Sony A7RV freezing during super macro photography

2 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

you probably want to reproduce similar light levels if possible.  If you take a correctly exposed shot diving where you experience the problem ( no strobes - just meter to get a correctly exposed scene) you can look up the EXIF and see that you are close to the lighting strength when testing.   Indoor lighting is usually close to the sort of light levels when diving.

Thanks, yes, I tried to recreate the light levels earlier when I tested, mainly by just closing the curtains. Your suggestion makes sense although as I said above, in about 300 shots (rig setup as for underwater), I couldn’t reproduce the problem. I will have another go tomorrow.

cheers,

Paul

9 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

The Sigma MC11 does not support CAF with any lens only SAF is supported and frankly why would you need CAF on a fisheye? 

Maybe not officially supported but it does work very well in AF-C. Let's not derail this thread please.

I have no indication that this is triggering the issue.

Paul, I have a sense that the freeze occurs when the AF-C is hunting between subjects (incl particles) which are not well lit, low contrast, and with high variability in DoF (ie glass of dome vs 50cm behind). I have had this issue 4-5 times (out of the tens of thousands of shots over last couple of years), but everytime it was in these conditions, in very dark environment (caves).

I believe this is why you are not able to reproduce it above water

But then I may be wrong and it could simply be a memory card issue and my conclusion from above is just a result of spurrious correlation from the low number of freezes I got. Just not enough data points

Maybe not officially supported but it does work very well in AF-C. Let's not derail this thread please.

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

Then you wonder why your camera freezes?


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This response is not adding to the discussion, waterpixel is merely relaying his experience.  Please consider that the poster is only trying to add to the discussion and please offer constructive responses.

19 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

This response is not adding to the discussion, waterpixel is merely relaying his experience.  Please consider that the poster is only trying to add to the discussion and please offer constructive responses.

He said my camera is also freezing
Sigma mc11 and sigma 15mm caf
This combination is not supported by sigma the lens itself is not on their own compatibility list and is not used as intended which is SAF

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/faq/11799/

So it is likely to freeze any camera it is attached too due to misuse of the lens and adapter
In effect his problem has a different explanation to the one of the op who has a native lens


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15 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

He said my camera is also freezing
Sigma mc11 and sigma 15mm caf
This combination is not supported by sigma the lens itself is not on their own compatibility list and is not used as intended which is SAF

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/faq/11799/

So it is likely to freeze any camera it is attached too due to misuse of the lens and adapter
In effect his problem has a different explanation to the one of the op who has a native lens


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Yes and the response you provided here is fine, but just saying what you did is not constructive and does not come across well in text on an internet forum.

 Rather than say in effect  "you are wrong"  provide some context, you will note the OP stated that he was aware it is not officially supported but it worked for him and went on to elaborate on what he thinks might be the cause based on this.  It's not the first time people have reported a non officially supported feature  is working for them.  There may be times it does not work and that was noted and it is merely the sharing of experience.

Yes and the response you provided here is fine, but just saying what you did is not constructive and does not come across well in text on an internet forum.
 Rather than say in effect  "you are wrong"  provide some context, you will note the OP stated that he was aware it is not officially supported but it worked for him and went on to elaborate on what he thinks might be the cause based on this.  It's not the first time people have reported a non officially supported feature  is working for them.  There may be times it does not work and that was noted and it is merely the sharing of experience.

7 minutes ago, Interceptor121 said:

Adapted lenses behave very different to native lenses
And even if your lens worked using it in an unsupported manner is not a good idea
Sigma is quite clear only single af is supported and there is a reason for that
Going back to the op there are reports of freeze with the R series and with several lenses
There are some good forums and facebook groups that are sony centric is a good idea to look there and then if you find nothing see if this has to do with the flash trigger
Putting a camera in a housing should never result in more issues than the camera lens already had


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I'm not disputing any of this, it's all good information and advice, the only reason I weighed in was related to the original one line response and how it came across.  If you respond to posts like you have quoted above it's all good.

7 hours ago, waterpixel said:

Maybe not officially supported but it does work very well in AF-C. Let's not derail this thread please.

I have no indication that this is triggering the issue.

Paul, I have a sense that the freeze occurs when the AF-C is hunting between subjects (incl particles) which are not well lit, low contrast, and with high variability in DoF (ie glass of dome vs 50cm behind). I have had this issue 4-5 times (out of the tens of thousands of shots over last couple of years), but everytime it was in these conditions, in very dark environment (caves).

I believe this is why you are not able to reproduce it above water

 

But then I may be wrong and it could simply be a memory card issue and my conclusion from above is just a result of spurrious correlation from the low number of freezes I got. Just not enough data points

Alex, thanks, your description of the problem is very close to what seems to happen. Despite the number of times it has frozen, it’s difficult to explain the exact sequence of events leading up to it, but I know for sure that one second I have taken a bunch of pics, the next while still trying to focus, the green box seems to flicker a bit and then freeze.

It has been difficult replicating this top side cause the subjects I’m shooting are static. I’ve used track focus and move the subject around so the camera is working to stay focused, but it’s no where near as complicated as underwater. I’ve just ordered a second Sony cfexpress card so will use those on future dives. My next trip is wide angle in May but I’m almost certain I won’t see a repeat of the problem with that.

Thanks again all.

Paul

5 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Adapted lenses behave very different to native lenses
And even if your lens worked using it in an unsupported manner is not a good idea
Sigma is quite clear only single af is supported and there is a reason for that
Going back to the op there are reports of freeze with the R series and with several lenses
There are some good forums and facebook groups that are sony centric is a good idea to look there and then if you find nothing see if this has to do with the flash trigger
Putting a camera in a housing should never result in more issues than the camera lens already had


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Thanks Interceptor121, I will do some more digging to find these groups - I’ve found a few discussions via Google, but no solutions to date… if you come across any please share them. Thanks, Paul

One other thing to mention is that I’ve always written to both memory cards simultaneously in RAW format - same SD cards - for both my A7III and A7RV. I’ve not been able to replicate the problem top side today and am taking the camera and lens into the Sony service centre.

One other thing to mention is that I’ve always written to both memory cards simultaneously in RAW format - same SD cards - for both my A7III and A7RV. I’ve not been able to replicate the problem top side today and am taking the camera and lens into the Sony service centre.

1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

This is an important detail your problem may be there
First some SD card hygiene
1. Never ever delete a single file until you copy all on your computer
2. Format the card in the camera fresh each time
3. Back up to card is only possible with two matched cards same brand same speed or you may have issues
4. Back up to card is normally a waste of time as if you flood the camera both will die and you just make the camera less responsive
Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can


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Quite intersteing POV.
As professional photographer (real estate, food, events, portraits etc... in addition to UW Photo)) i have ALWAYS recorded my RAWs simultaneously on both CF cards in the past, and today SD cards on my Sonys. Just in case on card would corrupt. Nothing to do with flooding because flooding on land is likely to never happen.

Wondering your points 3 and 4 then.  Would be great if you could elaborate with not only UW in mind but also land photo.

Quite intersteing POV. As professional photographer (real estate, food, events, portraits etc... in addition to UW Photo)) i have ALWAYS recorded my RAWs simultaneously on both CF cards in the past, and today SD cards on my Sonys. Just in case on card would corrupt. Nothing to do with flooding because flooding on land is likely to never happen.

Wondering your points 3 and 4 then.  Would be great if you could elaborate with not only UW in mind but also land photo.

 

Considering that in 30+ years I have not had a single card fail my approach is to have one card for photos and one for video

Failure of a camera is possible failure of a card (provided you follow guidelines) extremely rare so not worth doing things that put the camera under pressure

In addition doing back up requires matching cards (several discussions with technical teams of card producers on that)

Most people back up on a cheaper slower card and eventually lock up the camera

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1 hour ago, Interceptor121 said:

This is an important detail your problem may be there
First some SD card hygiene
1. Never ever delete a single file until you copy all on your computer
2. Format the card in the camera fresh each time
3. Back up to card is only possible with two matched cards same brand same speed or you may have issues
4. Back up to card is normally a waste of time as if you flood the camera both will die and you just make the camera less responsive
Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can


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1. I am an IT guy so have at least 4 other copies of the files before I delete the originals!
2. The SD cards are all the same brand and size and always formatted in camera before every dive trip.
3. I write to both cards in case one were to fail, for any reason, but not really because of flooding. I try to backup the SD cards whilst on dive trips, but a second card provides extra redundancy.

1. I am an IT guy so have at least 4 other copies of the files before I delete the originals!
2. The SD cards are all the same brand and size and always formatted in camera before every dive trip.
3. I write to both cards in case one were to fail, for any reason, but not really because of flooding. I try to backup the SD cards whilst on dive trips, but a second card provides extra redundancy.
 

Just now, Interceptor121 said:

When did one of your card fail individually the last time?


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Never, but unless there are real benefits to NOT writing to both, I figure the redundancy costs me nothing. That said, I’d be willing to sacrifice the extra protection (however unlikely) if writing to a single card meant the camera not freezing. I’ve already upgraded to cfexpress cards (both Sony Tough cards) and will definitely give this a go on my next trip. 

Never, but unless there are real benefits to NOT writing to both, I figure the redundancy costs me nothing. That said, I’d be willing to sacrifice the extra protection (however unlikely) if writing to a single card meant the camera not freezing. I’ve already upgraded to cfexpress cards (both Sony Tough cards) and will definitely give this a go on my next trip. 

2 hours ago, Interceptor121 said:

Don’t take the camera to sony if you can’t reproduce the issue. Open a ticket only when you can

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I suspect Sony will just saying Nothing To See Here, Folks. 

I've had a freezing issue on my A7c with the 90mm and diopter, but only once with underwater so far... It was on an inon-67 which I have had for a mere 9months, but had it freeze once if I recall and never had a freeze on an inon-167.

However, on land I also use the A7c with 90mm macro and a Raynox DCR-250 diopter (a great and inexpensive diopter if you excuse the looks) which has caused the camera to freeze on a handful of occasions while shooting bugs and other wild macro subjects over the past 2 years.  I usually use DMF or AF-S with back button focusing for macro with the lens limited to 29-50cm.  I also you the old rocking method to regain focus and cannot remember the issue with these shots.

It's not a huge issue and generally hasn't happened while firing a stream of shots, it is usually the first focus shot or when I or the subject moves and I need to refocus.

Being in IT I use standard IT solution 3 - Switch it off, wait a few seconds and turn it on again.  It is best to turn it on without a diopter on I found.

I also find the Raynox need to be spotless and try to aviod any vinyetting with the raynox or the lens/camera af gets confused.

So would suggets it is not down SD cards or housing or even solely an uw issue but maybe a confussion of the af system.

As a side note when the lens limiter isn't set on I cannot remember this happening from memory, although AF takes longer. 

It doesn't deter me from the system or lens, as nothing is perfect.