Get Paid for What You Do/ Don't undercut for credit

Ok, time to get in trouble. As a long time business owner I understand wanting to get paid for what you do. Now here comes the BUT... I am a 30yr veteran of "exporting jobs to China" not something that endeared us to our competition here in the USA. Reality is buyers will always look for the best combination of price and quality and bluntly study after study shows Price is the major factor. As a new company trying to break into a market, pay the bills you do what you have to get in the door. Deal with it. While I agree with the video clip, everyone starts out as an amateur and I wonder how the subject of the video got his start?

As a rank amateur with a lot of money invested in gear and trips of course I want to see my stuff somewhere beyond my website. In all reality (IMHO) more and more amateurs are going to get into this "market" and prices are going to keep going down. Keeping pricing secret, to your professional self, just makes it harder for those of us who get the occasional inquiry to know what to do. IMHO this industry is not going the way of buggy whip factories but the playing field is going to radically change, contract for full time pros.

Short term the best thing anyone could do is circulate a basic primer of pricing and get it posted as many places possible to stem the tide.

Bring on the flames.

I think someone awhile back (it could have been Steve) did post a list of prices that they have used per second and Nick Hope publishes his prices on his web page which is right up front and out there for anyone to see, so I don't think it is hidden in any way.

The problem with the 'Film Industry' in general is that there are a host of people always prepared to work literally for free and there are a lot of employers that actually advertise for placements where no salary or form of payment will be made on the justification that 'you will gain experience' or that it would be 'good for your CV'. It wouldn't happen in any other industry but the allure of 'stardom' often causes many to loose a few million brain cells and fall for it. Look into it and I think you'd be surprised just how often it goes on and just how many people are prepared to work for no pay in the hope that it will pay off for them in the long run. Would anyone in their right mind in a normal business undertake a contract, incur substantial costs and expect no remuneration or more importantly any prospect of it?

When you add the number of people who will work for free to the number of people out there who will gladly sell their grandmother just to get their face/footage/name on TV then you have a whole new can of worms to open. The last two years have certainly opened my eyes to all kinds of shenanigans, backstabbing and blatant rip offs. Just this last Sunday I was watching a documentary and up popped a couple of mins of my footage. It had been used without permission, credit or payment and this is not the first time this has happened. Just because I love filming underwater does that mean that I should freely give out my services at no charge just so that someone else can earn money off my back? Hell no.

This really can be a very, very, very nasty and dirty business at times.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as a flame as I'm just attempting to give some insight into the thoughts of a part timer who films for the love of it and not the money, but refuses to get downtrodden despite what feels like being constantly crapped on.

Cheers, Simon

P.S. Drew I'll PM you with the details - don't want to take over a good thread with my adverts

Simon, no worries. People working for free has been around for a looooong time and is wide spread. In the business world they are called interns. Same applies to this industry pros just call them amateurs. IMHO as time passes the line between hobbiest, semi-pro and pro is just going to continue to blur.

Let's face it.. technology has advanced so much that it enables hobbists to be able to compete in the big league for not a massive expense.

It wasn't that long ago that editing was a great deal harder... we have gone in 15 years from editing on a super expensive AVID system, now we have the complete other extreme where someone can create a reasonable production on imovie.

Cameras both still and video have become of a fantastic standard; on a different level look at RED... it allows smaller production companies to challenge the big league of Hollywood!... I wonder if they are having a similar discussion regarding smaller 'video dudes' who work for peanuts competing in the the world of film..

Just this last Sunday I was watching a documentary and up popped a couple of mins of my footage. It had been used without permission, credit or payment and this is not the first time this has happened. Just because I love filming underwater does that mean that I should freely give out my services at no charge just so that someone else can earn money off my back? Hell no.

Hey Simon - I'm curious how someone got a hold of broadcast quality footage of yours without you knowing? A couple minutes no less?!?! It's one thing to snag it off the web. Seems hard to believe?

Bryce

NWDiver - I think you have to draw the line between an intern which is supposed to be a training position(?) and people working for free in what should otherwise be a salaried position. I don't think the original example in this post was that of an intern - it was someone looking for a break and prepared to work for free in what would have otherwise been a salaried position because they believed it would help them out. The production company was clearly prepared to employ someone for payment in that position, but got what they thought was a better offer financially. Provided the standard of camera work was acceptable then the production company got a pretty good deal out of it. Could you work for free? I suppose if you had enough money you could, but many people don't have that luxury. In my own business I couldn't work for free and neither could anyone else doing it because there would be too many costs involved. The film industry and media industry in general seems to be pretty unique in this regard.

Jon - couldn't agree more - it's why I've been able to work from time to time doing something I love to do. 10 years ago I wouldn't have been able to that's for sure. I think the influx of hobbyists turned semi pro/part timers has been a good thing though. You look at some of the videos posted here and on other websites for example and they knock the socks off of what you often see on broadcast TV. Being an Amateur doesn't necessarily mean a lowering of standards. Someone once told me to remember that amateurs built the Ark, while professionals built the Titanic!

Bryce - It appears it was lifted off of an evaluation DVD - it wasn't particularly good footage, but it was mine and they didn't have the rights to use it. I've also had it happen with HD web content (which I've now stopped posting). Not every production company out there requires HD CAM as a requirement for footage I guess!

Cheers, Simon

I know how you feel Simon. I'm filled with feelings of anger and injustice when I find out I've been ripped off. Then the time and thought involved in seeking compensation can almost take over your life. So are you sueing them?

Here's another online reference, now we're talking about rates for stock footage.

As a "Newbie" on this site, maybe I shouldn't cut in on this discussion, but I've found it to be extremely informative and somewhat (?) of a relief that you professionals are experiencing some of the same problems I have had as a "proamateur". While I play on a much smaller field, I have found that pricing my work has been much more difficult than any of the shooting or editing of my videos! At this point, this is not my primary source of income, but I would like to make it that within the next 12 months -- not only underwater video, but other video work as well.

In this endeavor, as in others I have made in times past, I have found it necessary to stick to my guns in certain situations, rather than devalue my effort and my time. I recently produced a short demo video of some machinery for my husband's company. He wanted me to "give" it to them, but I held the footage hostage until we had come to an agreement on price. After viewing the production, they were more than willing to pay the price I requested. However, this was a 5-minute video --- I can't produce a more elaborate offering on the hope that "once they see it, they will pay". The one thing I have going in my favor, is that with most of my projects, it's either my product or nothing (quite different from the commercial broadcast type work you have been discussing.) Still, I would be much more comfortable if I had some guidelines as to what a "fair" price is. Any comments for us "local" producers?

Cathie

I know how you feel Simon. I'm filled with feelings of anger and injustice when I find out I've been ripped off. Then the time and thought involved in seeking compensation can almost take over your life. So are you sueing them?

Yeah Nick, it makes you feel like crap doesn't it? I wouldn't rule out legal action, but I hope that it's resolved way before it gets to that stage. The film has apparently been shown in at least five countries but the company responsible is based in the UK where we have a reasonably transparent legal system. For me it would be a whole different ball game in some other parts of the world....

One of the best bits of advice I received regarding pricing, is to charge whatever you feel comfortable asking. It sounds blatantly obvious but these words stuck in my mind. If you wince when you quote a figure, you've probably gone too high.

There was also this old thread about rates of pay. It was a sticky for a long time. If I remember rightly that thread also veered into footage rates as opposed to shooting rates.

Just read a couple of those older posts in that thread. Funny to see people "getting ready for HDV." Really solidifies how fast things move...

I have recently had a shot on the front cover fo a Uk dive mag and the rate I was paid was probably too low. For myself to get a shot onto the front cover of a magazine that I have read for 8 years was somewhat amazing. This was the fourth image that I have had published, but first on the cover. I have only been shooting underwater for a few years and only have an entry level set up. Of course I would love to be able to give up my day job, buy a 5D MKII all the lenses, ports and strobes and travel the world taking shots of life beneath the ocean. Then selling them at high rates to editors that are queueing up to buy them. That to me is just not practicle and is why I allowed the magazine to have my shot for a low price. This was probably my 5 seconds of fame and if people hold that against me, then so beit. My cover shot obviously had something special for the magazine to ask me for it, they offered a price and I accepted. Had I said no, I would like £x's for it, I might have not heard from them again and my 5 seconds of fame gone.

If this is selling out, then I am sorry.

Stew

If this is selling out, then I am sorry.

 

Stew

You sell out !!!!!!!!!!!!!...

Stew don't panic bro its a fact of life... If your looking to start up as an 'pro' then take this as a positive experience then move on and cuddle the kudos and earn your pennies from now on... if you can !!??... There are people on here who will moan about undercutting and the ethics etc but its a fact of life in Media that people will eat their 'first born' for a taste of the 'limelight'... nothing new... Jeez lets all get together and form a coalition and stick to rates and fee's etc... Oh shite its already been tried...!!!... its the money men/women in the industry that call the shots and will (as long as their getting paid) try to get something for nothing... Sorry but we all do it in all our fields of work..Its called 'BUSINESS'... and if anyone disagree's their a freaking liar... Production staff in industry are looking at us all arguing and rubbing their hands...

The 'pros' will warn us of undercutting them and beleive me so they should as we will be in their shoes one day but there is always going to be someone out there willing to sell there ass to get a credit on the next 'Planet Earth' series as it means a bit of kudo's in industry... Or does it ?????????... I worked by 'muscular' ass off to help on a sequence for the original planet earth series and was real proud/ happy to do so... but the disappointment on my families faces to not see my name 'in the credits' was comical...

As of my previous (empty vessel) posts i was asked two day ago "was it true you can earn £1000 a day filming wildlife??? .. my answer... Don't be bloody stupid !!!...

Dive safe

DeanB

I think the thing that irks some people is that someone will come onto wetpixel or elsewhere and ask for advice on how to make their shots better. Often a 'pro' will answer and give good advice. 6 months down the line the 'student' is then undercutting the market of the person who gave them advice, thus resulting in a loss of income for the kind 'pro' who helped them out.

If you like seeing the photos/videos of the pros on here, and enjoy their advice/ideas then don't undercut the market values. I have frequently been asked to give things at a lower rate than normal, but have always said 'no' and have even got more money out of the publisher if i thought they crossed the line.

I guess it's a moral thing if you chose not to undercut - but i know for sure if i asked a plumber to teach me how to install a boiler, and then once i knew how to do it targeted his clients at a lower price (maybe because his clients were hot babes and i wanted to get some extra 'kudos') he'd be rightly pissed off, and i'd be ashamed once i'd taken time to think about it.

It's always going to happen, but maybe the chaps and chapesses on here could try not to undercut the people they enjoy learning from/have learned from in the past?

Just my 2 penneth on the matter

thought i'd copy this in from the Wanted: manta ray pictures topic....

Good afternoon all,

 

Bill and others... I guess as your industries change and your boss decides that your job can be done well by a bunch of very talented people offering to do it for free, just for the glory, you'll be happy to move aside for them? You could always get a job doing something else, right?

 

Of course mine is just an illustration of the point (and it might be a a couple of years 'til we have simple-to-use hand-held devices to let us perform our own brain surgery, pull teeth or safely split the atom) but you must be able to see where the pros are coming from, as their income is eaten away by easy-to-use cameras, Photoshop, a wealth of information (a lot provided by pros, from experience) and easy image delivery. We all make judgments about the value of our work, whatever work that may be... most wouldn't go to their job without getting paid. Pros are mad just 'cause their livelihoods are under threat. Wouldn't you be?

 

It's always been a difficult business, but stock will continue to be so, and it will just get harder and harder. As Bill alludes to, the one thing that pros might be able to rely on in the future is fee-for-service, as most clients wanting something specific need a guaranteed result, to an exacting brief, on a deadline, no excuses... something a pro is good at.

 

Photography is not the first industry to be swamped by technology, and it won't be the last.

 

It's just the transition is hard on the pros, and fun for everyone else.

 

...now... where's that book on brain surgery?

 

darren

You sell out !!!!!!!!!!!!!...

 

 

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

on reflection i dont know if i did sell out as i dont know what the going rate for a cover shot actually is. but then thinking about it, i most definately did sell out as the magazine hasnt bloody paid me yet. !!!

Stew

I recently received a friendly reaming out from Rick Allen of Nautilus Productions. He just finished producing a fantastic documentary on the Queen Anne's Revenge and is a major player in this industry. He had seen some of my stuff on line and did a beautiful job ripping it just to show me how stupid I was for not watermarking. Don't want your stuff stolen, watermark it!!

Steve

I give stuff away as well no problems but I just get annoyed when a commercial company or station offers you peanuts. Like O yeh mate I will give you a couple hundred bucks for a few minutes of footage or give ya $150 for a days filming...

 

Yes it will get worse as it's so easy now for anyone to shoot underwater, then again it's so easy for anyone to do anything now days. Gone are the days where a certificate on the wall means that you are good at something.

Okay, lets continue this...I'm sure it varies from country to country and all, but what has been everyone's going rates for a days shoot? By the hour or day? Do you charge differently if you are shooting topside?

Steve

I charge AUD $80 p/h and I charge the same for topside as underwater. If I do a shoot for a solid week of work I charge $3500 AUD, this does not include expenses they are on top naturally.

However depending on the project I may charge a total price and this also depends on whether I own the copyright to the footage and whether the footage is something that I want.

I charge $70 p/h for editing services.