Color correction in FCP vs FCE

I am curious about the color correction advantages/features of FCP over FCE. I understand that there is a dedicated application (Colors) in FCP, which supposedly makes a world of difference. Could somebody point to a feature list applicable to UW videos and case examples of what can be solved that would not be feasible in FCE?

I have recently switched from "Color Corrector" to "RGB balance" in FCE and found it markedly easier to use and more powerful for color correction (but that's maybe just me) and at this point, I am not quite sure what I should desire more than what I achieve.

White bubbles no matter what (even if they are not such underwater to the eye of a diver)?

Tropical blue water in Southern California footage?

X.

Whether you are using FCP or FC Express, color correction should never be done on your computer monitor using the Canvas to adjust colors. The only correct way to CC is to use an external monitor. That said, the 3 way color corrector in FC should be able to accomplish 95% of all your color correction needs. Learn to use the Waveform and Vectorscopes in your NLE along with what you see on your monitor.

Apple's Color application is very deep and has a high learning curve. It is a great app but just not necessary for the majority of your CC needs.

Steve

I prefer FC Studio to FCE but it is more costly. Then again, you are getting a great deal more bang for your buck.

Hmm... External monitor? But the color correction will be only good for that device, won't it? I just played a video I thought I had perfectly balanced on my MBP but it looks redish on a DELL 22" monitor. Since you can play with the temperature of a monitor, I am not sure I understand what benefit there is in having an external monitor (besides blowing up the size of the display)?

I am curious about the color correction advantages/features of FCP over FCE. I understand that there is a dedicated application (Colors) in FCP, which supposedly makes a world of difference. Could somebody point to a feature list applicable to UW videos and case examples of what can be solved that would not be feasible in FCE?

I have recently switched from "Color Corrector" to "RGB balance" in FCE and found it markedly easier to use and more powerful for color correction (but that's maybe just me) and at this point, I am not quite sure what I should desire more than what I achieve.

White bubbles no matter what (even if they are not such underwater to the eye of a diver)?

Tropical blue water in Southern California footage?

X.

I used Color (part of FCP) in one project but found the learning curve very steep. For underwater video, where we are mainly adjusting major color-shifts (e.g. turning green water to blue), the fine controls of Color do not justify the effort required, in my opinion. Apple bought Color from another developer (as they did originally with FCP) but they have not yet aligned the GUI. So it operates quite differently from FCP, making it difficult to learn.

I can not remember what FCE gives you for color correction. It used to be a simple "2 way corrector" for blacks and highlights. In FCP, the "3 way color corrector" is quite useful and sufficient for most needs. It allows you to adjust contrast, separately adjust color for darks, mids and light areas, adjust saturation and has a "limiter" (twirl-down option) that can be used to hold back the effect in selected areas. The limiter is not as powerful as the masking feature in the Color app, but, with some fiddling you can control which areas are affected by the color adjustment. This is useful if, for example, you have a foreground with good color from your video lights and a background that is too green from the ambient light. You can use the limiter to limit the color adjustment to just the background areas by selecting something that characterises that background (brightness, color range).

This article is worth reading: http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/cheat...color_seth.html

as are all the Ken Stone articles for anyone interested in video editing in FCP.

Regards

Peter

This article is worth reading: http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/cheat...color_seth.html

as are all the Ken Stone articles for anyone interested in video editing in FCP.

Wow, really eye-opening! It is actually a tutorial for FCE. I definitely need to learn how to use the limiter...

Wow, really eye-opening! It is actually a tutorial for FCE. I definitely need to learn how to use the limiter...

Those Ken Stone articles are a wealth of information. Got me through many a sticky-patch with FCP.

The other useful source is the MacBreak Studio video podcasts. Just search on "MacBreak Studio" in iTunes. Lots of good tips and advice.

Regards

Peter

I am curious about the color correction advantages/features of FCP over FCE. I understand that there is a dedicated application (Colors) in FCP, which supposedly makes a world of difference. Could somebody point to a feature list applicable to UW videos and case examples of what can be solved that would not be feasible in FCE?

I have recently switched from "Color Corrector" to "RGB balance" in FCE and found it markedly easier to use and more powerful for color correction (but that's maybe just me) and at this point, I am not quite sure what I should desire more than what I achieve.

White bubbles no matter what (even if they are not such underwater to the eye of a diver)?

Tropical blue water in Southern California footage?

X.

Well what you desire only you know.

But Color is a very powerful grading tool, using nodes system UI. Some feel it is counterintuitive while others find it much easier to work with, it's very subjective. I've forgotten about FCE limitations but I will say that Color is my preferred color grading tool for underwater work. The workflow adds about 3 stages and roughly 10-30% more editing time due to the rendering and finishing back in FCP. Usually I get lazy and use presets for certain water conditions and that gets it to about 80% of where it should be. I use that for WP review videos etc. For professional work, I let the production colorist handle it because that person is paid to do it, then I can bitch and moan about how they ruined it!

Anyhoo here are a few links you may find useful:

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23629

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36385

Thanks for all the links.

I looked up "external monitor for FCP". We are not talking about hooking up a monitor to my MBP and extending the display to that second monitor to have more "space" for the Canvas (which is indeed small by default), right? Or would that work? I can hook up my MBP to my HDTV and use it as an extension of my Desktop, but of course, the TV is used as a computer display then, and I don't see what I would gain from that in terms of CC.

There seem to be hardware sets like the Matrox MXO. What is it doing? Is it "communicating" with FCE to get the interlaced rendered sequence and send an interlaced video signal to the TV? If so, how does it manage to do that... I am not sure I want to invest in this kind of hardware for the kind of amateur work I am doing right now anyhow...

Sorry for my naivety.

Thanks for all the links.

I looked up "external monitor for FCP". We are not talking about hooking up a monitor to my MBP and extending the display to that second monitor to have more "space" for the Canvas (which is indeed small by default), right? Or would that work? I can hook up my MBP to my HDTV and use it as an extension of my Desktop, but of course, the TV is used as a computer display then, and I don't see what I would gain from that in terms of CC.

There seem to be hardware sets like the Matrox MXO. What is it doing? Is it "communicating" with FCE to get the interlaced rendered sequence and send an interlaced video signal to the TV? If so, how does it manage to do that... I am not sure I want to invest in this kind of hardware for the kind of amateur work I am doing right now anyhow...

Sorry for my naivety.

Definitely having a large monitor is useful for FCP. I run FCP across 2 x 23 inch Apple monitors. When I am doing FCP, the right hand monitor is for the canvas. Everything else is on the left-hand monitor.

The other recommendation that you will hear often is to hook up a TV to the Mac to display the output on a device similar to the target audience. This used to be very important when 99% of all video was watched, via DVD or broadcast, on a cathode-ray tube TV. If you just edited on a computer display, the output on the TV could be very different. So, all editors had a small tube TV connected to their computer to get an idea of the end output color.

However, today, our video gets watched on computers (e.g. youtube), iPods/iPads, TVs (DVD and Blu-ray), projectors, etc. Reviewing the video on all target display types would be more hassle than it is worth - given that all devices have much better color management these days.

Also, most TVs are now flat panel with similar color characteristics as the computer display. If you are making video for commercial broadcast, definitely use an external TV monitor (or a professional colorist). If you are making video for internet sharing and a few DVDs for friends, the color output on a computer monitor will be close enough.

But, definitely get yourself a big display for your MBP or you wont be seeing the Canvas large enough to be able to see color and sharpness properly.

Regards

Peter

Just hooked up my HDTV to my MBP and will now practice the FCE CC lesson from Seth Kenlon you pointed to me :-)

Thanks for the clarification!

X.

Hmm... External monitor? But the color correction will be only good for that device, won't it? I just played a video I thought I had perfectly balanced on my MBP but it looks redish on a DELL 22" monitor. Since you can play with the temperature of a monitor, I am not sure I understand what benefit there is in having an external monitor (besides blowing up the size of the display)?

Great question and you're right. So let me take this a step further for you. All external monitors need a burn in time of between 150-200 hours. Then they should be calibrated by a person certified to do so. You can do your own basic calibration but a certified calibrator will actually go into the monitor and make adjustments from

within. I wouldn't dare do this myself as I pat myself on the back for being able to put the chain on the toilet bowl float. Since I use a Matrox MXO2 box as an in/ out hardware to my external monitor, they have some of their own and very good calibration tools. Once calibrated, your monitor will be fine for color correction. If it doesn't look perfect or as your vision of it depicts on someone else's set, then the problem is their monitor and nothing that you have done wrong. Most TV monitors in stores have factory settings with the contrast and color saturation boosted up way too high. It is that stunning inititial sight that psychologically makes you want to buy the set and the salesman then more commission. The same holds true for stereo speakers. I used to sell hi end esoteric audio systems and was not on commissions so I could be very honest with the customer. Different speakers have different efficiencies which only means that they need a certain amount of amplification to reach a certain DB level. The efficiency of the speaker does not mean it is a better or worse speaker than the other. In fact, the very best speakers tend to be inefficient in that they need more power to drive them than the efficient one does. So, when comparing speakers, unless the efficiencies are equalized via a sound board or within the audio switcher, the comparison is just misleading. The cheaper speaker will sound louder to you and psycho-acoustically, you will always gravitate and probably buy the cheaper but louder speaker. It is an old trick of stereo salesman who make more commission on one speaker than another, to turn up the volume ever so slightly on the one they really want to sell because of more commission money. Fortunately, I never had to do that.

Hope this clarifies a few things.

Steve

Those Ken Stone articles are a wealth of information. Got me through many a sticky-patch with FCP.

 

The other useful source is the MacBreak Studio video podcasts. Just search on "MacBreak Studio" in iTunes. Lots of good tips and advice.

 

Regards

Peter

Glad you like our articles on the kenstone.net site. It is always welcome when we get emails saying that our site and discussion forum has been useful. Actually, it's not my site, I just write for them and the lafcpug.org site as well.

Steve

Thanks for all the links.

I looked up "external monitor for FCP". We are not talking about hooking up a monitor to my MBP and extending the display to that second monitor to have more "space" for the Canvas (which is indeed small by default), right? Or would that work? I can hook up my MBP to my HDTV and use it as an extension of my Desktop, but of course, the TV is used as a computer display then, and I don't see what I would gain from that in terms of CC.

There seem to be hardware sets like the Matrox MXO. What is it doing? Is it "communicating" with FCE to get the interlaced rendered sequence and send an interlaced video signal to the TV? If so, how does it manage to do that... I am not sure I want to invest in this kind of hardware for the kind of amateur work I am doing right now anyhow...

Sorry for my naivety.

Production monitors act as "reference" monitors. In the case of HDTV, the standard is Rec.709 (BT.709) Once you color correct with this standard, your product should look about the same on every HDTV (with manufacturer differences of course ). That's why production monitors cost so much because they are factory tuned to industry standards like Rec.709 and SMPTE etc.

A hobbyist doesn't need a production monitor to get close to Rec.709 standard. Often times, using a color calibration tool like a Eye 2 or Spyder and calibrating to Rec.709 will get you closer to the standard (but definitely not spot on). Use Rec.709 and you should be ok with the HD world. Use Rec.601 for SD.

Hope this clarifies a few things.

Steve

Totally. But I didn't quite get which speakers you recommend for underwater videos !

Often times, using a color calibration tool like a Eye 2 or Spyder and calibrating to Rec.709 will get you closer to the standard (but definitely not spot on).

How often do you need to calibrate a monitor? Is a DVD like Digital Video Essential a good starting point or do I need to buy a piece of hardware like the one you mention (Spyder is affordable, Eye 2 is probably more than I would consider investing for my purpose).

But, definitely get yourself a big display for your MBP or you wont be seeing the Canvas large enough to be able to see color and sharpness properly.

I think I understand what you mean, now that I have practiced a little bit with the Chroma Keyer... There is indeed no way to figure out whether the selected region onto which the color correction will apply extends close enough to objects borders without blowing up the picture (I had actually to zoom the picture on my 51' TV to get it right...).

BTW, the results were amazing (to me)! I love that tool (except that it will now take even longer before I get each video right :-)!

Thanks a bunch,

X.

How often do you need to calibrate a monitor? Is a DVD like Digital Video Essential a good starting point or do I need to buy a piece of hardware like the one you mention (Spyder is affordable, Eye 2 is probably more than I would consider investing for my purpose).

That depends on how fastidious you are. Pros go from daily to weekly minimum (only because they'd buy really stable monitors anyway, but as colorists they can't afford to have mistakes). Normal people do it monthly, lazy types do it when they remember and super lazy people buy production monitors that self calibrate

That depends on how fastidious you are. Pros go from daily to weekly minimum (only because they'd buy really stable monitors anyway, but as colorists they can't afford to have mistakes). Normal people do it monthly, lazy types do it when they remember and super lazy people buy production monitors that self calibrate

Also lets put it into perpective... if you are just going to upload it to you tube or stick it on a dvd for your mates... burn it / encode it have a look at it and make changes as you need. You'll get it pretty close by just using you MBP screen

I rarely ever do any green screen work but creating the right set for green screen is imperative to pull a good key. Lighting, of course, is the most important. You want to avoid any shadows at all on the green screen and keep your subject a good distance forward of the screen so that the subject doesn't create their own shadows. A good starting point is to have your subject about 7 feet away from the green screen itself. Your key light on the subject and your side fill lights adjusted to keep the green even. Your back light is probably best set high and aiming downward to create depth and to suppliment the fill of any possible shadows.

Once your scene is shot, you do not need to work on the entire image, unless you have other objects like a table or something in the clip. You can mask out the subject using a garbage mask and then apply the keying filter to that. The hardest part of pulling a key is to avoid that slightly green halo around your subject. Maybe others who do more of this type of work have better tips.

Steve

I rarely ever do any green screen work ...

The hardest part of pulling a key is to avoid that slightly green halo around your subject...

Steve

OK, I was actually referring to color correction on an UW video (which actually contained a greenish sand area around my light-illuminated subject, so it's kind of a green screen situation of sort). But indeed the help provided by a large screen output was to pinpoint the remaining halo of points on the edge of the greenish region, and thus let me expand the keyed area enough to get rid of it. On the default canvas size (when it is stuck in the upper right corner), I could not see that. Direct proof of the wisdom of Sir Peter and others in this thread.

X.