bulb in the YS-D2J is amazing for the price

45 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

The quality of light of the bulb in the YS-D2J is amazing for the price

Right until it blows up and you have to pay 80% of a new strobe cost for a repair. That game of one-upmanship that Sea & Sea has engaged in with Inon in recent years, driving the same tubes harder and harder with bigger capacitor banks, really has led them down a wrong path. 

21 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

Right until it blows up and you have to pay 80% of a new strobe cost for a repair. That game of one-upmanship that Sea & Sea has engaged in with Inon in recent years, driving the same tubes harder and harder with bigger capacitor banks, really has led them down a wrong path. 

It blows up if you shoot it at full power. I don't. The benefit of shooting a smaller sensor with superior optics is that I do not go past f/10 at wide angle and big scenes I shoot at f/5.6. Add the diffuser f/8 I have other 4 stops until I hit the limit. So other than sunbursts and big scenes I am at most at 50% power

Shoot the strobes at full power the reflector will heat up and fry the bulb

But seeing as how the increased power is the selling point of YS-D2 and YS-D3, why spend money on them if you can't actually use it? Why not get YS-D1s, Z-240s, or D-200s at half the cost? Me, I shoot Retra Pros with APS-C, and while I don't use the full power all the time, it does come in handy on occasion, and I like feeling safe when doing full-power dumps every few seconds or half-power at 3fps.

As stated above in the quote from the D2J manual, Sea and Sea is misleading photographers into thinking they can safely take 20 rapid fire shots at full power with the D2J and the only consequence is that it will turn off until it cools down.  They need to warn photographers that rapid firing at full power can lead to overheating and a blown flash tube.  In my case, I did not think I was firing rapidly but I was taking 2 shots at full power while making slight manual f stop adjustments in between the 2 shots.  I will now reduce the GN and switch to the 100 diffuser, assuming I can fix the D2J.  FYI, I spent many years using the Nikonos SB105 strobe, which required patience while it reloaded, but it was very reliable.  

5 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

But seeing as how the increased power is the selling point of YS-D2 and YS-D3, why spend money on them if you can't actually use it? Why not get YS-D1s, Z-240s, or D-200s at half the cost? Me, I shoot Retra Pros with APS-C, and while I don't use the full power all the time, it does come in handy on occasion, and I like feeling safe when doing full-power dumps every few seconds or half-power at 3fps.

Not really I have two Z240 and the power and quality of light is not there. The strobe ergonomics are also way over complicated

The fact is that you can shoot the YS-D2J at full power but not more than a few shots and you need to give time between the shots, yet when set at f/22 is actually stronger than the Z240 so you have peak power when you need it. I also do not like the two tubes cross of the Z240 and the light is coolers

When you shoot at 3fps you are not shooting at full power even if the strobes say they are ready

In order to fully charge a strobe (not 80% fully charged) you may need to wait way more than 2 seconds

So if you shoot at say 3 fps you should shoot at 1/4 power to ensure you can take a series of shot before the capacitor drains the YS-D2 does that just fine

The heat develops when you take full power shot at say a few seconds away the capacitor is fully charged and discharged for over half a minute

The reason why the strobe heats up is not because the bulb or the reflector are poor but because the strobe is made of plastic which is an insulant and the strobe front is flat so the heat is very high in a small space

Retra are made of metal and they are built with the bulb going forward and do not have a flat front all of this improves heat dissipation

The flip side of the coin is weight and power they are not more powerful than other strobes so the entire design is well balanced on all fronts

If I was a full frame user requiring small apertures I would look at retra seacam or one UW strobes which better work under prolonged stress

An APSC or MFT camera does not require such strobes

4 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

When you shoot at 3fps you are not shooting at full power even if the strobes say they are ready 

In order to fully charge a strobe (not 80% fully charged) you may need to wait way more than 2 seconds

So if you shoot at say 3 fps you should shoot at 1/4 power to ensure you can take a series of shot before the capacitor drains the YS-D2 does that just fine 

I'm not shooting full power at 3fps, but I have tested it with a strobe in a plastic tub of water, and at half power, with supercharger and Eneloop Pro batteries, I was getting a continuous series of equally exposed frames with the camera drive mode set to continuous-low. At three-quarters or full power, the brightness dropped off after the first frame, but at half-power it was fine. I didn't push it past a dozen or so shots, but that's well past the point where the capacitors would've drained.

8 hours ago, Barmaglot said:

I'm not shooting full power at 3fps, but I have tested it with a strobe in a plastic tub of water, and at half power, with supercharger and Eneloop Pro batteries, I was getting a continuous series of equally exposed frames with the camera drive mode set to continuous-low. At three-quarters or full power, the brightness dropped off after the first frame, but at half-power it was fine. I didn't push it past a dozen or so shots, but that's well past the point where the capacitors would've drained.

I think you are getting a bit confused

75% on the retra is the position just below 100% not 3/4 of the dial. If you fire at 75% you have 25% left so you need another 40% which as per specs takes 1 second

To shoot 3 fps and have 3 shots you need to be at the notch between 25 and 50 which is 33%. The strobe should fire 3 shots fine and start dropping frame rate from shot 4

This is possible with any strobe including mine as you are shooting far away from the maximum power so it will take a large number of shots to build heat in fact 3x but at that point the camera is not shooting 3 fps anymore as the batteries can't keep up

I had a guy shooting the YS-D2J at 25% which is 1/8 of power or 11 on the strobe and shooting 7 fps it was working fine for short phases with no problems of any sort he worked on the boat for a seasons taking millions of shot

However you are taking say 5-6 shots at lower power and then waiting completely different scenario to full power wait full recharge fire again for 20 times. The latter fries the strobe

Beside no strobe full recharges in 1 or 1.5 seconds the last bit from 80% onwards take longer and depends on the batteries the strobe will say ready but not output full power either

6 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

I think you are getting a bit confused

75% on the retra is the position just below 100% not 3/4 of the dial. If you fire at 75% you have 25% left so you need another 40% which as per specs takes 1 second 

To shoot 3 fps and have 3 shots you need to be at the notch between 25 and 50 which is 33%. The strobe should fire 3 shots fine and start dropping frame rate from shot 4 

I'm not confused, and I'm well aware of that. What I am saying is, in my experience, a Retra Pro (not X), equipped with a supercharger and loaded with eight Eneloop Pro batteries, set into into manual mode, with the power knob set to '50 (+2)', two clicks under full power, and a Sony A6300 with UW-Technics converter as the triggering source, is able to keep up with the camera set to continuous-low (3fps) for a dozen-plus shots, without dropping exposure levels to a noticeable degree. This indicates that eight Eneloop Pro batteries are able to supply enough current for three half-power dumps every second, i.e. 225 joules per second (assuming that each 50% flash uses 75 out of the strobe's rated 150 joules) plus circuitry losses. Charging up to full power takes longer than double of zero-to-half, but still, firing full-power dumps out of a Retra Pro and supercharger every 2.5-3 seconds is quite realistic. By manufacturer's specification, it takes a Retra Pro with 8 batteries 1.5s to charge up to 80%, 1.3s for the newer Retra Pro X. Prime models with their smaller capacitor banks are faster (1s and 0.8s respectively), so I assume that the primary limiting factor is the current supplied by the batteries.

I'm not confused, and I'm well aware of that. What I am saying is, in my experience, a Retra Pro (not X), equipped with a supercharger and loaded with eight Eneloop Pro batteries, set into into manual mode, with the power knob set to '50 (+2)', two clicks under full power, and a Sony A6300 with UW-Technics converter as the triggering source, is able to keep up with the camera set to continuous-low (3fps) for a dozen-plus shots, without dropping exposure levels to a noticeable degree. This indicates that eight Eneloop Pro batteries are able to supply enough current for three half-power dumps every second, i.e. 225 joules per second (assuming that each 50% flash uses 75 out of the strobe's rated 150 joules) plus circuitry losses. Charging up to full power takes longer than double of zero-to-half, but still, firing full-power dumps out of a Retra Pro and supercharger every 2.5-3 seconds is quite realistic. By manufacturer's specification, it takes a Retra Pro with 8 batteries 1.5s to charge up to 80%, 1.3s for the newer Retra Pro X. Prime models with their smaller capacitor banks are faster (1s and 0.8s respectively), so I assume that the primary limiting factor is the current supplied by the batteries.

On 9/11/2022 at 6:27 PM, JustinO said:

Hi all, 

Given the issues with Sea & Sea strobes some people have had with them, I thought I'd start a page on the issue I am having with the newest model (Ys-D3 / Lightning), just in case anyone has had a similar problem or ideas on what it might be. I've been in touch with Kevin at Aquaphot, and he's asked for some technical information from Sea&Sea; I'll update this as more is learnt, and once we fix the issue.   I have a pair of Mk-1s, that have not had the 2020 firmware update (as I don't use TTL).  They have done four trips - I would estimate about 100 dives max, and about 2000 frames max taken. 

 The issue I have been having is as follows. 

Last month, I noticed one strobe wasn't working on a dive - the "ready" LED was blinking red about twice a second, and would not fire, although the focus light operated normally. It blinked red every time I turned the unit on, beeped once, and although I heard the capacitors charging, the steady red LED (that shows when it is ready to dump full capacity) no longer appeared. This happened in whatever mode I put the unit into (I only shoot manual with F/O cables),and in and out of the water.  I could not find a reason for this in my manual (version EZpN).  A web search found a different manual from S&S Japan (version YAvX), which describes the issue as "there is no remaining battery power".  Well, that was incorrect, as the (fully charged) batteries operated the other unit perfectly, and they are new Eneloop Pro that are the only batteries I have used with the strobes- so 2000 shots. I got the same issue with a fresh set, of Eneloops, as well as a set of new Duracell non-rechargeables.  Swapping the end cap over doesn't solve the issue either - the other strobe fires whichever end cap or battery set I use. 

I examined the unit for any leaks (dry in both the battery compartment and sync cord) and put the unit to bed.  Since my return, I've been trying to figure out what the issue is.  A "cooldown" without batteries hasn't helped. I am meticulous (my family would argue OCD) with my preparation, and following the manual - for example, I have never shot the strobes pointing directly downwards, and have very rarely found a need to use them on full power - so overheating is unlikely, and the strobe isn't showing it's locked out (blinking red and green LED).   I also have test fired the units monthly to ensure the electronics remain in top shape, as recommended. 

 

I wondered if the terminals were dirty, and the unit was failing to draw enough power to load the capacitors.  I've wiped all terminals (and those of the batteries) with a dry cotton bud in case of any o-ring grease, and now I get a different symptom. Now when I turn it on, it beeps twice in quick succession (unusual) and the LED lights solid -briefly! Just as I try to test fire it, it starts blinking red twice a second again.  

 

Kevin mentioned that "On a previous model this was due to low batteries being used, this could kick the circuit into a 'battery protection mode', & the strobe then needs a system reboot to get it working again, but this may not be the cause, or the remedy for this particular model."

 

Any ideas what's going on, or thoughts on what I could do would be appreciated.

So here is a final update to the original issue for anyone who may experience the same.  S&S have investigated, and I assume they have concluded it is a fault with the unit. Based on the nearly new condition of the unit, they have kindly replaced it under warranty, even though it's time-barred. 

My thanks to Kevin at Aquaphot for his initial follow up, and to Sea & Sea UK for resolving this.  A happy outcome, and one that bucks the trend of other's experience with S&S customer service. 

So disconcerting to read this, since my INON preference is not available at this time. Back to figuring out what strobes for the next build.