RomiK

Everything is going to HDR, like it or not. It's just a matter of time. Now you can have your opinion about the quality of this or that but as well as we all can have wet dreams we have to deal with what we have as for tools and as for consuming the results. And so we have Shinobi as HDR monitor and YouTube or private (OLED the best) TVs. As far as I understand HDR in video is far away from what HDR was originally in still photography - rather than relatively flat image of HDR photos in the past it's a high highs low blacks images of iPhones and MacBook Pro XDR displays. And OLED TVs with deep blacks. Matter of fact deeper black you have lower the highs you need in order to deliver. Lookup YT video of one of Hollywood best colorist describing how he grades movies for HDR. So your opinion of how this or that company deals with what you think is HDR is a bit irrelevant as it's not you who defines this standard. And so yes, Shinobi IS an HDR monitor. With all of its 1000 nits brightness. Not meaning this sounding disparaging btw. From practical standpoint a monitor is extremely related to HDR as without it (HDR monitor) you can't properly expose, not using the built in camera screen and by a long shot. In some situation you see just the waveform and practically nothing else. I am attaching couple screenshots from an iPhone video which might show the issue at hand.

Yes, I only shoot Slog3 and through PQ conversion deliver in HLG (I can see eyebrows raised everywhere 😂 ). I work in FCPX. Shinobi in Nauticam attached to camera by my special prototype bracket 😁 is just awesome no problems to use in currents and jumping from boat. The thing with HDR exposure is that you need to expose so much that in (especially) low contrast environment the camera monitor will show white screen basically. And did I say forget about what you think you know about ISO when exposing for Slog3 on Sony A1 at least 😁🤙. Next dive coming shortly 🤙

You want to read this thread. It also touches the subject of FX3 being actually best Sony camera for hybrid shooting I am currently in Maldives on a maiden voyage with Shinobi and I can attest that without HDR monitor it’s really and 100% impossible produce HDR videos underwater 😁. Some review will be coming.

I just made it to Maldives southern tip 🤙 will try to upload the file somewhere and post the link.

Thank you for explanation, makes sense 👍 Very interesting. It seems like that Sony's very own (or contracted) devteam omitted possibility of these high temperature WB when they were creating profiles and then by virtue of APIs this morphed further to other dev teams of other companies... Or perhaps they just officially don't support these higher values as perhaps officially these may not be reliable (similar to what they say about WB with Slog3) and so their published profiles end with 9900 and that's it... It's a shame, I like the colors the most, perhaps will need to export these scenarios from Sony as tiff. Either way it would be interesting so see and compare default output of Canon Nikon and newer Panasonics in these high temp WB situations.

Not sure if it's the right forum but this seems to me an infrastructure issue rather than workflow or editing issue. Has anyone noticed - not only from Sony world but also Canon and Nikon if this issue has been noticed there - startling differences in interpretation - on occasion - of (fairly high) custom white balanced images (this 33000) between the vendor's own raw processor (in this case Sony) and industry standard like Adobe Lightroom and Camera raw and actually Apple too? I will let pictures talk, I didn't browse images with Sony's software before, always put them through Lightroom and was done with it... It's an engineering issue, nothing we could do about, just curious if anyone run into this Sony Viewer initial view : Sony's metadata view Ligtroom initial view Lightroom after moving purple and magenta hues all the way to the left OSX Finder preview - this is how it would turn in Apple photos too: try

WOW! Superb images 👏👏👏 What was the technique behind the blurred in motion ones? You moving camera with front curtain? Or moving the other way with rear curtain? Or how? 🙂

This should be set in stone 👏👏👏

I too am perplexed looking at some of your answers 🤣 it's like you'd be using ChatGPT for that 🤣 . Listen I don't doubt you have read the theory, you have nice extensive blog site for that. But throwing numbers around is not the same as understand these numbers and being able to use them. Your underwater footage from Malpello, for example, is outright awful. Let me guess - you were chasing sharks and eagle rays with your mask on a viewfinder which is so bright you had no idea you were underexposing all the time. And the resulting footage is so shaking it reminds me of my students first tries with GoPro... There goes an answer for why you might benefit from using an external monitor too. External viewfinder will obstruct the rear camera display so much it's unusable. You can review - so you don't feel like I'd be bashing your work without throwing in mine - some of my footage from Cocos, where diving conditions are similar to Malpello, also with A1 also no lights with custom WB plus there is some GoPro here and there mixed in. Better to watch on HDR capable screen and make sure YT shows that HDR symbol. What I want to say it's fine to debate numbers where appropriate but this thread was about on-hand experience in dealing with specific challenges, it wasn't really a question for theoretic mentors but it's great you have shown that throwing numbers around does not have to translate to end results necessarily.

You've got it wrong... it's not that slog3 underexposes. It is that you don't know how to expose properly for Slog3. Slog3 is not meant to be exposed on autopilot, just research something about exposing for grey cards etc... Of course underwater we can't adjust exposure using other tools, that's where waveforms come handy and you should forget about the exposure correction, just expose based on waveforms and what you see on monitor - and there you have it - without HDR monitor and HDR at least some interpretation of log color gamut on that monitor you can't do much. Zebras etc might help but it's like shooting blind. You might want to give some credit to Atomos folks, they might know just a little more than you do. I will add that LUTs are just a starting point in underwater color grading anyway, given so variable light and white balance conditions. So Atomos's interpretation of Slog gamut to PQ gives you that starting point during the creative process. With Slog3 still pictures there is different problem - and that is that current popular software tools like Lightroom can't interpret the raw files shot in Slog3 very well especially if shot with aggressive custom white balance like when shooting at 30m depth. Sony's own imaging desktop app can do this but the workflow is not as smooth. You need to play with those apps to see for yourself and please don't dismiss this idea right away like you usually do based on your understanding of the world. There is whole galaxy beyond that 🙂 . Happy shooting

Not quite agree there... here is Sony LUT for HDR conversion... it shows less information in highlights than PQ. To choose PQ to view does not mean I am going to deliver PQ. I am going to grade HLG. But since I have no option to reshoot or work with lights underwater I need to know the most information I could what am I recording. So empirically PQ conversion of Sgamut shows the most truthful image of what is being recorded and that is important to me. Edit: this image taken several minutes after first two and sun is going down so... doesn't change anything on the why PQ is better then Sony LUTs to review. Just explaining a bit different image

You are right re:display, I didn't notice I was in still mode when checking it out. But it's not that I would use more battery, I just don't save any plus as I said I like focus confirmation. As for displays - see and judge it for yourself. Rec.709 vs PQ conversion... the blinds in light... and look at the waveforms for signal strengths although the picture may seem uneven exposure but maybe I do something wrong still learning a bit

For reference here is image with picture profile OFF displayed on Shinobi set for Slog3 input... Not ideal but also not too bad

Again, not quite true, Sony's monitor off course can show info or even a blank screen only. So if anything I would save on battery should I choose this display. But then I also like to see the confirmation of a focus point... As for HDR monitor usability I think it's a bit personal taste - if shooting something mechanically, like talking heads or fast moving skateboards from below then yes, monitor is just monitor and I need to see shapes. But if I am judging in real time how would certain scenario turn up and which exposure to give to it, like water reflection, sunballs etc then I find ability to see HDR quite valuable. Different tools for different needs but underwater we only have one to use 🙂

Not true. On Sony if you select HDMI info display off you get all shootings information on the camera monitor and clean HDMI on external monitor. So you can preview beautiful 10bit image on external monitor. Unfortunately - as you also found out - there is no way to change Shinobi setting underwater meaning once I set it co convert Slog3 Sgamut for display I have to feed it with Slog3 Sgamut all the time including stills. Or I could forget about stills, they will end up ok anyway and just get used to a little contrasty oversaturated look of them underwater knowing that they will turn up perfect in post.

Yes, please, digging this deeper it appears the thread should read "Challenges of shooting photos and HDR videos with Sony A1(Ax?) cameras and Shinobi external monitor underwater." As I just tried my R6 Canon for example deals with monitor differently. As for LUTs you can definitely load custom LUT on Shinobi however in my eyes best representation of Gamut is given by converting SLog3 to PQ in monitor. I get an idea what's recorded and whatever I do with it in post is up2me. SGamut has wider space than HLG than 709 so information is there and however I clip it is - again - up to me. I find this valuable because - especially in video - the ability to see what I record is important to my artistic desires 🙂 . Imagine sunballs, all these dreamy shots with water above etc... rec709 monitor or viewfinder just won't cut it 🙂

Yes, FX3 seems to address this issue somewhat however it is meant for strict video creators - to use the LUT preview on camera rig whether they have monitor attached or not. BUT the issue is HDR and 10bit. Since the camera monitor is not HDR it will show anything meaningful only in 709 conversion... But the beauty of Shinobi is that it is true 10bit HDR screen... so to preview HDR content you need to use external monitor and HDR LUT anyway which means you would see squat on built-in monitor. However Shinobi could be set to native input and output which would mean if FX3 can shoot pictures and with flash and monitor it could be a true hybrid HDR rig although 12MPix stills only. I am sensing A7Siii has the same problem as A1.

These are excellent pictures. I for one can't wait to try Sony 14mm/1.8GM behind 180mm glass next week in Maldives. I am thinking of Manta cleaning station, maybe channel shark dive, tiger zoo and fish factory rays madness 🤞

Playing more with the setup and coming back to the original purpose of this thread - which I started in order to give something back to the community and not to bicker out personalized opinions. I should probably change the name to challenges with Shinobi and A1 when hybrid shooting 🙂 The lag in between modes changing I mentioned earlier - as long as Sony doesn't change the signal out there is no lag and changes between still and movie mode on the monitor are instant. Or when shooting movies from still mode - also instant. When Sony changes signal out? When set to auto and movie is set to anything else then 60 or 120 fps - simplified. Shinobi is limited to 4k30 input. It's HD screen only anyway. So there is no reason why not to set HDMI out on Sony to 1080p only. Still modes PASM send HDMI signal out at 4k30 (auto) or 1080p60 if set. Movie mode sends signal out up to 4k30 (auto) or at 1080p60 if set UNLESS you decide the shoot at 24fps So what is the best practice for hybrid shooting and fast switching between modes? Set HDMI out to 1080p and avoid shooting movies in 24fps like a plague. All other frame rates and resolutions will be sent out as 1080p60 and so Shinobi will not change signal input and all changes will be instant. Good luck in selecting your monitor and camera 🙂

it's a bit low to trash something just because you don't/can't have it 🤣 I will say your view of the world is quite narrow and you don't hesitate to push it through so strong person there 🤣 You really need to play with your new camera to understand it better 🤙 For others who would like to see example of stills with flash in Slog3 here is a boring picture from The Boiler divesite of Socorro with its raw, processed, 100% and 800% crops, and some other more attractive shots from Cabo Pearce, you can judge the feasibility of taking stills with log profile for yourself. These are mixed scenes where flash is used to just fill in and we also need to recover some colors and contrast in the background in post. The lens is a video lens as the subject of this thread talks something about true hybrid shooting 🤙

Did you ever try to shoot pictures in Slog3 a process them in Lightroom... just go outside, take three shots, one no PP and two with Slog3 at 0EV and +2EV and see it for yourself... use standard Adobe color and report any differences you could spot 🙂 I shot like 6000 images over the past year and half with A1 underwater, with and without profiles, with and without flash so no need to mentor here 🙂 No need for LUTs when developing stills. For video yes, LUTs are essential but that's the point to shoot in log. In a sense there is no avenue to produce HDR footage without recording in LOG format save for HLG which has limited color grading options. But being a professional if you say you shoot talking heads you already know this. As for the benefits of external monitor - "one man's truth is another man's bias" 🙂

Off course you have to compensate for that. Same applies for video although stills you can push a bit more. Video like 1.7 stops. That's like a basic rule but I might add that the correct way of exposing Slog is using waveforms or other tools available (sadly A1 does not have these built in) and external monitor allows just that. HDMI lag is really not an issue, for me like unnoticeable. But switching among the modes - takes ages. I am used to do like getting an eagle ray shot, then switch to movie mode and while the ray sticks around I swim with it in parallel and make a nice movie segment (can't do this with a viewfinder btw). Now I will have to time it better or shoot blind first couple seconds. P.S. For admins - I named this thread wrong, it was supposed to be a Monitor and not Viewfinder in the heading 🙈 - if admin could change this to accommodate forum search function? thx

nullThis setup is 14kg air and 0 underwater. So you might think that by the challenge I meant the back hurt by transporting it topside. Partially truth 🙂 The challenge I had in mind lies in clean HDMI output and HDR capabilities of Shinobi screen. It's 10bit 1000nits HDR display and as such it allows me to preview and tweak exposure of Slog3 footage coming out the camera in PQ mode and really really push it in terms of sunball against the light water surface shots. Can't wait to try it out. Because of that I have to have monitor set accepting Slog3 from the camera and display it in PQ color space. And there is no access to monitor settings underwater when in housing. Which also means that when I am shooting stills I have to shoot them with PP9 (Slog3) profile. Because the monitor treats incoming HDMI like I told it to and when sending signal without PP the result is unwatchable. So far in my research and tests show that it doesn't appear to be a big problem - well lit scenes have almost identical color saturation and underwater I don't care much about shadows in which - topside - I found less color saturation compared to shooting without picture profile. (yes we still talk raw files). Interesting enough Sony A1 produces identical grain for pictures shot ISO 8000 shot without PP and ISO80000 in pictures shot with PP9 Slog3 profile. Also no difference in saturations in these high ISO. It were low ISO like 100 no PP and 800 PP9 where I found those differences. Off course I could not use PP for stills and switch to control display in HDMI output setting but then I would loose benefits of using amazing Shinobi HDR screen... Plus time switching it... Decision decision...

I see you'd like to get a taste the 'free world' 🙂 . I too am tired when I see what's coming out of iPhones underwater 🙂 For now on video side but just a matter of time someone figures out simple flash and synchro 🙂 The truth is that no matter how small ILC you choose when you add handles, even a small dome and flashes the overall size and weight won't make drastic difference re: the quote above. So how about - just to taste that world 🙂 - before spending considerable money just to end up with something marginally smaller than what you currently have - so how about getting TG6-7, single handle and single strobe, perhaps add fish eye conversion if that CFWA is your thing and go explore? Maybe you gonna like it 🙂 https://www.uwphotographyguide.com/olympus-tg6-wide-angle-fcon-t02-fisheye-lens

If I could voice my opinion I would say this - topside we can always see differences between good and - mediocre - lenses. Good example in m43 world Lumix lenses and their counterparts Leica variants. The differences in color rendition, sharpness, micro contrast, all that woodoo which makes the image pop up, especially in challenging light conditions, all these are staggering. Now why would that be different underwater? It's like putting lipstick on the pig. Slapping another piece of optics, no matter how well calculated from geometry standpoint, on a mediocre lens like this Canon 28-70 (or my Sony 28-60) will not make better image than superb 8-15L (or my Sony 14 1.8G) behind the glass dome. It just won't. So kudos to Nauticam they try something new to extend their revenue stream but what is the expertise behind their lens R&D except for mathematical modeling really.... I'd say CaNiSoSig patents are worth something for a reason... glasses, coatings and all that... Not saying that their WACPs FCPs are worthless, not at all, they have their use cases but only people who can really benefit from these use cases should invest there, they definitely are not general public fix them all solution nor holy grails of underwater photography is what I think 🙂