Reef hooks & pointers

Giles, I'm not an expert on the different seasons in these places etc, so I can only speak from my limited experience. When we were at Darwin for example, the object of most of the dives was literally to sit on the rocky platform and watch the hammers, Galapagos sharks etc go by, and hope from time to time that they would come in close enough for some good shots. With the strong currents (which were too strong for anyone to fight for more than a minute or two) and surges, a reef hook was much more stable than holding on, losing your grip with a surge, regrabbing etc. I did not have a reef hook with me, and borrowed one for some of the dives,and I think I did less damage, then when I was continuously being bashed about by the current. Also much of this was bare rock, so I do not think the hook did any significant damage. Once the decision was made to stop watching the hammers, either at the end of the dive or if we were trying to chase after a whale shark (usually futile), the dive was over except for swimming out into the blue where the pangas would pick us up. This is one situation where I think a reef hook was helpful, saved energy, added safety, and did little or no damage.

Oh, to echo Jame's sentiment not this "no touching" of the marine substrate topic again.....Now I know why I keep beer in my fridge to numb myself

Giles, we've met very briefly on the Sunset House iron shore, so no harm is intended by the comments below and hopefully we'll have a beer in December when I return to Cayman at My Bar

If you haven't been to places in PNG, Palau or others where yes, dive operations offer high voltage dives where a reef hook is the only way to SEE anything and survive then you can't condemn what you ain't done......And yeah, they offer dives to make money just like where you work buddy It IS a tourist industry, right? Not an altruistic endeavor.......

James, same thing (especially about sharing a beer!) but enough with the Fundies (DIR, i.e. DOING IT RIGHT propaganda) and NEVER touching anything. It doesn't exist except in textbooks.....I've seen techies here in my local QUARRIES who still touch the bottom, side, etc. all while pretending to fold their hands in front of them in the "tech pose" and chant to their DIR God.......God forbid they go to an ocean and have to deal with moving water. Hell all they're doing 99% of the time is practicing helicopter turns, reverse fins kicks and not even diving to see anything...(OK, rant over

I had a customer give me a plastic 12" long stick and little rubber mounts he'd slide under his housing as a pointer. Doubt I'll use it but I've seen guides AND divers AND photographers chase critters out with their hands, arms, fins, etc. So it's not having a stick but what divers just do in the obsessiveness to get a photo or see a critter. Personally I can dig my index finger into the sand bottom and hold myself fins up for no silting pretty much OK.....Without gloves, too! Don't even usually need a manicure afterward if you are gentle and plodding like this old geezer......So the stick will likely not go along on my dives.

Good buoyancy with minimal weighting, in water practice and having the idea of "treading gently" in our beloved environment is the key. In many cases a pointer to steady oneself in a current or reef hook to see sharks and jacks swirling about are both less harmful than trying to fight Mother Nature.

Hope everyone takes my humble comments as intended.......

YMMV

dhaas

P.S. - One more thing about "tapping" if a guide or diver finds something cool. It CAN be used effectively, not banging loudly and many critters ignore it anyway.....But then I used to LOVE watching a travel customer bang as hard as he could on his TANK with his GAUGE CONSOLE to attract his wife and then wonder why his depth gauge wasn't accurate, etc. The "shakers" and BB gizmos aren't as annoying as certain dive computers continually beeping from ascending 1.5' or so

Cor,

Even when I have dived sites like Cocos, New Guniea, Palau, Indo etc I have never used a reef hook. Yes you have to hold on but without gloves you look where you are putting you hands.

And yes if you can't hold position for a safety stop carry a surface maker buoy and a reel.... The boat can see you while on stop and you won't be exhausted...

Taking one along is an admission that you will be touching something.

I've watched dive guides use the pointer to kill enough critters trying to get them out of their holes that I've had it with pointers. There's no doubt that most guides using them touch and manipulate the reef and animals far more than I do with my bare fingers. Which begs the question, why are they special and allowed to do so, but will chew out guests that do the same thing?

Sheesh. If a diver needs a pointer that bad, go take a Fundies class.

My question is ... if you have to use a hook to make the dive diveable, why are you diving in that environment.

Yes I saw the list of places Drew put out there, all well known desired dive spots. But surely if there were no hooks used there would be times when you could dive without a current, is this just a business thing to make it year round diveable ? if so thats wrong.

 

With all the dive destinations in the world I don't see why ones which need hooks to dig in and control you are AS populated with diver tourists as they are.

 

Now I know people are going to tell me "you have to use a hook at these places" YES i get that, but why are these places being dived by recreational divers then .. I am looking for an honest look at that, I am sure it all comes down to someone making a buck.

To use Drew's example of Peleliu, the site itself is entirely barren so a hook won't cause damage. The reason people dive there, obviously, is the action. When the current isn't screaming the action isn't as good.

Don't know why this is hard to understand other than people not having experienced it. I've used a hook there and it's perfectly reasonable. I've also used a hook to tie up to a piling to assist someone who was low on air. I carry one because it is potentially useful. Like everything, it is simply a tool. Tools aren't damaging, stupid uses of them are.

A pointer, on the other hand, is a marvelous tool. I have one in my hand always when shooting macro.

Woah, cool it Writepic! I've dived Jackson more than a couple of times and there are lots of places with dead corals or rocks where you can hook up without damaging live coral. And the people "floating along" in their BCs were caught in a powerful current. Having one or two of the group hooked up gave the RIB time to pick up those who were at greatest risk of being swept away.

So acting responsibly was the name of the game: and readers should know there are options available which, with sensible use, are safe both for the environment and the diver.

So go easy with the "idiots like you stuff" eh? One of the good things about Wetpixel is the lack of abuse......

Ok people, let's remember that WP does not condone personal attacks so let's keep this thread on topic without insults.

Very interesting responses to this topic… I was actually expecting many more negative responses to this. I’ve been getting a little wound up recently at the miss use of these and wanted to see what others thought before I took any action!

Many years ago I’d seen how much abuse and damage reef hooks do when your average diver uses reef hooks without proper instruction. Come on now, tell me how many of you have heard a dive guide brief the group on how to use a reef hook? Remember the average diver doesn’t really know the difference between what is OK to hook onto and what is not. I thought all divers would have more awareness to this, though over the years I’ve seen this is certainly not the case. We’ve got to realize that many divers only dive once a year, many are business people some of whom are living stressfull lives and don’t keep learning about the oceanic environment like many Wetpixel members probably would!

Someone I was working for years ago decided that in order to dive a few known current sites here in Indonesia (Komodo) he’d give out reef hooks and offer them for sale too. Yes, he simply wanted to hit all the big well known sites on the itinerary without working out currents etc! The problem with this was that he didn't bother giving out any instruction on how to use such a reef hook and the sites we were diving didn’t have many decent places to hook such a destructive device (when in the wrong hands!). I quickly took this into my own hands and started to brief divers on how to use these, then when seeing that that tactic didn’t work so well I basically got rid of the reef hooks and spent more time ensuring we weren’t diving in current. As shooter you’re not going to get many decent shots on high voltage current dives anyway. Even the marine life stays away from many of the stronger currents here in Indonesia, when currents are too strong the dive is just pointless, other than for adrenalin junkies who in my mind should charter their own boat or stay away from join in trips!

I know that dive shops and even resorts and liveaboards are now selling pointers to their clients. Yeah great, more money to cash in on! Sadly again the majority of divers don’t have enough knowledge to take one of these in their hands. I think at least, they should come with notes on how to and not to use them.

POINTERS - Years ago dive guides used pointers to point out marine life to their clients and at times coax marine life into a more photographic pose, “without actually touching the animalâ€. However now it seems that every Tom, Dick & Harry carries one of these. What it’s doing in my mind is making divers really lazy! There are some who seem to have the attitude that you don’t need to worry about buoyancy, with a stick you can easily hold yourself steady! OK if you are really careful, though again, the majority of divers are not as knowledgeable as your average Wetpixel blogger!

I think that now I’m going to start briefing divers on the use of these two devices before they even put a wetsuit on. I think all operators should start thinking about doing this, if they care that is!

hmm... dunno graham, the DM's in Palau (Pacific Explorer) did a very thorough job of walking those new to reef hooks on how to properly use them, what not to hook into, and also to avoid letting one dangle and drag along any coral. But kudos to you Graham... I think that should definitely be part of every DM's dive briefing if reef hooks are to be used. I have no idea what Blue Corner looked like before divers started to hook in. I suspect it wouldn't be any different if hooks were banned as divers crawled around the reef with their hands and what-not dangling/ dragging along the reef. Would be a boring short dive if you didn't hook in or hold on on Blue Corner and Peliliu Express . No current, No show (although there are some interesting stuff on top of Blue Corner)...

I was in Malapascua and I had to forgo not being able to use my pointer (shop rules - no pointers/ no gloves). Fine, but the DM had one and at one point was harassing seahorses with his pointer trying to get them to pose or move out for the divers to see (talk about the hypocrisy). On the no glove part, half our group had stings/ swelling on their fingers from having to pull themselves down the mooring line at Monad shoal against a mild current. Pointers, on the other hand, would have been useless on these thresher shark dives other than having more people banging on their tanks... But what's the use of telling people no gloves, but at the same telling people to kneel on the corals to wait for threshers?

Personally, I am pro pointers, hooks, and gloves. That and some general common sense...

And the go fundies comments, I'm laughing too hard to even respond to that, fdog. Reminds me of a dive we had in Puerto Galera. Most of us were enjoying the dive, looking at pygmy seahorses and other critters around the Dry Dock. A couple of "DIR" type were sitting there practicing their uber hovering skills, arms out in their superman poses, fins up, and oblivious to picturesque stuff around them... I guess whatever floats your boat.

I have never used a reef hook. Yes you have to hold on but without gloves you look where you are putting you hands.

Uhh...ok. I'll just put my hook next to your hand to be safe then

Come on now, tell me how many of you have heard a dive guide brief the group on how to use a reef hook?

Almost every single time I did a dive that would benefit from a reef hook the group was briefed. Either by the dive guides, the group leader, or even a diver. Just speak up and tell the guides to brief everyone.

Im not saying a reef hook should be used every time a bit of current comes along, on the contrary. But there are times when a reef hook can make or break a dive. And if you prefer to use your hands for that (with proper placement as well), more power to you.

On the Tahiti Aggressor we used to give out reef hooks to all guests and give them a complimentary 45min course on how to dive in current.

EDIT: Oops my quote disappeared!

..

I like carrying a pointer in Indo, they are useful when guiding for putting in the sand in the current and banging on a tank.

They are also equally useful for 'harrassing' the wildlife, but it's upto the paying guests to inform a guide if he's going too far with his poking! The critter spotters do sometimes go a little too far, but they wont be offended if you tell them to stop doing it underwater - they are just trying to make you happy.

Uhh...ok. I'll just put my hook next to your hand to be safe then

hehe... Cor, no just hook into his tank band...

Cor,

I now don't dive sites where I need to brief anyone about the use of reef hooks. I prefer to dive current sites when the tide is right. I have many divers who come back time and time again simply because I keep them safe and away from currents. Even when there's a bit of current they give me hell - in a funny way!

I think you've dived quite a bit in Indonesia and I'm sure you know that there aren't many places to hook into over here without doing some damage.

Have you ever seen anyone do damage with a reef hook?

Ive personally never used my hook in Indonesia that I can remember. Never had the need to. None of the dives ive done there warranted a hook. Even with strong currents (like in komodo) i was able to find some hidyhole without current. I think if you look carefully you can find a spot to put a hook, but if you cant, dont use it

Ive definitely seen people do damage with hooks. Ive even moved people's hooks underwater or told them to move it. But relative to fins, hands, or even cameras i think its next to nothing. That is my experience, not necessarily someone elses.

One more comment on reef hooks and gloves.........

The small "footprint" of a reef hook and watching where the line goes when you slightly inflate your BC is the key to not ripping off soft corals, etc. As Graham and many others mentioned showing someone how to use one properly is best.

On gloves I agree with Pakman, too. I dive lots of places where gloves are a no no and I can recognize stinging hydroids growing on a descent line, what is dead substrate versus live animal, etc. but many divers can't Given the choice I wear gloves but don't use them as an excuse to grab anything.....

What's funny about gloves is everyone preaching about no gloves is good in theory to protect the environment. But then a while back when I posted a few shots of a neutrally buoyant videographer steadying himself with ONE FINGER and THUMB on dead substrate I got dinged for posting a photo of a diver "holding on to coral".

Geez people get a grip on reality.....I obviously wouldn't even photograph a diver holding on to live coral!

As discussed it's more about knowledge and less about what gizmos you decide to take in the water on your dives.

Just one old guy's 2 cents

dhaas

Pakman, on Monad a lot of the 'coral' is pretty barren rock. Plus the bomb fishing that is practiced there occasionally also help with the moonscape look. And yes it's usually done in the afternoon after all the thresher hunters are gone.

There are many sites where doing the site right means in current for the pelagics. And for viewing pleasure, that means hooks in dead rock. I've been on a few sites where the coral growth was so good I had a lot of difficulty finding a barren spot to hook in. But there's always a spot somewhere and if not, just look until you find one. Usually the DM will know where to hook up. If it's an exploratory site, then choose to be smart about where to hook in.

Condemning the tool is easy esp. when we have no personal experience with certain diving. Saying that a hook, a pointer or a glove indicates a bad diver is the trademark of the intellectually lazy. When I was handed a reef hook on my first Palau trip I reacted as many do. After my first dive where I used it I understood. Same thing with pointers and gloves. It's not the things that are the problem, it's people's behavior underwater that is.

The depressing thing is that there are divers here with vastly more experience than many of us ever hope to have yet confrontational attitudes on these subjects ensure that they won't participate. There is no greater example, and opportunity, than the recent DD nudibranch thread. How great would it have been to have DD himself discuss the issues there. Instead, that thread degenerated as they all do. We blew perhaps the best opportunity ever to have a great discussion on ethical "manipulation" of subjects from a true master.

99% of us believe in the same thing even if few agree on specifics. There should be a single, non-hypocritical standard for behavior that results in sustainable enjoyment of the environment for all of us. It should not be "anything goes" but it will not be "nothing goes" either. It should be reasoned and it will evolve as our understanding advances. None of us holds all the answers but there are some that know more than most ever will. It's a tragedy if those people are discouraged from participating.

Forums such as Wetpixel are an opportunity for us to interact with likeminded people and to advance our understanding of what we do. When we use it to condemn what we don't like or don't even understand, we aren't listening and aren't learning. Ultimately we squander what we have. WP attracts the most advanced, the most experienced, the most elite shooters in our field. Learning from them is a great opportunity WP offers us.

True Confessions:

I wear gloves when I dive to protect my hands from the sun topside and a little added warmth while in the water. I cut the ends of the fingers out of the gloves. Even the A. R. dive guides on Little Cayman didn’t have a problem with this.

As previously noted by several respondents, these tools can be utilized responsibly.

Pax vobis cum,

Bob

Forums such as Wetpixel are an opportunity for us to interact with likeminded people and to advance our understanding of what we do. When we use it to condemn what we don't like or don't even understand, we aren't listening and aren't learning. Ultimately we squander what we have. WP attracts the most advanced, the most experienced, the most elite shooters in our field. Learning from them is a great opportunity WP offers us.

Ok, who are you and what have you done with Craig?

What Craig says is very true. If we all deal in different absolutes, then we'll never agree, even to disagree. There are circumstances that warrant the use of such tools, and there are inappropriate instances. We all make errors and hopefully it's not too big a mistake and we can learn from it.

The nudibranch thread and this one does deal with the fundamental issue which we will never have unanimous consensus about... our interaction in the underwater world. To force doctrine onto others is something that seldom works and just causes conflict for no good reason. Discussions like these allow people to see the many viewpoints and decide for themselves.

Unlike Cor, I don't care if we don't get along because you're all wrong and I'm right. But I do respect that you are entitled to be wrong and deluded and will leave you in your erroneous ways.

If you haven't been to places in PNG, Palau or others where yes, dive operations offer high voltage dives where a reef hook is the only way to SEE anything and survive then you can't condemn what you ain't done......And yeah, they offer dives to make money just like where you work buddy It IS a tourist industry, right?

I don't think I ever condemned the use of hooks, I said I personally thought there was no need for them, I was merely asking if the diving is that harsh you need a hook to Survive .. how did it become so touristy ? Would there be any dive business without these Hook dives. I am asking these questions as I have not been to a place where you have to use them, so I was curious about how a business would sustain itself there. And so I wondered why they set up, it is not always tourism, it could be an alternative that adds to it's business with very limited tourism.

A pointer, on the other hand, is a marvelous tool. I have one in my hand always when shooting macro.

I need to see what a pointer is then I was imagining a telescopic steel presentation pointer as I have seen people using. I don't see how one would be usefull for many of the uses people have mentioned here, specifically while taking a photo, i don't have a spare hand when shooting normally.