39mp underwater

Troy,

Sunballs are a challenge because of the high dynamic range and the need to balance strobe and ambient light. The camera's base ISO, dynamic range, and strobe sync speed combined with the lens's maximum aperture and your strobe power determine how good it will be. There are also issues with color due to the spectrum of the sunball itself.

It's likely that one will immediately go to fastest allowable shutter speed, then stop down to f/16, or worse, trying to get exposure under control so the sunball isn't blown out. Obviously, DX camera users would prefer NOT to have to use f/16-f/22 due to diffraction. The new D300 and D3 have ISO 200 base so they give up another stop in that respect. It's not clear how good their low ISO settings are yet.

I'd expect that the MF's low base ISO combined with very high resolution and high diffraction limits offer a nice start, and their reputation for high dynamic range is what makes us interested in seeing how they do sunballs. This kind of shot is among the most challenging for underwater digital to handle.

Also, is it true that the H3D can strobe sync at 1/800? If that's so, then the H3D, at ISO 50, has a 2.5 - 3 stop advantage over 35mm DSLRs in controlling sunballs.

Hello Troy,

I also see the copyright issue... maybe you can choose a pic which is

technicaly (exposure/focus) fine but has no real value to you.

I will of course respect your rights but once something is out on the net

you never know...

A full size pic after postprocessing would be great. Macro or WA is not

important.

Hi Troy!

Here's a suggestion, from how we evaluate digital backs vs film (that is drum-scanned) in the studio: Among the most difficult tabletop scenes are coins & jewelry, and furry toys (specifically Gund). Although the furry toys wouldn't work underwater, coins & jewelry certainly would. Also, a comparison shot of the same shiny stuff on the counter would be helpful, too.

[Also, because these would be "throwaway" shots, copyright is not an issue -- Nobody would want to steal them! ]

Hello Mexwell,

 

Give me some specifics on the type set up you want to see and I will accomodate you. Please respect the copyright issues though.

 

Thank You,

troy

Hey Loftus,

I mentioned strobe just to illuminate a close subject with Sunball etc in the background.

Thanks

troy

Good Morning Graig,

Yes! The H3D can sync @ 800. I will post images soon as I can

troy

Hello Everyone,

Dan was right, The H3D can and will be able to upgrade the ISO to 800 and collect GPS Meta data in January with their new software. I have also discovered using 400 iso does not introduce digital noise due to any heat issue when inside housing. So the only real difference with the H3Dll is a larger LCD screen at the back which is of no real consequence to me due to the bright viewfinder. So, all major upgrades will be by way of firmware until mp's increase. I have not done any tech shots as of yet. We have had bad weather for awhile now. However, I went on a nite dive last nite which was my first time. Using the 120mm macro lens (semi-macro) was awesome. Focus was not an issue as far as focus hunting is concerned. I shot at iso 50 @1/125 F16. The camera can go up to F45 which I have not tested yet for its sharpness and greater D.O.F. That is to be seen. F16 gave me a very shallow D.O.F. Here are a few samples and its' cropability for printing. First image frame size is 1.87"x2.5". The second image is cropped and can be printed up to 16x22 with no quality loss at all. Limitations are evident for the super macro interests but, for me this is plenty enough with extreme sharp results and good real color detail.

Enjoy,

Troy.

another shot

troy

One more

troy

Troy,

Congratulations on the quality of the images you captured! To my eyes, at least, it makes the underwater shots I've seen from the Canon 1Ds-MkII seem amateurish.

The issue with the ISO being increased from 400 to 800 via firmware was due to the engineers at Hasselblad being a bit conservative, due to the CCD cooling issue. The H3DII does indeed use a different cooling scheme, though, using the entire chassis as a heat sink, instead of a fan.

[The thermodynamic calculations as to which cooling scheme will behave better inside your aluminum housing is above my pay grade. But, since you're already shooting at the equivalent ISO=50, cooling is not an issue...]

Be careful when stopping down below f/22, as that is getting down past the diffraction limit sweet spot for the circle of confusion for medium format size... With your 36x48mm frame size, the sweet spot is closer to f/16 than f/22. Of course, if you need the DOF, so be it; but before you stop down further, you can leverage the hyperfocal distances. Harold Merklinger has an excellent book (now in PDF) on camera focusing you can reference.

Congrats on the superb photos!

Dan

Hello Everyone,

 

Dan was right, The H3D can and will be able to upgrade the ISO to 800 and collect GPS Meta data in January with their new software. I have also discovered using 400 iso does not introduce digital noise due to any heat issue when inside housing. So the only real difference with the H3Dll is a larger LCD screen at the back which is of no real consequence to me due to the bright viewfinder. So, all major upgrades will be by way of firmware until mp's increase. I have not done any tech shots as of yet. We have had bad weather for awhile now. However, I went on a nite dive last nite which was my first time. Using the 120mm macro lens (semi-macro) was awesome. Focus was not an issue as far as focus hunting is concerned. I shot at iso 50 @1/125 F16. The camera can go up to F45 which I have not tested yet for its sharpness and greater D.O.F. That is to be seen. F16 gave me a very shallow D.O.F. Here are a few samples and its' cropability for printing. First image frame size is 1.87"x2.5". The second image is cropped and can be printed up to 16x22 with no quality loss at all. Limitations are evident for the super macro interests but, for me this is plenty enough with extreme sharp results and good real color detail.

 

Enjoy,

Troy.

Hi Troy, in my personal opinion with the juvy flamingo tongue one you prove the benefits of 39MP, but the last 2 didn´t say to much, maybe you could close your aperture a little more on your macros, because the lack of DOF didn´t surrender any significant details on the subject that we can appreciated.

Again my 2 cents.

Thanks Dan,

F22 will be at max only giving me 2-3mm more unless I simply pull back further for more dof and allow the cropability of 39mp work for me. Sharpening skills in post may allow to go higher in the f-stop. I will play with it and let you know. Do you have your plastic bag yet?

Troy

Felix,

Look closely at the material to the right of the fish: You'll see that the areas that are in focus are 1/3rd in front of the plane of focus, and 2/3rds behind this plane. [This is assuming, of course, that the body of the fish is on the plane of focus.]

Troy,

May I suggest that you bracket the aperture, i.e. f/16, f/22, f/32, & f/45, for a given scene, so you can actually evaluate the effects of diffraction vs DOF?

Hi Troy, in my personal opinion with the juvy flamingo tongue one you prove the benefits of 39MP, but the last 2 didn´t say to much, maybe you could close your aperture a little more on your macros, because the lack of DOF didn´t surrender any significant details on the subject that we can appreciated.

Thanks Rod, I will do that

Troy

Hi Troy!

I forgot -- Your H-series lens(es) may not be able to stop down below f/22. You should ask your Hasselblad rep (or even Christian Poulsen directly) if your lenses can be modified to go down to f/32, or even f/27.

No plastic bag yet: I may use a Rubbermaid tub from Wal-Mart with a (coated glass) flat port glued to the side instead!

Thanks Dan,

F22 will be at max only giving me 2-3mm more unless I simply pull back further for more dof and allow the cropability of 39mp work for me. Sharpening skills in post may allow to go higher in the f-stop. I will play with it and let you know. Do you have your plastic bag yet?

Troy

There's two ways to consider maximum f/stop that will lead to two different results. The first way is just like you would with film i.e. final print size and viewing distance. At a constant viewing angle, the H3D can stop down one full stop more than 35mm by virtue of it's larger sensor. Medium format is traditionally not used in this way since MF shooters are typically after larger print sizes (and viewing angles aren't constant as a result). It is a valid perspective though.

The second way is to consider pixel pitch. Since the H3D has a pixel size between a 1Ds2 and a 1Ds3, appropriate macro apertures will be similar. Using this approach preserves the maximum resolving power of the camera's sensor. It also means that an H3D is simply capable of about twice as a large a print.

I suspect f/32 is managable for some shots. Considering the relatively low power and magnification of the 120mm macro lens, I'd wonder if any more is really necessary.

Using cropping as a solution to the DOF problem is nothing more than throwing away the inherent advantages of the larger format.

Since the H3D has a pixel size between a 1Ds2 and a 1Ds3,

Using cropping as a solution to the DOF problem is nothing more than throwing away the inherent advantages of the larger format.

Hello Craig,

I did,t realize that the actual individual pixels of the 1Ds3 were larger than the H3D. Do you have specs on this?

Also are you saying the quality of capture is better on a 35mm DSLR when the H3D image is cropped. Do you have specs or images to back this up also? Resolution is one thing. Quality of capture is another. Alot of images I have seen, not all taken by 35mm dslr's that are super macro lack sharp clarity. They lack edge detail. Very few pull it off quite well. Can you post some of your super macro images to illustrate equally wha you are saying?

I believe when the 1ds3 goes u/w it will produce awesome results but, to say cropping the image created by the H3D is nothing more than throwing away the inherent advantages of the larger format, this sounds a bit strong.

Troy

Hello Dan,

I will bracket and yes H-series lenses can go to f45. The 120mm included. Spoke to Paul today actually regarding defraction,dof and focus. His recommendation was to stay below f22. so I will do some tests to illustrate how far I can push it. For the most part between f8-f16 is the sweet spot.

Troy

Since the H3D has a pixel size between a 1Ds2 and a 1Ds3,

 

Using cropping as a solution to the DOF problem is nothing more than throwing away the inherent advantages of the larger format.

Hello Craig,

 

I did,t realize that the actual individual pixels of the 1Ds3 were larger than the H3D. Do you have specs on this?

No, I'm saying that the pixels of the 1Ds2 are larger than the H3D. The 1Ds3 pixels are slightly smaller than the H3D. The difference between the 1Ds3 and H3D is roughly 10%. Considering the 1Ds3 is a newer technology from a manufacturer that designs its own sensors, has done so for a long time, and is in a higher volume, more competitive environment, I'm confident that the 1Ds3's pixels will perform as well as the H3D ones.

Also are you saying the quality of capture is better on a 35mm DSLR when the H3D image is cropped. Do you have specs or images to back this up also? Resolution is one thing. Quality of capture is another. Alot of images I have seen, not all taken by 35mm dslr's that are super macro lack sharp clarity. They lack edge detail. Very few pull it off quite well. Can you post some of your super macro images to illustrate equally wha you are saying?

No, I'm saying that cropping eats away at the potential advantages of a larger format, and I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to challenge that claim. Regarding posting images to prove my argument, I happen to know that web sized images are worthless for that even if you, and the other true believer here, don't realize it. Thumbnails from one camera can't make results from another camera look "amateurish". Even if they could, I doubt anyone in the world has taken side by side UW macro shots using a 1Ds2 and an H3D, so such images can't possibly exist. Nice try.

If "resolution is one thing" and "quality of capture is another", I challenge you to describe and demonstrate the difference. Just what do you think causes the H3D to offer a greater "quality of capture" than a 1Ds2 or 1Ds3 independent of resolution? It certainly isn't dynamic range since macro essentially never challenges a 35mm DSLR in that respect. It certainly isn't the H3D macro lenses since that's the H3D's achilles heel. The one advantage the H3d has is the larger sensor. If you are going to crop it away then it is useless.

Troy, I don't believe in magic. Your H3D works fundamentally the same way as a 1Ds2 or 3 does. If the H3D offers better imaging capability than 35mm under certain conditions then there will always be a technical explanation for it. When you shoot macro and crop your H3D sensor down to 35mm size you will be hard pressed to explain how it can possibly offer "quality of capture" better than a 1Ds3, particularly considering the Canon has REAL competition.

I believe when the 1ds3 goes u/w it will produce awesome results but, to say cropping the image created by the H3D is nothing more than throwing away the inherent advantages of the larger format, this sounds a bit strong.

 

Troy

No it's not a bit strong. You may choose, though, to believe that shooting a giant sensor and using a chiclet-sized piece of it will offer you superior results. Meanwhile, others will be comfortably outperforming you with "inferior" equipment. The difference is that they understand that MF isn't a magic bullet and that other factors, say proper lenses and ports, can play a critical role. Research sharpening as a solution to your macro lens problem if you think that will help. I'll tell you, though, that 35mm shooters have access to that, too.

Hi Dan,

Please elaborate a little bit on your statement below, because most probably you are capable of seeing things I can't see

Troy,

 

Congratulations on the quality of the images you captured! To my eyes, at least, it makes the underwater shots I've seen from the Canon 1Ds-MkII seem amateurish.

I agree with Felix on his comment and although there is an advantage of cropping, I’d rather know what I want up front and do everything I can to make that picture than try to make it work out later by cropping (except for minor adjustments of course).

Cheers

Vincent

Hi Troy!

Due to the decrease in the optimum aperture -- The sweet spot -- for a given film or CCD size due to the circle of confusion vs diffraction distortion, your sweet size is indeed f/16 to f/22. However, if you crop the image down to the size of a 35mm frame, then the circle of confusion increases in size and the sweet spot will drop to f/11.

All that being said, don't be afraid to tell the lens to stop down: If your H3D has an auto-bracket function, see if you can program it to hold the exposure value while shooting at f/22, f/27 & f/32; or, of course, you can manually turn the dial to stop down. Remembering that some image distortion is introduced by the port -- Especially the dome port -- you may not notice any softening or loss of contrast at the smaller apertures -- Even f/32.

My suggestion is to set up a quickie tabletop scene and test just the camera & lens on dry land, looking for distortion as you stop down. Then, repeat the test in a few feet of water, testing the whole optical path.

In any case, the 5412 x 7212 (39 million) pixel matrix is a whole hell of a lot to play with: If you output to a Durst Epsilon or Lambda photo printer at the highest quality setting of 254 pixels/inch and use 1:1 pixel mapping, that is a 21x28 inch print! A good printer RIP, like that found on the Durst imagers, can easily upsample 200% with image degredation it takes a magnifying glass to see, letting you print to a nominal 40x60 inch size. (We took 12 million pixel shots from Fuji S2 & S3 cameras up to 30x40 all the time in the lab!)

Also, don't forget that the software on your PC automatically corrects for chromatic distortion, since it reads the lens data and has the correction coefficients already built in.

Hello Dan,

 

I will bracket and yes H-series lenses can go to f45. The 120mm included. Spoke to Paul today actually regarding defraction,dof and focus. His recommendation was to stay below f22. so I will do some tests to illustrate how far I can push it. For the most part between f8-f16 is the sweet spot.