Paying gig in York PA

Just an example in our medical world. Radiologists can now send digitised x-rays to India where the radiologists charge a fraction of what radiologists charge in the US or even the UK.

Another example: I just had a professional logo done by someone in Indonesia through 99designs.com at a fraction of the 'professional' price here

We all have to live with changes like these not just photographers. Photographers need to stop whining, no one really cares. I am just arranging a trip for some 'professional' photographers, and to say that they are 'nickel and diming' me is an understatement. Everyone will try to get the best deal they can, and I think it's naive to say that just because someone undercuts a price it's unprofessional. Poor performance or products is unprofessional, not a low price.

Underwater Photography is a hobbyist driven world. You are being a professional in an environment thats inundated by countless people that do this for fun. You could hardly have chosen a more challenging profession to be successful in. You can't compete with fun.

 

You keep trying to suggest I would undercut you. Im one of the few that wouldn't, so in a way you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

I agree with Simon that separating editoral work from commissioned work is important. I didnt read it what way, because being paid is being paid. I did not see the distinction. But now that has been clarified, I understand what Simon means. Ive never done commissioned work, because thats a job, and I dont want this to be a job. I can see the frustration of someone undercutting you in a commissioned job though. But again, you are trying to compete in a world where people do this for fun. Not naive? Im not convinced.

 

I suppose you could ask, why write articles instead of refusing it and leaving it to the pros. I dont think this is in the editor's best interest. They want as much content to choose from, and the broader their base, the more chance they have to find stories that are different. It's great that Simon is doing stories that hobbyists rarely are able to do. He's at least found a great way to keep busy. Kudos But those kind of stories rarely sell advertising. Editors want the stories about diving destinations, because they sell advertising. Without advertising, no magazines. And they can't afford to commission every article.

I'm not suggesting you would undercut me, you are... You are kind of agreeing with me In many ways so fair play maybe a loss in translation ... Apart from the 'naivety' part in which I repeat, It's obvious people will do something for just their name in print it has been going on since the dawn of self-promotion I KNOW THAT ALREADY!!! I just personally think its WRONG and, I expect, so do the people doing it although as long as there is fresh air they still will and that's especially if they do not need the money and are 'fame' hungry. If I won the lottery tomorrow I would make my own work and publicity not steal it from others but that's just me all Idea's no gear ...

Dive safe

Dean(Saint)B

People self-promote for two reasons, ego and money or a combination of the two. One thing's for certain, ego is not in short supply amongst professional (or amateur photographers for that matter). But I have another question for the professionals out there; do you all not charge what the market will bear for your services? Are you not undercutting those more expensive professional photographers that charge more?

People self-promote for two reasons, ego and money or a combination of the two. One thing's for certain, ego is not in short supply amongst professional (or amateur photographers for that matter). But I have another question for the professionals out there; do you all not charge what the market will bear for your services? Are you not undercutting those more expensive professional photographers that charge more?

When I started out I was told by a very 'well known' shooter to charge X amount for mainstream programmes and X amount for smaller productions then another told me in no uncertain terms to charge the same for both. Obviously I would be charging the same as he who was A) 'known' and B) had years more experience so obviously he didn't want me to undercut him, C)guess who would get the work ... As It happens most jobs I go on have two shooters, primary and 2nd camera who both charge and get the same so everyone's happy. Most people seem happy with that and are very helpful to give you the information so you don't get a rep for undercutting... I have personally ONCE undercharged for footage (I will happily admit to that now) for credit although it was a few seconds not loads however I have never gone in lower to get actual work that is against my principles... Call me old fashioned

So what I'm saying is I agree that it will never change although the 'freebie' people maybe one day the ones being undercut... Karma

Dive safe

DeanB

Diego Garcia? Part of the British Indian Ocean Territory....... he he he.....well yes it would be an interesting place to visit. Aside from the moral issues of enforced deportation of the Chagos islanders, I would consider carefully if such a visit at my expense would see a profit. For me, its not about undercutting someone else but undercutting myself. That hurts more...... I would take a long, hard look at the bottom line on this and if the sums failed to add up I would turn the trip down.

It was the US who forced them off with the lease agreement. The UK just "Blaired" along. So I'm technically part of the group that did the deportation. If you want to add ethical reasons for not doing things, I'd have to take John Bantin's advice and kill myself. I'd have to skip anything made in China so they can't afford to buy sharks fin (no ipod, phone and even my computer), not buy anything from Germany that originates with a company that predates the 1930s (nazi ties so no Porsche, VW, MB and Audi), then I have to boycott my own country and also Australia (among others) for ill-treatment of indigenous people. Well Australia is not a problem really! But the list of companies/countries to boycott is really, really long.

Selective reasoning is a wonderful trait for humans to have, no?

Photographers need to stop whining, no one really cares.....and to say that they are 'nickel and diming' me is an understatement.

So making you buy dinner after illegally bringing me a lens, breaking importation laws, is ok, right? Does that make me a professional scrounger?

What Simon (decosnapper) says is absolutely right, holding the line on principle and professional courtesy is an admirable thing. However, I think it's very realistic to say that small jobs like these won't pay the industry standard fee (whatever that is), otherwise they would not be asking for a referral. The reality of the situation is that these sort of jobs are almost tailor made for the competent hobbyist, where perhaps 10-15 years ago, it would've probably been shot by a pro or semi-pro, or not at all due to budget constraints.

So making you buy dinner after illegally bringing me a lens, breaking importation laws, is ok, right? Does that make me a professional scrounger?

Don't think I broke any laws unless you sold the lens before you left.

No worries, happy to buy you dinner, as long as you don't whine.

I'm not suggesting you would undercut me, you are... You are kind of agreeing with me In many ways so fair play maybe a loss in translation ...

I guess you have to explain it to me then.This is what my dictionary says:

offer goods or services at a lower price than (a competitor)

I dont do commissioned work, so i cant be undercutting you there. I write for a magazine or two a few times a year. I dont set those prices. I get paid the same price you would get. But I guess with undercutting you mean undermining? If only we would just go on our trips, and then not go ahead and write about our lovely experiences.

....................Photographers need to stop whining, no one really cares........

BUR is not about whining - its about solving the problem of "how much?" when asked the question, but I get you point.

People self-promote for two reasons, ego and money or a combination of the two.......

Indeed they do. I want....no, wait.....kids need new shoes....correction........ need the money. This is where BUR comes into it again (apologies for excessive trimming) as it sets my rate I won't go below. BUR ensures I remain in profit and if another photographer has a higher BUR but can add more value then the client might pay more. Likewise, if another has a lower BUR......well you get the point. BUR gives a level playing field.

It was the US who forced them off with the lease agreement. The UK just "Blaired" along. So I'm technically part of the group that did the deportation.......

Like I said, leaving the moral aspects aside......We have enough debate without opening another can of worms

The world is indeed shifting to a different place. The irony of the internet is the world wants images, indeed one might argue that there is greater demand than at any time in the past, but the internet is free right?. A long time ago I decided to severely restrict the amount of work I put on the web, for one simple reason; why would anyone buy it if they could get it for free? It does give the magazines who pay for the right to use my work the opportunity to be the first to display it........I am also under no illusion that this one-man stand makes sod-all difference.

Either it's a free market, or it isn't. A professional will add value...

... but it must be up to you to convince the client of that. There is, after all, no such thing as a free lunch, even if many clients don't realise that until too late.

Excellent point Tim. The sell is everything and demonstrating value is key.

As an aside, there was a clamor for "citizen journalists" a while back. I didn't hear anyone seeking "citizen brain surgeons" to do their op.

Comment is always free. Insight & the supply of information costs.

This has turned into a great thread! Indeed - this type of "commissioned" job is perfect for a hobbyist or semi-pro shooter, as I'm sure they think they can't "afford" someone like Simon's BUR. Strike that, it's not that they don't "think" they can afford a pro - they literally can not.

Cheers

James

This has turned into a great thread! Indeed - this type of "commissioned" job is perfect for a hobbyist or semi-pro shooter, as I'm sure they think they can't "afford" someone like Simon's BUR. Strike that, it's not that they don't "think" they can afford a pro - they literally can not.

It has indeed become a good thread. Its always refreshing to hear other ideas - good and bad.

As for my BUR......well you might be surprised. Maybe not. Its all a bit academic really, but a great debate.

One thought; if everyone used a BUR model, I still think the shoot would go ahead. Why? Because everyone would have a different BUR, and (as Tim says) unless the value-add can be demonstrated & sold the job would go to the lowest bidder. Very hypothetical, I grant that.......