Sea&Sea strobes misfiring

Thanks Chris.

Red eye is off. This WL test is with the strobe set to TTL correct? I'll try in all 3 settings

While the strobe is in TTL at a lowest output setting the strobe flash fires and syncs with camera. with WL on or off. while in off position it fires minimally and in the on position it fires brightly.  At the higher setting (0.7+) it fires minimally while WL is off and with WL is on at high output the strobe fires but does not sync with the camera at all.  

With the strobe is set to no preflash (1 lightning bolt) minumum setting  strobe flashes mimimally, greater than 0.7 and strobe fires, but doesn't sync. 

with WL on and no preflash  strobe does not sync with hi or low outputs

with strobe set to preflash (double bolts) at minimum setting WL off and strobe flashes, but very minimal light in picture. with WL on strobe does not flash at all. And with high strobe output  WL off strobe flashes but doesn't sync and with WL off strobe does not flash.

hope this what you were asking

Thanks again

Sorry, you're not quite clear - what happens when the camera is set to WL on, and the strobe is set to single lighting bolt? This is the setting for manual control of the flash power - the trigger flashes once, and the strobe picks that up and flashes at the power level set by the control knob.

The fact that with WL off and the strobe set to double bolts it flashes, and WL on it doesn't means that with WL off, the trigger fires twice with the strobe ignoring the first pulse, and firing on the second, and with WL on, there is only one triggering pulse, the strobe ignores it, and waits for the second pulse that never comes.

Also, what is your shutter speed when you're testing? A6xxx can't sync faster than 1/160s.

Sorry. With the strobe set to no preflash (1 lightning bolt) with WL on or off  the strobe fires, but does not sync with camera using 0.7+strobe output. Using 0.7 or less the strobe fires and syncs to the camera.

To your second point -  the strobe in double bolts  with High or low output does fire when WL is off but doesn't sync to the camera. when WL is on it doesn't flash or sync with camera in high or low output. 

Shutter speed is 1/100

Thanks Barmaglot

I thought you had established that TTL was working earlier in this thread and you were having trouble with manual flash. I'll interpret your test sequence here:

WL -off:  Test for sync at low power output (<0.7) and at high power output( >0.7)  Strobe set in single lightning bolt.

next repeat the tests with double lightning bolt

WL-on:  Repeat the above set of tests in both single and double lighting bolt.

Summary

Now to interpret that data - first it only syncs below 0.7 power no matter the setting in single bolt mode.  In double bolt mode it never syncs and with or fires with WL on.

This indicates that with WL on the trigger is only putting out a single flash. and the strobe ignores the first flash as it should on double bolt setting.

In theory with WL off you should have two flashes from the trigger and at high power you see the flash fire in double bolt mode which seems to indicate it is putting out two flashes but it still doesn't sync.

What should happen with WL off is that it emits two flashes and the YS-D1 should ignore the first one in double bolt, but it only does so at low power.

One question can you confirm that you are testing with both flashes and you have confirmed that both flashes either sync or do not sync? So in other words both flashes behave the same which indicates looking for a problem in the trigger or camera.

Next thing to try is I think - IF you have a flash you can use in the hotshoe of the camera, try all of this again using that flash to trigger the strobes.  This is test if there is a setting off somewhere in the camera.  If you could fill out a table like I used that would be easier to interpret.

Hi ChrisRoss.

Haha, I produced the same spreadsheet last night to send. Yes both strobes are acting the same. 

"In theory with WL off you should have two flashes and at high power you get the flash to fire in double bolt mode which seems to indicate it is putting out two flashes but it still doesn't sync." Doesn't this mean that my camera doesn't use a preflash? because on the single bolt it works fine, but again only at low power. 

As to Pavel's comments, we've established that the converter is working (2 bolts on screen). however is watching the led's during firing there is only a single flash with the WL on or off. 

As to this comment, I'm not sure I understand what he's asking. "he has to set a single flash (M mode) by WL command and be sure visually that it is a single flash. If this step is solved, let's go to the next step" 

Thanks

sorry, In watching the leds, not is watching

9 hours ago, toque said:

Hi ChrisRoss.

Haha, I produced the same spreadsheet last night to send. Yes both strobes are acting the same. 

"In theory with WL off you should have two flashes and at high power you get the flash to fire in double bolt mode which seems to indicate it is putting out two flashes but it still doesn't sync." Doesn't this mean that my camera doesn't use a preflash? because on the single bolt it works fine, but again only at low power. 

 

Maybe, but at low power it can do at best two half power flashes and at 0.7 power it probably drains the capacitor enough to have the strobe not fire the second flash.  The LED trigger may be different but with my mini flash I use on the Olympus I can't see the pre-flash separated from the main flash.  It is odd that sync works at less than 0.7 power.  I read your results as the strobe emitting a double flash with WL mode off and the failure to fire with WL on is because the YS-D1 only sees one flash from the trigger and is waiting for the second flash before it fires.

Are you able to repeat the test using a hotshoe mounted flash as the trigger instead of the UWT trigger?

Thats a good point. I'll have to see if I can find someone that has a land based flash. I only use this camera underwater , so never had a need for one. 

I was hoping Pavel would jump in with some more diagnostics that he mentioned earlier in the thread. 

Do you know what he meant by: "he has to set a single flash (M mode) by WL command and be sure visually that it is a single flash. If this step is solved, let's go to the next step" I understand this as setting the strobe to single flash bolt with the WL on. If thats the case then yes it still is a single flash. I think mostly what I told was you can see the 2 flashes when the LED fires. 

I wish I had better knowledge how these things work. I have to say I'm  little out of my base on this. 

A little more confusion now. 

I have an YS-D2 with a burned lens that I don't use anymore. I ran it through the test and it didn't fire at all. It worked the last time I tried it. I'll have to confirm it works with another camera, but I wonder if that helps diagnose anything. or just muddies the water

20 minutes ago, toque said:

A little more confusion now. 

I have an YS-D2 with a burned lens that I don't use anymore. I ran it through the test and it didn't fire at all. It worked the last time I tried it. I'll have to confirm it works with another camera, but I wonder if that helps diagnose anything. or just muddies the water

Probably doesn't mean anything YS-D2  seem to break and the burned lens is the first sign, so the fact it doesn't work is not related.

You've already set Manual flash mode by turning on WL and you seem to be getting a single flash there as far as the diagnostics go.  You could PM Pavel to ask him what the next step is.  Have you checked the selector on the UWT trigger is set to the right number.  The manual will outline what it should be set to for a YS-D1.

As far as I saw in the previous photos, both symbols "Flash" are on the screen, it means the HotShoe protocol is working. Picture must be the following:

 I advice to exclude potential influence of some parts of the system, to clear the test.
1) Remove the trigger from the housing. 

2) Remove the fiber optical cable from the system. Yo will fire by the one LED directly to the strobe sensor.

3) Set strobe knob to "1 flash" position (mode without pre-flashes ignore). So, each incoming pulse will be repeated by the strobe, no any ignores. Don't touch this knob anymore during the test.

4) Switch ON the "WL" mode by the menu, and don't touch it anymore during the test.

5) Set only the "Mechanical shutter" type by menu. This is important. Don't use an electronic shutter (1-st curtain electronic, or fully electronic shutter).

6) Fire by the the LED directly into the strobe sensor. Look at the flash effect on the wall. Each next flash Increase the flash intensity by the second knob, from minimum to maximum, step by step. If you have any problems with manual flash lighting at any step, let us know.

good morning and thank you

I'll let you know what happens

Just to clear on line #3 "Set strobe knob to the mode without pre-flashes ignore" you mean set strobe to the single lightning bolt, correct?

thanks again

Oh wow!

The strobe fired perfectly every time! So I guess this means that the fiber cables are bad? If so thats amazing that they both went bad at the same time? Any recommendations on new cables?

thank you again

26 minutes ago, toque said:

Oh wow!

The strobe fired perfectly every time! So I guess this means that the fiber cables are bad? If so thats amazing that they both went bad at the same time? Any recommendations on new cables?

 

thank you again

Yes, of course, fiber cable model and condition is very important for the LED systems, especially for TTL control. Fiber cable for these aims must have a high transmission index (low attenuation).

Also, fiber cables at our underwater market often have few broken threads inside, even new cables from factory. Old or hardly used cables have few damaged threads guaranteed. Your cables may be not broken yet, but maybe cheap model, have significant attenuation etc. You have to change them to new.

Look at the the User Manual of TTL-Converter, it says that fiber cables must be "613-core" type only, and few compatible cable models are listed in Specification.

Currently few companies produce 613 fiber cables: Nauticam, Sea&Sea, HowShot and others. But the core is the same Asahi Kasei (Japan), it has 613 threads inside. When you buy the cable, read carefully the description, check if it is really 613 type.

Hey toque

As Pavel explains, the type and the positioning of fibre cables is, as I found out, really important. They need to be the right type and positioned centrally in front of the sensor. This is especially the case for TTL.

That said, making your own cables is easy and seriously inexpensive when compared to the usual "shop bought" ones. There is quite a thread in WP on how to make them and where to get the cable. You'll see that some time back we did a bulk order for WP members

It costs about $7.50 a metre for the 613-core Asahi type. Connectors are about $5 or so each. So for $50 you can make an awful lot of cables!

You can get the cable here: 

If you want to give it a try but get stuck reading the previous threads, just should and I can help you through the process. 

1 hour ago, toque said:

Just to clear on line #3 "Set strobe knob to the mode without pre-flashes ignore" you mean set strobe to the single lightning bolt, correct?

Yes, "single lighting bolt" position. In this mode the strobe answers to each incoming pulse, without any ignore.

Thank you again Pavel, Really appreciate your customer service.

And everyone else thank you of coarse too for all your imputs. Hope I run into you at a dive site someday. 

Tim