More Crowding in Lembeh

Just wondering what those places may be ????

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Errr I've already said too much;)

I am not sure why there is such a strong sentiment against liveaboard in Lembeh in various posts in this thread. Personally I think they are great. This past week was the first time I was in Lembeh. I have been thinking about going there for a couple of years but one reason that put me off Lembeh was KBR. Everytime I tried to contact them via agent or directly through Asian Dive Expo, they came off as being incredibly arrogant and rather snooty especially to asian customer. I am sure their dive operators are top notch but their management just left a lot to be desired.  I am glad that I don't have to deal with them when going to Lembeh as there are plenty of alternatives now, liveaboard as well as other resorts. Aqua One liveaboard owner is in a process of buidling another resort there. The Agressor Fleet is rumored to be talking to KBR about putting one of the Agressor boat there.

The only bad thing I supposed is that diving there might get a bit crowded (main reason I don't dive in Thailand much nowaday) but with over 30 sites in the area, I don't think it would be all that bad except for the mandarin dive, I suppose.

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Well crowds are only part of the reason. Think about it. A liveaboard can stack 12-16 divers on a site, say Jahir. You have 2-3 guides showing off all they can find and inevitably some sort of harassing of the sealife for the photographers will occur (doesn't matter which resort or liveaboard, it happens). And most of the guests will be photographers. So all the life suddenly is harassed and hides from the marauding group. And the next boat comes and suffers. With land based resorts, they limit the damage to 6-8 divers per boat. It's a matter of numbers and attrition. And who doesn't want a dive site all to themselves, which use to be the case in the 90s when Lembeh was still not "in" yet.

Competition is great. Now KBR is cheaper and better because of Lembeh Resort and the others around it. They even offer EAN finally after 9 years of promising it. Ok the pool is abit overboard but hey it's now mainstream.

As for KBR snobbery, well, they were the first real resort there (before that, it was Bitung hotel and your own compressor from Manado, not fun!) Also I think many resorts have a tendency to believe the fallacy that asian divers (save the japanese) would not pay the prices they charge the "gringos". I mean that's why all the ops in Manado started offering boats to Lembeh, because going to stay and dive at KBR was too "expensive" for many. Who doesn't know that many of the asian resorts have different price scales for asians and europeans/japanese/americans except KBR. They had the monopoly of lembeh until Lembeh Resort started. Their business model was great while it lasted but competition shook them up. So approach them now and see their attitude change.

Well crowds are only part of the reason. Think about it. A liveaboard can stack 12-16 divers on a site, say Jahir. You have 2-3 guides showing off all they can find and inevitably some sort of harassing of the sealife for the photographers will occur (doesn't matter which resort or liveaboard, it happens). And most of the guests will be photographers. So all the life suddenly is harassed and hides from the marauding group. And the next boat comes and suffers. With land based resorts, they limit the damage to 6-8 divers per boat. It's a matter of numbers and attrition. And who doesn't want a dive site all to themselves, which use to be the case in the 90s when Lembeh was still not "in" yet.

Competition is great. Now KBR is cheaper and better because of Lembeh Resort and the others around it. They even offer EAN finally after 9 years of promising it. Ok the pool is abit overboard but hey it's now mainstream.

As for KBR snobbery, well, they were the first real resort there (before that, it was Bitung hotel and your own compressor from Manado, not fun!) Also I think many resorts have a tendency to believe the fallacy that asian divers  (save the japanese) would not pay the prices they charge the "gringos". I mean that's why all the ops in Manado started offering boats to Lembeh, because going to stay and dive at KBR was too "expensive" for many. Who doesn't know that many of the asian resorts have different price scales for asians and europeans/japanese/americans except KBR. They had the monopoly of lembeh until Lembeh Resort started. Their business model was  great while it lasted but competition shook them up. So approach them now and see their attitude change.

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Yes, I agree about the crowd and it is not nice to dive in sandy bottom area with 15-20 people around stirring up all kinds of things.

Price wise, I did notice that KBR price came down a lot in the last year or so. The last time I talked to KBR was April last year at ADEX in Singapore.

In the past, price was not an issue with me but geez, if they are going to charge me

same price as any other Japanese, Europeans, American, then extend the courtersy to me as they would toward other guests from wealthier countries as well. Nuff said on that.

I supposed I might consider KBR in the future if their attitude truely changed however the liveaboard that I was on which I will use again in September said that they will try to get a private diveguide for me and I could go off to other nearby site by dinghy rather than dive at the site where the rest of the boat will dive.They are also very flexible on dive time, number of dives etc and diveguide was ok with doing night dive at 9-10pm if I want etc and if I want to do 5 dives a day, they are willing to accomodate and yes, they do know that I monitor my bottom time, NDC, etc pretty rigoriously so they are not so strict with me. At night the boat dock at Police Pier so Police Pier and Nudi Fall is within easy reach for night dive anytime.

Now, with that kind of attitude, it will be hard to dive with someone else in Lembeh.

One problem that I can foresee is that there aren't many new local diveguides coming up through the rank. KBR is losing a number of excellent diveguides to other liveaboard, resorts. Those that I dove with and like in the past, Ali, Nusch, Wilson, Hanqi etc are now all with someone else. KBR still has the most number of qualified local guides but they are slowly losing them with not a lot of up and coming replacement. Many LOBs now bring in their own guides from elsewhere to train and familiarize them with Lembeh.

There is a lot going on in Lembeh right now, political stuff related to diving. But one thing is for sure, Lember will end up like any other "hot place" with an overload of crowds and declined diving quality. Look at Sipadan, the Red Sea and other areas similar to those. I won't ever go back to the Red Sea now that it attracts so many divers. Lembeh is different in that it is small. Its diving quality will decline far faster than than, say, the Red Sea due to its size. With all of the sites only 5-10 minutes away, diving pressure will ultimately increase exponentially with the growth of liveaboards and more resorts. Right now, KBR coordinates with Lembeh resort so they do not motor to the same dive spot, but nothing is done with the liveaboards. As the resorts and liveaboards increase, you will not want to be at a diving destination that has 10 divers on a site.

Regarding those 10 divers, silt will be kicked up, guides still harrass the marine life because they think the customer likes it and wants it for the "picture". And some do! Getting that good picture will become harder and sometimes you won't have the chance because they are no longer there. Don't get me wrong, my trip was fantastic, but I believe I got to experience a streamed down version of what Lembeh will be like in 3-5 years, and that is simply not my kind of diving trip. The good news is that Steve at KBR is lobbying for Indonesian employment as liveaboards are added. He is trying to promote diving conservation and proper marine life interaction. Guides USED to be cowboys, heavily harrassing marine life to get them to "behave defensively" for the photo. He is trying to retrain the guides to interact with the animals without harrassing them. That means lost opportunities for us, but longevity for the operation and area. I'd opt for longevity. Fishing is also a problem, not just diving. The fishing is probably more destructive than the diving relative to the quantity of marine life. That is a mold that will be hard to break since they have been fishing there for years. There was a time that whale sharks used to pass through the Lembeh strait, but they were fished out of existence. That had nothing to do with divers.

Joe

Joe, I don’t mean to hijack your thread butttt; regarding the marine life this thread is proving that there should probably be no herding of, prodding of, or digging around for marine life. I am new to the hobby and don’t have to make a living doing it but isn’t our first responsibility to protect the creatures we are so fascinated by? I don’t think we can complain about others as we belly crawl, dig thru junk and get help posing creatures. IMHO we should be working with ops and guides that take a hands off approach to wildlife, rewarding them with our business and generous tips.

Martin,

You are merely making my point. Re-educating the guides on marine life interaction and how to properly handle them is essential. If they keep prodding, digging, hitting etc for the sake of us as photographers, it's not worth it. Steve at KBR is fighting a battle with his guides to re-educate them on environemntal issues and marine life impact. I hope I didn't insinuate that I applaud harrassing marine life for the sake of a photo. I'd opt for the alternative.....as I said, environmental and marine life longevity via proper diving practices, and safe marine life interaction. That begins with training the guides and enforcing rules, not to mention controlling the crowds. When you get a pile of divers in a small area, it's damn near impossible to control them as well. Divers in Lembeh now carry 12-18" poles of their own to dig for marine life, prod and poke. Where does it stop? It goes beyond the guides, it is the divers who now know that they too can use the same tools to harrass the marine life as the guides do. Not all divers use the pole, and some that do use it sparingly. Others abuse it. When you get 200-300 divers in the area a week, and most have poles for one reason or another, guess what? Longevity is jeapordized.

Joe

How many liveaboards are in Lembeh now? Personally I know of 3, Aqua One, Panunee and Ocean Rover which at full capacity would add about 50 more divers to Lembeh approximately 30 dive sites. I don't know the capacity at KBR or how many people come over from the other side of the island each day. However 50 people split over 3 different divesites at a given time is not exactly the kind of number that would deteriorate Lembeh in a hurry, I think. I don't know if LOB coordinate anything with KBR/Lembeh resort but beside mandarin dive, we were the only boat at each site that we visited.

May be I am a bit too much of a cynic but I could not help wonder reading about KBR trying to promote diving conservation. When KBR has the monopoly of Lembeh, they certainly trained and encouraged diveguides to be very hand on with the animals. I dove with many ex-diveguides from KBR at various places. They were all very good at finding stuffs, very hand on with manipulation, moving, prodding and searching for all the critters. Personally I expect diveguide to find me stuffs but I don't expect nor encourage them to prod, set the scene or harass the animals in anyway.

All 3 liveaboards that I know all have at least a couple of local Indonesian diveguides already working for the boat.

I cannot foresee Lembeh being as crowded as the Red Sea, the Similans in Thailand or Sipadan mainly because its kind of diving only attract a small part of dive community, I think. Afterall, I would think that most divers would hate the idea of doing muck diving with poor to fair viz for a whole week. The corals/reef at Angel's Window and a few similar sites are certainly not enough to attract the regular diver's crowd and the lack of palegics certainly would turn off many people.

I don't know what is the best solution to maintain Lembeh. Wakatobi's solution is not very practical for Lembeh, I think. I just hope that while there are growing number of liveaboards/resorts, the amount of growth will be kept down by its limited type of diving it offers.

There is a lot going on in Lembeh right now, political stuff related to diving.  But one thing is for sure, Lember will end up like any other "hot place" with an overload of crowds and declined diving quality.  Look at Sipadan, the Red Sea and other areas similar to those.  I won't ever go back to the Red Sea now that it attracts so many divers.  Lembeh is different in that it is small.  Its diving quality will decline far faster than than, say, the Red Sea due to its size.  With all of the sites only 5-10 minutes away, diving pressure will ultimately increase exponentially with the growth of liveaboards and more resorts.  Right now, KBR coordinates with Lembeh resort so they do not motor to the same dive spot, but nothing is done with the liveaboards.  As the resorts and liveaboards increase, you will not want to be at a diving destination that has 10 divers on a site. 

 

Regarding those 10 divers, silt will be kicked up, guides still harrass the marine life because they think the customer likes it and wants it for the "picture".  And some do!  Getting that good picture will become harder and sometimes you won't have the chance because they are no longer there.  Don't get me wrong, my trip was fantastic, but I believe I got to experience a streamed down version of what Lembeh will be like in 3-5 years, and that is simply not my kind of diving trip.  The good news is that Steve at KBR is lobbying for Indonesian employment as liveaboards are added.  He is trying to promote diving conservation and proper marine life interaction.  Guides USED to be cowboys, heavily harrassing marine life to get them to "behave defensively" for the photo.  He is trying to retrain the guides to interact with the animals without harrassing them.  That means lost opportunities for us, but longevity for the operation and area.  I'd opt for longevity.  Fishing is also a problem, not just diving.  The fishing is probably more destructive than the diving relative to the quantity of marine life.  That is a mold that will be hard to break since they have been fishing there for years.  There was a time that whale sharks used to pass through the Lembeh strait, but they were fished out of existence. 

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Ah Joe, it already is like the red sea given the size of area vs number of resorts and liveaboards. That's why I haven't been there since last year... because I lament the loss of Lembeh of just 12 years ago when it was so special I went twice a year.

The unfortunate truth is enough people pay the guides big money (for them) to poke and harass for the shots. How many pygmy sea horses have actually been knocked out by strobes? I've seen them get so stressed out they fall off the muricella. How about mimics where they tap on the holes until they pop their heads up and then poke them to flush them out? How about the mandarin dive where people dig up the rubble to get even a lousy shot of the mandarin fish? Harassment won't end because no one wants it to end sadly. What worked just 9 years ago when Larry was training the guys cannot be sustained now.

Population growth is the worst enemy. The pollution of Lembeh is already making the nudibranchs suffer. Rarer nudies were found around many sites until 3-4 years ago when the nudies began to fall off in numbers or have gone deeper, this is beyond the seasonal variances.

Btw the last time I saw whaleshark in Lembeh was in 1994. It was fished the next day.

Also, the belly crawl on a sand bottom is on sand, not across an animal as you imply.

My definition of prodding was probably misinterpreted..I mean as in coaxing without actually poking, although poking with a metal wand was mainstay for some guides. To hold a sea fan out of the way of a diver with a wand so he/she can photograph something without harming the sea fan is more proactive than the alternative you suggest, which is that I harrassed something. I suppose I could have just crammed my arm into the fan and not used the guide to help me. The term "poking" should have been used when something was poked and coaxing when something was not touched, just moved by hand or wand movement. Where do you draw the line? Do you permit divers to dig into sponges and destroy them to get the shot, or promote responsible interaction? It's like the squat lobster I talked about. We never touched the lobster, ever. The guide used his wand to wave in front of it to turn it around. Is that harrassment? Where do we draw the line? In some cases guides actually poke animals, swat them and dig for them.....I did NONE of this. The fact that some animals on a sponge had hand motion by the guide to convince them to turn towards my lens is not my definition of harrassment as you imply. If that is your definition of harrassment we'd all go to Hell. When a guide digs an octopus out of its shell by using his wand (poking-prodding, whatever), that constitutes harrassment and I am not into that. But if you define motion to rotate an animal as harmful and taboo to underwater photography, then we should all hang up our cameras and get into basket weeving.

Joe

How many liveaboards are in Lembeh now? Personally I know of 3, Aqua One, Panunee and Ocean Rover which at full capacity would add about 50 more divers to Lembeh approximately 30 dive sites. I don't know the capacity at KBR or how many people come over from the other side of the island each day.

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There are 2 other liveaboards from Manado, 5 resorts (coming to 7 soon)

Also, the belly crawl on a sand bottom is on sand, not across an animal as you imply.

 

My definition of prodding was probably misinterpreted..I mean as in coaxing without actually poking, although poking with a metal wand was mainstay for some guides.  To hold a sea fan out of the way of a diver with a wand so he/she can photograph something without harming the sea fan is more proactive than the alternative you suggest, which is that I harrassed something.  I suppose I could have just crammed my arm into the fan and not used the guide to help me.  The term "poking" should have been used when something was poked and coaxing when something was not touched, just moved by hand or wand movement. Where do you draw the line?  Do you permit divers to dig into sponges and destroy them to get the shot, or promote responsible interaction?  It's like the squat lobster I talked about.  We never touched the lobster, ever.  The guide used his wand to wave in front of it to turn it around.  Is that harrassment? Where do we draw the line?  In some cases guides actually poke animals, swat them and dig for them.....I did NONE of this.  The fact that some animals on a sponge had hand motion by the guide to convince them to turn towards my lens is not my definition of harrassment as you imply.  If that is your definition of harrassment we'd all go to Hell.  When a guide digs an octopus out of its shell by using his wand (poking-prodding, whatever), that constitutes harrassment and I am not into that.  But if you define motion to rotate an animal as harmful and taboo to underwater photography, then we should all hang up our cameras and get into basket weeving.

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Joe first of all I'm sorry for the deviation the thread...didn't mean to detract from the photo side. And thanks to James for splitting it.

Secondly, don't take my rants as a personal attack on yourself. It is most definitely not. I wasn't implying anything you did was wrong and I'm sorry you took it that way.

I just have a stricter policy for myself than many about interaction with marine life. That's why I switched to video from stills. I don't like the effects of strobes on most marine life. Just a personal peeve from my observations. The thin line is very much self-drawn...so long as the subject isn't dead or maimed when the shooter is done.

Joe my comment was not aimed at you but the general lament we hear, “the place is getting crowded, people are doing anything to get a shot, etc…. Without a doubt I have kicked coral, knocked it with a strobe and so on. My personal rule is if I can’t hold position with 1 finger on a dead part of coral I forego the shot. I won’t move fans/whatever to get a shot because once again we are dealing with the cumulative effect. Will I swim around a fish to get the angle I want, sure, this is my sin.

Guides are dependant on tips and lets face it there is no easy way to tell anyone “you are being a little tough on the reef/crittersâ€. Regardless of how egregious the action anyone is going to be defensive when the subject is broached. It is something we as divers/photographers have to take up with each other in forums like this and possibly, on occasion, after a dive.

Such is my rant and once again it is not aimed at any individual.

Well, if there is any consolation to the crowd, the 3 liveaboards that I know are in Lembeh only about 5 months of the year. Aqua One for now will alternate its Indonesian itinerary between Lembeh and Komodo yearly although in the future when its own resort is opened, Aqua One or its sister boat may stay in Lembeh permanently.

It is hard to draw the line where harassing animal start but generally I would think anything involving touching the animal, either with hand or pointer. However one diver poking a frogfish with a pointer probably cost less stress than flashes from 10 divers taking a picture of one pgymy seahorse without touching it.

Well, if there is any consolation to the crowd, the 3 liveaboards that I know are in Lembeh only about 5 months of the year. Aqua One for now will alternate its Indonesian itinerary between Lembeh and Komodo yearly although in the future when its own resort is opened, Aqua One or its sister boat may stay in Lembeh permanently.

 

It is hard to draw the line where harassing animal start but generally I would think anything involving touching the animal, either with hand or pointer. However one diver poking a frogfish with a pointer probably cost less stress than flashes from 10 divers taking a picture of one pgymy seahorse without touching it.

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Johnny? in Lembeh? Not possible! He won't push anyone out of the way for a lousy pygmy seahorse And don't get me started on the thai boats doing Komodo. Those mermaid guys were terrible last year!

Like physical contact, strobes can be almost deadly, esp nowadays when digital shooters can blast 400 shots in a row. I've seen pygmies, ghost pipefish and other little creatures collapse from the constant flashing. Even strong video lights can affect them.

I have been reading this thread since Joe uploaded his excellent images. Finally could not keep my fingers still.

Randy and I stayed at Lembeh Resort for a week in May 2005. We stayed at Murex Manado for the 5 nights prior. The only liveaboard dive boats we saw, came to the resort and dropped off and picked up passengers. We never encountered one while at a dive site. Usually our dive boat (2-6 divers and 1-2 guides) was the only one at any dive site both at Murex and Lembeh Resorts.

I have not been to Lembeh before this, but had heard about it and seen some amazing critter photographs. So I cannot comment on the disappearance of any critters. We thought it amazing! Better than PNG in the strange animals that we were taking photographs of.

We received a very firm dive briefing before diving at either resort on proper reef behavior and how to be nice to divers without cameras. Each photographer was expected to wait their turn, take a few shots and then let the next diver in. If everyone was done and there was time you could go back and take a few more, but the guides were always finding another amazing critter to take a picture of.

We were concerned about the pokers (never seen one before). The other guests who had been to the area before had their own pokers, usually a plastic chopstick in a sleeve attached to a part of their gear. The guides were much more conservative in the use of the pokers than the other guests. I was also impressed with our guide at Lembeh who spent a great amount of time untangling some material from a coral head on one of the dives.

Last, at Lembeh Resort the Mandarin fish dive is free. They ask every day who would like to go for the dusk dive to see the Mandarin fish. Andy (dive manager & guide) did not let anyone dig in the rubble. In fact while shooting a juvenile batfish I ventured too far over the rubble and he politely asked me to stay back (using slate). Their were 4 or 5 of us on the dive and we all got nice shots of single Mandarin fish and mating Mandarin fish. There were plenty fish so that we did not have to take turns.

Whew, let a girl who types for a living get started and it goes on and on. I guess what I wanted to say is don't give up on the area yet. The biggest problem we saw was the amount of garbage in the water. Especially in Manado bay. Yuk!

We'll be back to Lembeh,

Kathy

Johnny? in Lembeh? Not possible! He won't push anyone out of the way for a lousy pygmy seahorse And don't get me started on the thai boats doing Komodo. Those mermaid guys were terrible last year!

Like physical contact, strobes can be almost deadly, esp nowadays when digital shooters can blast 400 shots in a row. I've seen pygmies, ghost pipefish and other little creatures collapse from the constant flashing. Even strong video lights can affect them.

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Hmmm, never dove with those Mermaids guy but am thinking about going there with Aqua One next year. I had a great time in Komodo a couple of years ago with Grand Komodo. I personally try not to expose a single critter to my Ikelite strobes more than 10-20 shots in one setting Especially in Lembeh when there are so many other critters waiting to be a model in the same dive

I suppose the number of flash exposure these critters are now facing is significantly higher than the good old film day. However I also remember seeing the Pros with 5-6 cameras.

Oh well, I better take all the pictures I can before they are all gone

I have not been to Lembeh before this, but had heard about it and seen some amazing critter photographs. So I cannot comment on the disappearance of any critters. We thought it amazing! Better than PNG in the strange animals that we were taking photographs of.

We were concerned about the pokers (never seen one before). The other guests who had been to the area before had their own pokers, usually a plastic chopstick in a sleeve attached to a part of their gear. The guides were much more conservative in the use of the pokers than the other guests.

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Kathy, Lembeh is still very good for critters for many. Just that when one has seen it at its prime, it's difficult not to lament. I know Danny has been working on his staff to be hands off for many years. But as you say, those with their own pokers do their own thing with great liberty. Doesn't matter if it's staff or guest, same thing. As for the mandarin dive, if the rubble is dug up every dive, I doubt there'd be many mandarin fish left. I've stopped one person doing it, I've seen video of people doing it (and gave them hell for it).

I haven't even started on the garden gloves people. Not to sound like a grumpy guy though

Hmmm, never dove with those Mermaids guy but am thinking about going there with Aqua One next year. I had a great time in Komodo a couple of years ago with Grand Komodo. I personally try not to expose a single critter to my Ikelite strobes more than 10-20 shots in one setting Especially in Lembeh when there are so many other critters waiting to be a model in the same dive

I suppose the number of flash exposure these critters are now facing is significantly higher than the good old film day.

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That reminds me of what someone told me once. In the old days, there were a handful of uw photographers, so breaking a bit of coral etc for the shot, was not as intrusive in the overall scheme of things and it'd grow back quickly like nothing ever happened(not sure I agree but hey).

Nowadays, with digital cameras, growing scuba popularity and cheaper equipment, every Tom, Dick and Mary is a photographer and do the same crap... so the attrition factor is exponential almost.

SSRA30, the Aqua One is my fave boat in Phuket. And I know they've been preparing for Komodo well. Mermaid's people screwed up on timing dives on many sites in Komodo. Even the Kararu people don't dive Tatawan Kechil and Batu Balong because of the currents. I'm sure they will have in sussed out but there'll be teething problems which they should work out quickly. Just tell Johnny not to get his butt in front of your shot.

SSRA30, the Aqua One is my fave boat in Phuket. And I know they've been preparing for Komodo well. Mermaid's people screwed up on timing dives on many sites in Komodo. Even the Kararu people don't dive Tatawan Kechil and Batu Balong because of the currents. I'm sure they will have in sussed out but there'll be teething problems which they should work out quickly. Just tell Johnny not to get his butt in front of your shot.

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I really like Aqua One a lot as well and Ali is the best diveguide I ever dove with, period. For some reason, I seems to have really bad karma with them when it comes to scheduling a trip. Last time I tried to dive with them, the tsunami happened

I would not dive Komodo unless I know the diveguide/boat is familiar with the location because of tricky current there.

Don't know who Johnny is. Do you mean Jacky? I am one of those divers with my own personal pointer/poker so if any butt gets in front of me, be prepared to be poked very ungently!

Pointer becomes very popular in Thailand in the last few years. I know people can use it to harass the animal readily but I find it invaluable especially to help avoiding collision, damage to coral/seafan during drift dive as I can use it instead of my big clumsy hand to push myself off the rock when neccessary etc.

In current or surge, I also sometimes bury it in the sand to steady myself.

Yeah, I used it sometimes to manuever hairy squat lobster etc around, smack a few urchins out of my way etc. The bright yellow wrist lanyard will keep ribbon eel happy sticking his head out of the hole for a long long time.

Hi folks,

I didn't know I would not receive a trigger for messages when the chat was moved my Mr. Wiseman. Alas I found it.

First and foremost, I never meant to suggest that scuba drew and Martin were wrong. In fact they both have very valid points. I apologize if they took my comments personally. The point I was making is that I simply got my photos the best way I could without disturbing the marine life. In fact I had to do a dirty and report one of the guides for doing some pretty harsh stuff to the animals. I dodn't want to really report this because it was a hard decision to make and not my cup of tea to report, but my wife was ireate at what we saw. It was corrected.

We did shoot pics of animals under trash, and we did take advantage of guides moving trash and such to get pictures. In all cases the guiodes refused to let us do any manipulation. They recommended our approach, i.e. crawl on the sand to approach and also let them set up the shots. In my case, no animals were poked or pushed, but some were coaxed by the guides to position them for a picture. Where I went bolistic was a situation that resulted in sever poking and not harrassment but abuse. I dealt with that like any of you would have. Scuba dru and Martin are correct in their coments and status of Lembeh. Being a reaearch diver and degreed biologist, I have performed a lot of steps to preserve marine life. Just for a picture of what I did, my job was to dive on our gill nets and remove non-target species before they would die. It's right in line with my diving philosophy and preservation of the marine world.

Nonetheless, what Martin and Dru say is true. Where do you draw the line? What constitutes harrassment? As ALL of you know we have our opinions. And we know generally what is bad or acceptable in our own minds. Lembeh is a trash land, and photographing subjects there is contingent on lifting trash, moving animals directionally, and also holding things out of your way so you don't damage it while you photograph away. If you don't do this, Lembeh pics are limited. This is where it all goes wrong unless you have the right guides. In our case they did not allow you to do anything or touch anything. For condervation reasons, they insisted on doing any movement of trash and marine life. I will say that three of my best shots only happened when a guide helped me get them...he moved sea fans out of my way on one shot, motioned a crab to come to a more meaningful shot and cleared sand away from a stargazer.

When our guide wacked a fish and beat the shit out of an octopus, I had a chat with the dive manager. And it wasn't hunky dori. I am a huge advocate of marine conservation and not harrassment of marine life. There is a degree of what I think is right and wrong. The tactics I used I believe are fine in order to get the shots I have. But I don't believe that belly crawling on a sand bottom to approach an animals is harasment. Nor do I believe that moving an animal gently (like the guides do) is harassment. If this were the case, there would be no dive destination in the world that would be suitable for marine life photofraphy.

Just my opinion of course. Have a great weekend!!

Joe

I really like Aqua One a lot as well and Ali is the best diveguide I ever dove with, period. For some reason, I seems to have really bad karma with them when it comes to scheduling a trip. Last time I tried to dive with them, the tsunami happened

Don't know who Johnny is. Do you mean Jacky? I am one of those divers with my own personal pointer/poker so if any butt gets in front of me, be prepared to be poked very ungently!

Pointer becomes very popular in Thailand in the last few years. I know people can use it to harass the animal readily but I find it invaluable especially to help avoiding collision, damage to coral/seafan during drift dive as I can use it instead of my big clumsy hand to push myself off the rock when neccessary etc.

Yeah, I used it sometimes to manuever hairy squat lobster etc around, smack a few urchins out of my way etc. The bright yellow wrist lanyard will keep ribbon eel happy sticking his head out of the hole for a long long time.

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Ali and Nus are fun guys. Johnny as in John Gallick, the cruise director/captain/part time diver. He is one crazy guy once there's a whaleshark or manta around.

Yes the accursed poker. I personally dislike it because it gives a person too much freedom and temptation.Sort of like the garden gloves. But to each their own.

Joe

Funny, I thought you took it personally I know I'm not wrong on this subject.

A guide at KBR wacked a fish and beat the crap out of an octopus? Only one guy in KBR is known for that.

Unfortunately, photographers do more damage than they realize or even care sometimes. I believe in opportunistic shooting. If an emperor shrimp crawls to the top of tube worm or sea cucumber, that's cool. Turning it upside down so you can get the shot is not. Moving a creature by bumping and prodding (aka "enocuraging" it to move) is not cool. If it wants to move it'll move... Sorta like that Doubilet shot of the seamoth on top of his WA port with the surface as background... we know he put it there. Fake and contrived...disguised as art.

Ali and Nus are fun guys. Johnny as in John Gallick, the cruise director/captain/part time diver. He is one crazy guy once there's a whaleshark or manta around.

Yes the accursed poker. I personally dislike it because it gives a person too much freedom and temptation.Sort of like the garden gloves. But to each their own.

 

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Oh, that Johnny. I don't him very well but dove Aqua One when he was on board awhile back. We were in different groups. I tend to hog Ali when I can

The 2 brothers/owners of the boat were on board at the time so Johnny was busy taking care of them!

I know some people say something like, it is ok to let the guide do all the manipulation because they know what they are doing so they don't stress out the animal as much as if you would do it yourself.

True or false, hard to say, it could all be self just self justification for not such a nice act. I am guilty of many many acts, some that my divebuddies even claimed to have on film but I do try to behave as much as I can.

Some of the much better photographers I met told me that they don't even bother trying to take picture of crinoid shrimps anymore even if they did not disturb the crinoid or manipulate it very much (so they claimed) as most people would just assume that they had to pretty much half destroy the crinoids to get to the shrimp.

Some places like Sipadan try to ban the use of gloves just so you can't touch anything. I think that's a bit too extreme.