Paying gig in York PA

Hi Folks,

I'm not really sure where to post this so here goes.

An editor I work with needs a photographer to shoot a series of swimming photos in a pool for a water fitness book. The shoot is in York PA Nov 6th or 7th.

Anyone near there interested? It pays pretty well.

If interested send me a PM or an email.

Cheers

James

Here is some info from the editor, Heather Healy:

 

Basic Details: swimming shoot, about 80 photos.

 

Potential dates for the photo shoot.

 

Sat 10/30 (late afternoon & evening)-Sun 10/31

Sat 11/6 (afternoon & evening)-Sun 11/7

Sat 11/27 (afternoon & evening)-Sun 11/28

 

They apparently have practice on Saturday mornings until noon so that why the Saturdays are afternoon and evening. On 10/30, something else must be happening at the pool that afternoon since it's late afternoon. Obviously, the last weekend listed is Thanksgiving holiday weekend. They have practice on Saturday so maybe getting models that weekend won't be a problem.

Please note that an insurance certificate is required and the publisher has a pretty serious contract - they own all the photos you shoot.

Cheers

James

Please note that an insurance certificate is required and the publisher has a pretty serious contract - they own all the photos you shoot.

Well if they want all rights then the fee should more than cover the cost of airline ticket from here in the UK......and by air travel, I mean turning left at the aircraft door, not right.....

And the fee should still allow a hefty profit, after travel expenses.

Well if they want all rights then the fee should more than cover the cost of airline ticket from here in the UK......and by air travel, I mean turning left at the aircraft door, not right.....

 

And the fee should still allow a hefty profit, after travel expenses.

If that's the case I'm in !!!!!

Dive safe

DeanB

If that's the case I'm in !!!!!

 

Dive safe

 

DeanB

Well no one has actually mentioned a fee......but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to form an orderly queue.

After all, we are british.

Travel fees? Good luck. Last time, I couldn't negotiate that even from California.

I'm sure people that can drive to the shoot location can do this one and make a good fee. Not sure if you can drive from the UK unless you're driving a duck or something lol

Cheers

James

Thanks to everyone who has replied by PM so far. I'm putting together a list to send to the editor.

As far as image rights - I have done 3 of these shoots and have no problem giving them full rights to the photos. I mean come on - how many other opportunities are you going to have to sell a photo of a swimmer in a YMCA pool doing a freestyle stroke lol. But it's totally up to you whether you want to do it or not - it's the beauty of the free market in all it's glory and folly.

Cheers

James

As far as image rights - I have done 3 of these shoots and have no problem giving them full rights to the photos. I mean come on - how many other opportunities are you going to have to sell a photo of a swimmer in a YMCA pool doing a freestyle stroke lol. But it's totally up to you whether you want to do it or not - it's the beauty of the free market in all it's glory and folly.

Free market indeed.

Swimmer shots with model release? Plenty of commercial use there....the list is only limited by the imagination & marketing ability.

With all rights the magazine can relicense the image themselves. Done well, they will more than reap their investment for the 70 or so years after the photographer's death. And who knows? If the swimmer turns into the next Michael Phelps.......those images would be very valuable indeed......

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with an all rights contract, just bear it in mind when negotiating the fee. Copyright lasts a very long time indeed.

Well that's an interesting perspective Simon - but not applicable in this instance. I'm telling you that I KNOW these photos are not the photos you have in your mind's eye lol. These are "models" that breathe, can swim, and can show up that day...;-)

Cheers

James

Well that's an interesting perspective Simon - but not applicable in this instance. I'm telling you that I KNOW these photos are not the photos you have in your mind's eye lol. These are "models" that breathe, can swim, and can show up that day...;-)

Maybe, but there is still unintended consequences - who knows what these breathing, swimming models would do with their lives? Political ambitions? Criminal actions? Future sainthood? Academic achievement? If they are unrecognizable then the scenario wouldn't work but copyright is a long-term returns game and who knows what might happen?

This scenario happened to me, with the most unlikely image and a very unlikely subject. It wasn't subject to a all rights contract, but there is a parallel. Its why I don't ever throw an image away (utter disasters excepted) and consider carefully the implications of an all rights contract. I nearly binned the image. It was neither arty or well composed - just a record of the day - but suddenly someone really needed a copy and attached financial value to it. Was I surprised? You bet........had I signed the rights over, someone else would have made the sale.

That's true Simon in your particular case.

But in this case you would never have had the photo in the first place since you would have refused the job on the grounds that you didn't like the contract :-) And you wouldn't have had the income from this job either. So you would pass up some assured income in favor of a possible income in the future.

Cheers

James

Companies will offer the least they can for the most they can get... FACT!!!

People will jump at the chance to work for whatever reason, its better than nothing, Kudo's, hope for more work.... FACT

Not everyone has the same moral's as everyone else... FACT

Dive safe

Dean(works for dog biscuits)B

But in this case you would never have had the photo in the first place since you would have refused the job on the grounds that you didn't like the contract :-) And you wouldn't have had the income from this job either....

Well.....its all a bit academic but I wouldn't refuse the contract on principle, it all depends on the exact terms and (more importantly) the fee. If the fee is very, very good, or if the images really are one-off and unable to exploit at any time in the future, then the contract would be signed. Each would be judged on the their individual merits, good and bad, balancing short term gain vs long term reward.

I guess if I wanted assured income, I would go back to being an employee somewhere.....but I tried that and sacked my last employer.

Well.....its all a bit academic but I wouldn't refuse the contract on principle, it all depends on the exact terms and (more importantly) the fee. If the fee is very, very good, or if the images really are one-off and unable to exploit at any time in the future, then the contract would be signed. Each would be judged on the their individual merits, good and bad, balancing short term gain vs long term reward.

That's right and your call to caution should be well heeded. However, these companies know there are people out there who'd take their terms. James is just trying to give those who want such a gig notice and a helping hand. James didn't mention what the fee is. so let's not assume they are low-balling either.

Someone offers you $XX an hour. You say yes, or no (or maybe, you complain so much that you aren't even offered the job). End of story!

Someone offers you $XX an hour. You say yes, or no (or maybe, you complain so much that you aren't even offered the job). End of story!

Selling IP creativity by the hour can work as a business model for some, but that's generally what is expected from employees. In exchange for surrendering the IP of their ideas and endeavors to their employer, employees a regular paycheck, paid holidays, get the tools for the job provided for them and possibly enjoy healthcare or other benefits. Freelancers/individuals do not get these benefits but still have to provide their own equipment and insurance etc etc etc.

There is a costing model called BUR - Base Use Rights. You work out your annual overheads, add the profit you want to see and then divide the figure by the number of anticipated working days in a given year. This figure (say $1000 per day) is your BUR for a one day shoot with the following rights; Single territory, 2 media, 2 year duration. The BUR goes up if the client needs more media, longer time etc etc etc.

Its all based on costing images around the benefit to the client and saves them paying for use they won't ever need. More use = higher BUR.

(Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs........)

I would rather negotiate a right to use for their specific purposes, including an exclusivity clause for a given term if required. There may well be occasions when all rights is appropriate, and this may well be one of them, but in my experience the client wants rather than needs all rights and can be prepared to negotiate if asked.

I'm not saying the idea of surrendering all rights wrong, just that the BUR model gives flexibility to both client and photographer.

Simon, have you actually SHOT a job for a mom-and-pop shop before. None of that fancy stuff flies. Try shooting some photos for a model for 2 hours for her Myspace page and try talking about some of this with her, then come back and lecture me about this, lol!

Cheers

James

Simon, have you actually SHOT a job for a mom-and-pop shop before. None of that fancy stuff flies. Try shooting some photos for a model for 2 hours for her Myspace page and try talking about some of this with her, then come back and lecture me about this, lol!

Lecture? No, not at all..... isn't the point of a forum to exchange of ideas and concepts? Base Usage Rights is a clear and easy way for photographer and client to agree what each gets, up front and with no post-shoot surprises. It also compels the photographer to understand their overheads, something critical for successful business and something I suspect few photographers actually sit down and figure out.

Back to the original post. The client is asking for "all rights" and requires insurance. These exact requirements do not necessarily fit the profile of a mom & pop shop or a model wanting 2 hours shoot for a Myspace page........ so is the comparison fair when the requirements for the shoot are more akin to a business that knows exactly what they want?

Yes I think so - I'm the one familiar w/ the company after all. They are small and have a staff photographer that does all of their shoots - I'm sure on a salary.

I think anyone hiring a photographer to shoot in water will require insurance.

So now that I've established what I consider a mom and pop (individual or company) maybe you can answer the question - what do you propose for a shoot for a small mom and pop?

Cheers

James