Shark wrangling with bait and pulling it out of the water

David,

While you are happily eating your plants, do you consider at all the animals that were harmed in order for you to get your plants to eat? For example, through:

* habitat destruction to make way for fields to grow the plants

* diversion of water from natural water ways to irrigate the plants

* direct killing of animals to prevent them from eating the plants

* run off of fertilisers and other chemicals used to grow the plants

* damage through the transport of the plants to you (road kill, greenhouse gases, etc.)

One large thread to the Great Barrier Reef is agriculture along the coast of Queensland - mostly for growing plants, e.g. sugar cane.

A well managed fishery will have far less impact on the environment than agriculture.

Basically, the best way to "save the earth" is to kill yourself and take as many people as you can with you. If enough people did this, we would be OK for awhile.

Since we can't do that, I try to make the best choices I can. I eat meat, but mostly if I know where it's from. I tend to favor local meat over some vegetable or fruit flown over an ocean. When the meat is anonymous, I usually don't eat it -- especially if it is from the ocean. But sometimes, I make exceptions and I don't beat myself up about it. I try not to eat too much meat, but mostly because the more I learn about industrialized meat, the less I want to eat it.

I'm glad David is a veggie. That means I can respect his opinion about killing animals. It is, however, hard to draw the line. I mean, I have a wooden desk, but I didn't cut down the tree nor make it into planks. And I left the mining of the metals in my car to some poor kids in a third-world country...

Basically, the best way to "save the earth" is to kill yourself and take as many people as you can with you. If enough people did this, we would be OK for awhile.

Yeah, very radical approach but also very true! Population control is the way forward I reckon! I love the quote in Matrix about humans being nothing more a virus...

In my quest to get more people to hate me, I'd like to share an idea. The next time someone here gets riled up and starts attacking someone he/she only knows by username, do this, instead:

 

1) Close Wetpixel

 

2) Go back to work for the 10 minutes you would have spent in anger

 

3) Take whatever money you made in that 10 minutes, and donate it to your favorite shark conservation cause

 

The point is that we're all on the same side here. We all LIKE sharks, but we all choose to interact with them in different ways. Our interaction and sharing of media spreads the word about how cool sharks are and how much in danger they are in due to finning industry.

 

Or, you can continue to fight with each other, which would be in line with what the shark community is really best at (see the Shark-L listserv for more). And please remember to do it politely, and with respect for your fellow Wetpixel members.

Eric RESPECT!

The best posting in years :-)

OK this is getting a little crazy here!

Now i almost responsible for all the problems in the world :-)

So i think we have to lissen to Eric and Kill ourselfs so fast if possible!

OK this is getting a little crazy here!

Now i almost responsible for all the problems in the world :-)

So i think we have to lissen to Eric and Kill ourselfs so fast if possible!

Only the guilty!

Some Buddhists do not walk without sweeping the ground before them, so as to avoid stepping on insects.

One eastern philosopher stated, "A gentleman should stat out of the kitchen," the thought being, it is not a good idea to see how an animal is butchered and prepared if you want to enjoy the meal in its final state.

Where you draw the line is entirely up to you. I only think that one should consider the question and be guided by their conscience.

Alternatively, next time you see roadkill, say to yourself, Hmm, I think I'd like to eat that. See if you can think it convincingly. Then when you go to dinner and the slab of dead animal is on your plate, you can think, "Hmm, this dead animal on my plate sure is appetiziing"

I have to eat. I do not have to kill in order to eat. A "well-managed fishery" is nothing more than controlled killing of animals that you KNOW are not required to be killed. Killing animals because they "taste great" really is no justification at all, and quite frankly, Jeffrey Dahmer could easily have justified killing people because they pleased his tummy.

Of course, in choosing between the life of an innocent cow and an innocent (or even not so innocent) person, I'd choose the person every time. And when choosing between the life of an innocent cow and the baked ziti, peanut butter and jelly sandwich, pasta salad, cous cous, rice and beans, hummus or whatever, I can confidently say, let the cow live, it isn't hurting anybody, and it isn't pleasant being slaughtered.

I would gladly chop down my own tree and grow my own vegetables. That's how I know its okay to kill trees and vegetables. So, I am not bothered by paying for someone else to do it for me. I would not gladly kill an animal, so for me, I know its wrong to have others kill them for me.

The business of meat is quite disgusting. If you won't eat a brain, kidney or liver, why would you eat the dead flesh of the animal? Its equally disgusting. But, if you are among the few who enjoy eating all manner of dead things, I doubt self-reflection will alter your views on things. And if the thought of eating brains and kidneys is not enough to gross you out, consider the fact that the the e-coli comes from the feces of the animal, and the reason you have to cook the meat so well is to avoid infecting yourself with bacteria-infested animal crap that is smeared all over the carcass in the slaughtering process.

Another reason why one should "do it yourself" when preparing a dead animal for consumption.

Any one of these reasons is enough to keep me from killing an animal.

By the way, in Finland, and I am sure other countries, they do indeed eat roadkill. If you run into a moose out there, and manage to survive it, the police or town locals will not let the animal go to waste.

Which reminds me... there are some folks who will only eat meat that dies a natural death. And in some villages near the Himalayas, I have heard it said that there are many a yak that have "fallen off the mountain" according to the street vendors selling the yak meat. Again, "what you don't know, often makes you feel better" and it is better to stay out of the kitchen, or in this case, to stay away from where the animal actually died, so you can believe it fell off the mountain!

Compassion and conscience should drive us, I agree ... But I don't agree with your logic.

By your logic, brain surgery is "wrong" because most of us would be too grossed out to perform the necessary act.

The Buddha had 800 students, and to each he gave a different Dharma. You have your path to walk and others theirs ... the "middle way" is a wide highway and is different for each of us.

P.S. - I believe it is the "Jain" who are the ones most well-known for sweeping roads, counting/limiting steps, etc to minimize their impact on the world and its tiny creatures. There may be Buddhists who do the same, but I think it is originally a Jain tradition.

Cool... now I can learn about religious beliefs about critters on Wetpixel too!

Compassion and conscience should drive us, I agree ... But I don't agree with your logic.

 

By your logic, brain surgery is "wrong" because most of us would be too grossed out to perform the necessary act.

 

The Buddha had 800 students, and to each he gave a different Dharma. You have your path to walk and others theirs ... the "middle way" is a wide highway and is different for each of us.

 

P.S. - I believe it is the "Jain" who are the ones most well-known for sweeping roads, counting/limiting steps, etc to minimize their impact on the world and its tiny creatures. There may be Buddhists who do the same, but I think it is originally a Jain tradition.

Bran surgery has nothing to do with it. It is not the grossness of the gore to which I refer, but to the moral repugnancy one feels when contemplating setting fire to puppies, kittens, etc. Creating suffering is gross. Wrong. Whatever you want to call it. If you had to kill the animal yourself, you'd see the suffering. Whether it moved you or not, that's another issue.

And eating meat has nothing to do with setting fire to kittens ... One man's "morality" is another man's nonsense.

I have no moral issues whatsoever with the slaughter of animals for my nourishment.

...and let's not forget man's inhumanity to man.

Jeffrety Dahmer had no problem eating people for his nourishment either. Doesn't make it right. Its simply unnecessary to kill people, or animals for your nourishment. Its the unnecessary killing that is wrong. Setting fire to kittens, also unnecessary. The logic is there if you look.

This is not going to end. No vegetarian zealot can convince a meat eater not to eat meat, especially if they aren't taking advantage of reason nor respect in the discussion. I am out. David, your logic doesn't work. It's dogma you're spewing.

come on bruno, tell us it wasnt really a shark hanging from the rope, it was a sea gul. but the angle in which you took the footage made it look like a shark ( your good ) also it wasnt actually filmed in the bahamas it was actually filmed deep inside of the amazon, it was just excellent editing to make it look as if it was in the bahamas.

i stand by my original comments about this footage.

 

how about someone coming around my house and swinging one of my dogs around by its tail so i can video it.

Stew

I'm a little confused with your statements here. Are you being facetious or sarcastic? The subtle incoherence of your 1st paragraph's logic suggests to me you need to take Eric's advice about closing WP windows for awhile. How does it pertain to the wrangling of the sharks?

Many dogs I've seen or played with love to bite on a rope and won't let go even when they are hanging off the ground. This is particularly true my golden retrievers which I had as a kid growing up. Now my mother complained to me that while the dogs enjoyed it, it was bad for their spine. I would think that's probably true for humans doing a plethora of sports which are bad for us (boxing, serious tennis etc etc) but we're stupid enough that we keep doing it. I also know that if I were to be cruel and kick my dog (I wouldn't btw!) it would let go.

It's quite clear in the video ( I know Youtube is bad but it's not so bad you can't see the difference between the head and tail of a shark) the shark is holding on to the bait despite being in the air and out of the water.

I brought this subject up in Conservation to discuss the ethics of wrangling a shark and yanking it out of the water.

David, the fish unions do meet on thursday but they try to focus on things like fishing quotas and water quality. JASA tries to use fish waste from restaurants as bait. I personally wish there wasn't this kind of wastage anyhow but it's there so why waste it?

You want to see wastage, check out orcas. They kill big whales just to eat certain parts of the body. However, the carcass feeds the rest of the sea dwellers. Now if you argue the moral/ethical attributes of the wrangling, I suspect you will find people will listen more.

Simon, it's been established in the thread that Giles linked that the antics of the divers WERE NOT during a shark baited dive. It's not hard to see that, at least not for me. I do wish people can see that and failing that, at least give someone they don't know the benefit of doubt.

Stew

I'm a little confused with your statements here. Are you being facetious or sarcastic?

i was trying to bring a little humour to the topic. tongue in cheek, nothing i wrote that you are talking about was meant to be read as an attack or written with anger, rage, or hormonal problems. if what i wrote come across like theat, then, one must apologise.

PS i dont even have any dogs !!!!!!

Not feelin' much of that mutual respect at the moment ... I think I've just been told I'm a thoughtless, heartless serial killer because I eat meat.

Must be time for a cheeseburger! See you guys later ...

P.S. I don't like seeing sharks baited like that ... but I'm not gonna outlaw it ... I want people NOT to want to do that because they come to that conclusion on their own ... I don't think the people are bad people ... I just wouldn't do what they did.

P.P.S In case you'd like to learn more about what Jeffrey Dahmer actually thought ...

Link to the Jeffrey Dahmer's own words

Boy, I'm trying to make some sense of this thread, as it's sure veered off course and became personal etc. How did we get to Jeffrey Dahmer from shark diving in the Bahamas?

I watched the video one more time, and in the context of all these discussions I can only see three things for discussion that do not veer way off topic:

1. Are the antics, karate chopping, etc funny? I personally do not think so, but others might think so, no problem. That's cool, enjoy!.

I think the choice of song and title are mildly amusing in a punny sort of way.

2. Does the video give the impression that the dive activity was somewhat chaotic and unsafe? I thought it did, but you video types and Bruno pointed out how the film was made, and I take Bruno at his word that none of this 'funny' stuff was going on when there was any possibility of Tigers or Bulls close by. From my own observation of Lemons, they probably were unfazed by this activity.

But....take a little responsibility for the fact that your video creation through sleight of hand, maybe generated some misconceptions, at a time when folks are sensitive about shark attacks in the Bahamas.

Photography is a powerful medium

3. Is the way the shark is being dragged out of the water maybe a little excessive; I think so, but do I think the wranglers ought to be shot for it? No. Maybe just cool it a little.

Points 1 & 2 were part of the other thread Point 3 is what this thread is about.

Beyond this, any discussion is likely to get pretty emotional, off thread, and personal without resolution; shark baiters vs non-baiters, meat eaters vs vegetarians, strict non-touchers vs safe interactors.

I'm out too. Thought I was before though. <_<

Boy, I'm trying to make some sense of this thread, as it's sure veered off course and became personal etc. How did we get to Jeffrey Dahmer from shark diving in the Bahamas?

I watched the video one more time, and in the context of all these discussions I can only see three things for discussion that do not veer way off topic:

It does seem to have veered a bit I did have some general thoughts/questions

Simon, it's been established in the thread that Giles linked that the antics of the divers WERE NOT during a shark baited dive. It's not hard to see that, at least not for me. I do wish people can see that and failing that, at least give someone they don't know the benefit of doubt.

As noted there were cuts and so forth which gave the impression that actions may have occurred in the main baiting, and the main actions were not during those times. But the part that I still find a bit difficult to reconcile is that Bruno pointed out a couple of things that could raise questions regarding the operator and general diver actions, in the context of interacting with the marine life.

This thread is a discussion about the actions of the operator in the video. To me, they are 2 separate things.

As Bruno mentioned:

Offcourse the tigers are not always around so we had allot of time watching the Lemons sharks that are always in big numbers around.

 

Like sombody noticed the lemons realy are not intrested in divers or whatever they are just swimming around, and waiting to get a nice fish now and then.

 

So to repead myself all the crazy shots are filmed away from the bait etc, you will see only a few lemon sharks wondering around not in the bigg numbers like we have when baiting them!

Then about the stick incident, first if you watch closse enough or see it in good quality (youtube sucks) you will see the stick is more then a meter away from the shark, and it was never the intention to trow to the shark!

As Drew noted about the Lemon Sharks behavior:

On my just 2nd viewing, I see only 2 scenes where close proximity interaction with lemon sharks where the kungfu stuff was going on. Were these done on the baited dives where the big tigers were around or were the lemon sharks just around while the guys were out having fun? Can anyone tell? I surely can not. I can say with more certainty that the lemon shark behavior of swimming around divers etc is a result of constant bait/feeding interaction.

So though some of the things in the video were edits, there was still some horseplay/faux karate shots near or at the sharks.

The Lemon Sharks may have just wandered into the scene, but it seems that they were more then merely passing into the scene - they seemed to be in the area and as you noted it may be due to the baiting. There is a difference between behavior in the main bait area and outside the main area with a few seemingly disinterested Lemon Sharks (though as you noted the Lemon Shark behavior could have been influenced by the baiting) but that may be a bit of a fine line as to when actions could be considered acceptable.

As to the pole portion, though there was no intent to throw the pole at the shark, the pole was thrown in an area where there were sharks.

It may all tie back to knowledge and skill as to what is acceptable, much in the same way in the Nudibranch discussion there was a level of expertise and planning in the shots that many could not approach. Bruno chartered the boat and is plannning the UW Olympic video so I will go with that and creative editing I guess, though I would personally be hesitant to do some of these things around sharks myself.

I would gladly chop down my own tree and grow my own vegetables. That's how I know its okay to kill trees and vegetables. So, I am not bothered by paying for someone else to do it for me. I would not gladly kill an animal, so for me, I know its wrong to have others kill them for me.

But that is just the point. You are gladly paying for someone to kill animals for you. Your eating of plants will result in the death of animals (whether you want to believe it or not).

I have no problem with people choosing to be vegetarians. I have a problem with people sitting on their high horse telling others they are better than them when they themselves are guilty of the actions they are attributing to the others.