Reef hooks & pointers

<snip>And the go fundies comments, I'm laughing too hard to even respond to that, fdog. Reminds me of a dive we had in Puerto Galera. Most of us were enjoying the dive, looking at pygmy seahorses and other critters around the Dry Dock. A couple of "DIR" type were sitting there practicing their uber hovering skills, arms out in their superman poses, fins up, and oblivious to picturesque stuff around them... I guess whatever floats your boat.

Hey! Folks that know me would laugh. For the record, I:

• Do NOT have a DIR-F card
  
• Hence, do NOT have any certs from GUE
  
• and wouldn't be accecpted anyway, because of independent thinking
  

(I do have the skill set, minus the kool-aide.)

I pulled out the Fundies reference because it was the closest thing handy, that refered to a class with emphasis on bouyancy and precision propulsion, with a high standard required for passing. <sigh>

<snip>. It's not the things that are the problem, it's people's behavior underwater that is.

 

<snip>

It's a generalization, but back then if you saw someone with a pointer you would assume that they knew what they were about, with some pretty good skillz.

Now, the tide has turned, so to speak. You see pointers in the hands of everyone, and at least where I've been diving lately, they are all universally misused. Even by the dive guides who should know better, digging out creatures for viewing somewhat like digging an egg out of a cup. In fact I witnessed a guide in Fiji writing graffiti on coral using a pointer like a scribe.... and the casual recreational divers using them like pogo sticks to fend themselves off of living coral.

It's pretty obvious by such behavior what the mindset is: because it's not my actual body part, I can touch with impunity.

I've seen enough of this behavior that I've mentally pidgenholed the pointer with gloves.

OF COURSE wearing gloves or using a pointer doesn't make you an incompetent diver. I'm sure that my Tech1 equivalent skills would keep me off the reef regardless of my wearing gloves; and I'm equally sure that you, Craig, use pinpoint placement of the pointer and it is a real tool for you, that actually helps you prevent damage.

However, the uninformed abuse is there and growing, and the day may come when pointer use is restricted, just as glove use is.

All the best, James

I don't think I ever condemned the use of hooks, I said I personally thought there was no need for them, I was merely asking if the diving is that harsh you need a hook to Survive .. how did it become so touristy ? Would there be any dive business without these Hook dives. I am asking these questions as I have not been to a place where you have to use them, so I was curious about how a business would sustain itself there. And so I wondered why they set up, it is not always tourism, it could be an alternative that adds to it's business with very limited tourism.

Good question Giles. I'd be curious to hear from anyone here who might have worked in Palau in the early days and how the hooks caught on and whether there was any substantial coral at Blue Corner before the hooking caught on. Would there be more coral at Blue Corner if reef hooks were never introduced? I suspect not if people were only allowed to use hands. If they weren't allowed to touch/ hook in, I don't think Palau would have gotten as popular as it is today.

Not a good shot but here's a few divers hooked in at Blue Corner. What you can't see is the parade of pelagics off to the right.

Did we need to hook in to survive? Not really as you can see from the DM w/ videocam swimming out (in short spurts). It just made the show more enjoyable while remaining relaxed and conserving air instead of either zipping by really fast or burning through your tank in 15min if try to stay stationary against the current.

But I do recall hearing about a diver dying while hooked in at Peliliu Express years ago. Don't know the exact circumstances but sounded like the currents were just too rough when hooked in.

Now, the tide has turned, so to speak. You see pointers in the hands of everyone, and at least where I've been diving lately, they are all universally misused. Even by the dive guides who should know better, digging out creatures for viewing somewhat like digging an egg out of a cup. In fact I witnessed a guide in Fiji writing graffiti on coral using a pointer like a scribe.... and the casual recreational divers using them like pogo sticks to fend themselves off of living coral.

Versus the recreational diver grabbing the same coral bare handed, I think the coral would opted for the poke. Look, I saw those with and without sticks on my last trip and those that used a hand, for the same reasons professed on here, were doing vastly more damage to the coral that those with. BTW..buoyancy skill has very little to do with the argument here. Surge and current override anyone's ability on occasion and if you're next to a wall, pier leg or coral head when it happens, its far better for the health of the coral for you to be anchored and able to withstand it, than to get slammed into it.

I was first in Palau in 93 and dives with Francis Toriboing. I know Francis advanced the use of the hook. I was loaned a homemade one specifically for Blue Corner while diving with him. We could ask Tim Rock who reads the forum about how it was before that. I'll ask some older photogs about the 80s and 70s.

Btw, the PC term for the hooks is "current" hook.

Craig said:

The depressing thing is that there are divers here with vastly more experience than many of us ever hope to have yet confrontational attitudes on these subjects ensure that they won't participate. There is no greater example, and opportunity, than the recent DD nudibranch thread. How great would it have been to have DD himself discuss the issues there. Instead, that thread degenerated as they all do. We blew perhaps the best opportunity ever to have a great discussion on ethical "manipulation" of subjects from a true master.

Craig, this is so true. The DD nudibranch thread is a perfect example of all the good and the bad that can come from a public forum such as Wetpixel. I'm sure that DD was closely monitoring that thread and I bet if more people were willing to LISTEN and less people to TALK he may have participated.

Unfortunately, it's hard to just listen - because if no one posts then there is no thread in the first place :-)

In any case, I think discussions like this one are great - because they relate to photography - however, I will never condone a "my way or the highway" attitude.

Regards,

James Wiseman

"no touching" of the marine substrate.

Did someone really say this? If so, I hope this person doesn't go on treks or walk on the grass...

First Graham,

"no touching of the marine substrate" was likely not mentioned in those exact written words. I just paraphrased it to illustrate the concept people preach.

A friend stopped by today who has dived Blue Corner and other similar areas and as shown by Pakman's photo also did it without a "current hook" swimming for short bursts out into the blue, then returning and holding one finger on a dead area with fins up completing the dive without killing things. So it can be done, but for most recreational divers it is easier to properly deploy a hook and rest.

James, AKA fDog I'm glad you have a sense of humor about DIR / GUE / Kool Aide I didn't intend any insults and hope the message came through.....

Finally, I had to laugh about Craig's response and comments on it. And this is from someone who has argued with Craig on Wetpixel !!!

Although I will take issue about having discussions for the supposed sake of arriving at group agreement.....I think hearing from various people's experiences and opinions even if 180 degrees opposed is what forums are for....

This is exactly what happens with discussions on photo gear, dive gear, diving techniques, and more. If threads always ended in a unanimous decision we'd all be shooting the same camera in the same housing with the same strobes and our photos would all look alike.......BORING.........

I'm not promoting argument for argument's sake, either.........Just well thought out posts people will read an maybe think about it. Even if they don't agree at first!

Keep it going

dhaas

"no touching" of the marine substrate.

 

Did someone really say this? If so, I hope this person doesn't go on treks or walk on the grass...

That is exactly the analogy I use when people bring this up. If I am out on a picnic ON GRASS and see a little squirrel, I may try to interact with it or feed it. Or, I may pick up a snail. Obviously, it's different when you're in a national park, where the point is to leave things alone, but if you go off diving and want to interact with marine life without causing damage, that's your business. It's really up to common sense. I mean, instead of a camera, I could be carrying a speargun...

Hi Eric,

I think my full analogy goes even one step further... If you walk on the grass you are actually killing lots of animals by doing so! I wonder what the eco warriors think about this?

hehe... Cor, no just hook into his tank band...

Come on boys.... I'll hang a buddy line so you can all hang on

LOL

I have never used a pointer and only have seen it a couple of times in the Canary islands.

Where I live, pointers are not well thought of for a recreational diver. For an UWP are considered a nature offense and a cheating instrument ("...if you need a pointer to get a picture of a critter then you are not good enough..."). It is strange travelling around and seeing so many people with them in all kinds of fashion.

As for hooks I used one in Palau and found it very useful and non-aggressive (I see more disturbing the now I grab-now I do a fast burst against the current-now I regrab somewhere else...). We where briefed several times on its use.

I have never used a pointer and only have seen it a couple of times in the Canary islands.

Where I live, pointers are not well thought of for a recreational diver. For an UWP are considered a nature offense and a cheating instrument ("...if you need a pointer to get a picture of a critter then you are not good enough..."). It is strange travelling around and seeing so many people with them in all kinds of fashion.

I kind of agree with that. I've been watching divers slowly get more and more lazy and reliant on their sticks to save them using good bouyancy control.

It's patience and dedication that gets people great images, not a stick or even a better camera!

Mark my words... you'll start seeing these sticks everywhere soon...

Larry really should wear a wetsuit...

Larry really should wear a wetsuit...

yeah, on second thought I should have photoshopped a rashguard in... for the sake of viewers...

but then I could just hear the cries of foul play and PS manipulation in the thread...

It may be time to start an underwater fashion thread; I've never seen a guy look flattering in dive gear, mostly beer bellys and the French or Germans in Speedos.

I've only seen two women look really hot and they were both Brazillian! Here's one of them (on the left).

And then a beer belly for good measure.

Mr Haas, your example still requires touching of something to hold position. What's the difference with a finger hold for 5 seconds and a hook for 30 minutes or more in one spot where it's just rock? And it also depends on the strength of the current. I've dived Blue Corner when the current isn't kicking and motored around on my own power. There were fewer pelagics to shoot too.

I'm a bit of a nazi on divers breaking coral and critter harassment but I can't see the harm of a hook in some circumstances.

... also did it without a "current hook" swimming for short bursts out into the blue, then returning and holding one finger on a dead area with fins up completing the dive without killing things. So it can be done, but for most recreational divers it is easier to properly deploy a hook and rest.

If I am out on a picnic ON GRASS and see a little squirrel, I may try to interact with it or feed it. Or, I may pick up a snail...

Eric, I'll agree with you about snails since I know many gardener types who kill off snails and other bugs for their flowerbeds and worse, pesticides controls! Still feeding a mammal is never a good idea, national park or not, especially squirrels since some kid will try to do a hand feed of peanuts and invariably get bitten, resulting in the squirrel being hurt or killed in revenge. Not many people know that squirrels have poor front vision. Having a squirrel(or any other mammal) used to human contact is just not a good idea for a plethora of reasons. Of course in Lafayette Park, squirrels interact daily with humans, sometimes with a Bush too and they proliferate, the squirrels I mean

For an UWP are considered a nature offense and a cheating instrument ("...if you need a pointer to get a picture of a critter then you are not good enough..."). It is strange travelling around and seeing so many people with them in all kinds of fashion.

I don't dive with a pointer but know many people who do. Obviously many people do and a lot of them use it badly. But if guides use them because "they know how to use them", many people will say they too know how to use them, hence the spread of all these tools.

A great example is the crinoid squat lobster shot. Many a guide and diver will use the rod to spread the crinoids to get access to clingfish, lobsters and shrimp. But on a recent trip, our own Herb found 2 lobster outside the crinoid and was happily snapping away. The pressures of being productive on a rare annual trip push people to be more desperate and hence the interaction escalates.

Short of killing or maiming the animal, which I hope everyone will agree isn't a good thing, interaction is a subjective grey area and the pointer/rod is one tool of interaction.

so, if we are talking about gardening..

how many people who won't touch a nudibranch will pour salt on a garden slug assaulting their flowers?

I just crushed a Florida roach as big as a lobster

Jeff, post more pics of brasilieras and you'll be popular. But I will fault you for posting more shots of beer bellies. Since I know a certain Carioca reads this forum, I won't praise them too much. But more pics are welcome. I'll have you know that our own Matt Segal will probably never have a pot belly.

Mike, salt on a slug is so preschool. Speaking of lost preschoolers, been back to PG lately?

A counter to the whole gardening thing is encroachment into personal space. We unfortunately are darn good at defending our turf against all forms of insects/mammals/birds. In the sea, we are visitors and don't feel the encroachment as much, unless you are a fishermen in Canadian arctic waters and cull seals/cetaceans etc to reduce competition. Actually if you think about it, it's reversed! The nudies should really use their toxins on us to pay us back for killing their land cousins and encroaching on their territory.

But I will fault you for posting more shots of beer bellies. Since I know a certain Carioca reads this forum, I won't praise them too much. But more pics are welcome.

What about Speedos?