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LAUPS winners: Subject's manipulation?

Started by elbuzo ·

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LAUPS winners: Subject's manipulation?

116 posts
  1. Well I do think Mauricio's post is being taken out of context. I don't think he's saying there should be no post processing, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it was by LAUPS' own rules.

    Digital manipulation, as I see it, is limited to levels and saturation and the like, but not say masking the subject and blending a new background or even adding another subject for effect. Same for poking and prodding a subject to get the pose right, that to me, is harassment. As usual, this particular topic brings out very subjective opinions, from the no touchy touchy to the "hey it's still alive after I'm done with it" crowd.

    Staying on topic, the sea moth is benthic by nature. For the picture to be taken, the fish would have to be off the seafloor by a large amount. It's not the same as changing the levels and color saturation.

     

     

    Drew- Thank you for this comment.

    I summarizes my thoughts on this particular subject matter.

    I second your statement.

    Mauricio

  2. Probably for photojournalism, natural history etc as Mauricio mentions, the requirements are much stricter, going beyond intent, and documenting the truth and reality of the situation being documented. Defining truth and reality is really as simple as the stipulation that anyone placed in the same situation, scene etc, would have a similar visual experience without any manipulation of the subject or scene. So really any post processing that sticks within these guidelines, even much of Ansel Adam's works, would probably fill these criteria.

    Once the photographer starts manipulating the image to the degree that he is reflecting his inner vision, that would not be immediately apparent to someone standing next to him, it probably goes beyond what is acceptable for natural history and photojournalism. It's also pretty clear that some techniques such as focus stacking would be acceptable whether in camera or not, and others such as HDR might not.

    Image manipulation and subject manipulation are also different. Just like Doubilet's nudi series - no image manipulation but clearly subject manipulation. Nat Geo is not OK with the former, but obviously finds the latter to be OK.

     

     

    Well stated,

    This thread is about subject manipulation where a subject should not or unlikely would be in the way it is presented.

    Doubilets Studio photography of Nudibranchs does not actually take away from the Nudys themselves... in a way it

    allows us to see their beauty without distraction.

    Joel Sarore did the same with endangered species- placing them in a studio setting- black or white background to isolate

    the subject and allow the viewer to focus on what is important - to bring attention to... Neither of these top photographers though,

    could or would enter a wildlife competition that did not allow subject manipulation as per this thread.

    They are paid for their vision and how to convey this vision through in the most powerful way to the 60 million readers of National Geographic.

    Mauricio

  3. Drew, no one took Mauricios words out of context, he provides the context himself and makes it broader than the original topic. He says there is absolutely no space for altering of an image digitally in natural history, and that all effects should be done in-camera.

     

    I dont think anyone would disagree that a tame wolf, or fake smoke during a war, are indeed unacceptable. Manipulating the content of the image is a deadly sin. Like i said earlier, the photographer means to deceive. No one disputes that that is wrong I think. But there is more to it than adding smoke or using a tame wolf. The photographer of the Abu Ghriab images could have said to himself 'you know what, I dont remember these shadows in these dark halls to be so harsh, im going to lighten them up a bit so you can see more detail'. It changes nothing to what the image is about. It adds no prisoners, angry dogs or fake blood. Yet, it was 'altered digitally out-of-camera'. Im not sure how this works in photojournalism. Will a war journalist be brought down if he selectively adds a mask to brighten, darken, or whatever effect you want, a certain part of an image without changing what the image is about? Anyone know how this works?

     

    In nature photography this is obviously the case. In many contests they dont allow these types of selective changes, and you feel an undercurrent of disrespect to someone who does. And when you ask why, it's usually about the art of getting it right in-camera, like old-skool. But, really, when old-skool made print, thats all they did. Dodging, burning, to make the image closer to what they remember, and thus better. But in the digital age when we make our digital prints (ie: screen) we're now saying, dodging and burning (and other selective skills) are a sin, and anyone who uses them is highly suspect.

     

    Why is this? It fascinates me. Why was it ok for Ansel Adams and other masters (and we actually see it as part of their amazing skills) but not for us?

     

     

    Cor- Basic Raw processing not only acceptable but necessary to convert a RAW file into a final image. Levels (exposure), contract (curves) and sharpening are all ok and necessary to get the image out.

    Similar effects from a negative to a print.

    Again, this may be old school thinking but it really is not.

    To maintain the purity in an image that represents a wildlife moment is essential for credibility.

     

    The mastery in Ansel Adams and others was that they got the shot from the onset. He then had to (as we do) put it through some basic

    steps (chemical or digital) to finalize the image.

    Adams was primarily a landscape photographer. He picked the angle, the time and the moment to expose sometimes a single Glass plate.

     

    This thread is about subject manipulation and has evolved into image manipulation.

    You can manipulate all you want and gain the respect of your public and pears in the Commercial, creative, advertising and art world. Absolutely no issues with me on this.

    These can include wildlife subjects and moments as well and its all fine with me.

     

    To make it clear- what is not fine is to present a wildlife moment that has been manipulated, altered or interfered with in the

    context of a wildlife photo competition that disallows these interventions.

    That is all- no more, no less.

     

    I have had some of my images (with written permission) altered an manipulates for example by KODAK who used one of my underwater shots to promote one of its

    premium services. They wanted to color a single fish to set it apart from the school to which it was part of.

    The purpose was to make a statement with commercial ends. I off course accepted and got paid to this...

    The same finished image, although impressive, interesting and exciting CANNOT be entered into a wildlife competition.

     

    I am all for creativity using the tools of our day.

    But I am also for the purity of 'being there' and capturing an image the way you want it 'in-camera' and definitely without

    interfering with the subject matter in question.

     

    Mauricio

    Edited by Drew
  4. Cor- Basic Raw processing not only acceptable but necessary to convert a RAW file into a final image. Levels (exposure), contract (curves) and sharpening are all ok and necessary to get the image out.

     

    I realize that basic raw processing is necessary :) Im not talking about that. But ok, you're right, this thread is about subject manipulation, so lets drop it. If you'd like to discuss this further, i could start another thread specifically about darkroom vs. 'lightroom' editing. If not, thats ok as well.

     

    I completely agree with you that subject manipulation should be avoided. It's rare to meet a photographer that feels at ease harming animals to pose better, or as someone said, even destroy the reef. Ive seen it, from wellknown photographers, and it saddens me. But even subject manipulation has a lot of nuances, as it's not only about touching. What about introducing foods or scent, as one would to for instance lure in oceanic white tips? Or blocking escape routes? Or 'forcing' a school of fish into a ball just by being there. Would those swirling barracuda shots that many people have started swirling if the divers hadnt been there?

     

    Thanks for participating in this thread, it's very much appreciated!

  5. This thread is about subject manipulation and has evolved into image manipulation.

    Mauricio

    Mauricio

     

    IMHO subject manipulation IS image manipulation but is ALWAYS unacceptable in a natural history context.

     

    The points that I raise are that by limiting the photographers' usage of the raw files, the inevitable result is that limits are placed on new techniques such as focus stacking which may still produce a 'natural history' photograph (ie show a real subject albeit in a different way), but which lie outside apparently 'acceptable' parameters. I would also add that there are many underwater subjects which cannot be entered into underwater photography competitions because they live in very turbid conditions and backscatter IS inevitable, and is not removable by the underwater photographer's skills whilst underwater - I personally see no problem in skillful adjustments which reduce backscatter in such cases (although I fully accept that it negates the use of an image in competitions). Without discussion the acceptability, or otherwise, of techniques rarely gets raised and it takes longer to overcome the reticence by some, of accepting that things have changed with the digital onslaught.

  6. To make it clear- what is not fine is to present a wildlife moment that has been manipulated, altered or interfered with in the

    context of a wildlife photo competition that disallows these interventions.

    That is all- no more, no less.

    This is beyond discussion. If a contest disallows something, thats the end of it. Unfortunately many photographers think they can get away with it. When I co-judged (eric had no time) the wetpixel context 2 years ago, I was in charge of getting people's originals when they passed on to the next round. It was eye opening and saddening to see how many images were obviously altered, manipulated or otherwise against the rules. I had to disqualify a significant amount of images. In the wetpixel contests we take this very seriously.

     

    So, wonder if we're going to see the raw series of the sea moth.

  7. Having just read through this topic I've seen the ebb and flow of the conversation switch between subject and image manipulation. The M-word is certainly a cause for some confusion among digital camera users. Image manipulation is an altogether different debate from subject manipulation which is raging throughout the photographic industry and I won't give my 2 pence (I'm British) here on that. But I can see where the confusion comes in. Taking a mediocre image and making it technically shine in a computer is now the done thing and so the same thinking is sometimes used with the subject - just move it to a better position and the image is done. This, as several people here have pointed out, is not acceptable. All photographers should know this, but yet recently there have been several often high profile, disqualifications from competitions.

     

    Disqualifying someone for over saturation or the removal of another animal or the blurring of a background are all understandable as people try and cheat the final image, but physically moving a wild animal cannot be condoned by anyone. There are grey areas of course - baiting being one - but at least the animal has free will to take the bait. I see moving a subject or removing a plant etc from a picture in the same light as captive animals. They have no place in wildlife photography.

  8. This is beyond discussion. If a contest disallows something, thats the end of it. Unfortunately many photographers think they can get away with it. When I co-judged (eric had no time) the wetpixel context 2 years ago, I was in charge of getting people's originals when they passed on to the next round. It was eye opening and saddening to see how many images were obviously altered, manipulated or otherwise against the rules. I had to disqualify a significant amount of images. In the wetpixel contests we take this very seriously.

    So it was you who disqualified my turtle riding on a rainbow with a bird? Was it because I removed too much backscatter? :)

     

    So, wonder if we're going to see the raw series of the sea moth.

     

    Judging from the (non)response of LAUPS and the stories I've heard about the contest, I'd say the likelihood is pretty low. Hopefully I'm wrong. To be fair to LAUPS, they don't have to be that open about things, but to not even respond to the queries (maybe they did to Eric) of the community? Massive FAIL on that!

  9. So it was you who disqualified my turtle riding on a rainbow with a bird? Was it because I removed too much backscatter? :)

     

     

     

    Judging from the (non)response of LAUPS and the stories I've heard about the contest, I'd say the likelihood is pretty low. Hopefully I'm wrong. To be fair to LAUPS, they don't have to be that open about things, but to not even respond to the queries (maybe they did to Eric) of the community? Massive FAIL on that!

    As one of the VPs of the LAUPS, I can tell you that we are taking this all very seriously and are investigating this actively. We don't want to make quick decisions without all the facts. As soon as we have all the data we will let you know the outcome of the investigation. Unfortunately with the holidays and dive trips this hasn't gone as fast as we would have liked but it is ongoing.

     

    Bill

  10. Thanks Bill. We look forward to the results of your investigation.

  11. Well, it has been a month.....And the results are?

  12. Luzifull, you do know the 1st post should be coherent? :)

     

    As a follow-up, I emailed Kelly Bracken about this a week ago and she has not replied. As before, it is up to LAUPS to decide whether to respond or not.

  13. Luzifull, you do know the 1st post should be coherent? :)

     

    As a follow-up, I emailed Kelly Bracken about this a week ago and she has not replied. As before, it is up to LAUPS to decide whether to respond or not.

     

    Sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone. We have contacted the photographer in question. The image of the Iguana was taken in Cuba where he says the iguanas swim between small islets. He further says he waited for a couple of hours to get the iguana shot. In the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty" and absent any definite evidence to the contrary the first prize will stand. The image of the Pegasus Sea Moth was also questioned and the photographer says he jumped in the water and the fish was there, so again we have no reason to doubt his word.

     

    Our rules state that subjects in unnatural environments are not allowed, but we all know that some iguanas do swim unprovoked so this image was not automatically disqualified.

     

    We are sorry that this has taken so long to resolve but there were many contributing factors involved.

     

    Bill for LAUPS

    Edited by bvanant
  14. I had no photos in this contest, and I know this sounds rude; but you are just taking his word for it??? If that is the case why bother making the call? Was there a request to show any supporting photos?

    Edited by NWDiver
  15. I had no photos in this contest, and I know this sounds rude; but you are just taking his word for it??? If that is the case why bother making the call? Was there a request to show any supporting photos?

    We asked for an explanation and we received one and it is plausible enough that yes we took his word for it. The alternative is to categorically say that he is lying without any evidence which is even more rude. Without very specific knowledge, who can categorically say that this iguana, living in this environment (a series of tiny cayes near Cuba) doesn't swim. On our last trip to Ambon, we saw chickens swimming although we all know that chickens don't swim. Turns out that a guy on the shore throws his chickens into the water and they swim back to him. If I had a wide angle lens (and some skill, but that is another story) I could have had a great shot of a chicken. I didn't manipulate the animal in any way, and the chicken went for a swim at least 10 times. Is it unnatural; probably yes but for that chicken on that day, he was surely swimming.

    Ultimately it is a judgement call and as I said earlier, the guy is innocent until there is reasonable evidence of guilt.

     

     

    Bill (not for LAUPS but just my opinion)

  16. As for the iguana shot while suspect who knows? The sea moth is another story, one I am not personally buying. In most cases you would have photos of it on the bottom and then as it "took off".... As for your chicken example, IMHO that is a case of manipulation, throwing the chicken in is the same as having another person launch the sea moth into the water column. If the chicken swam out on it's own then different story. Not meaning to pick a fight just my very humble opinion.

  17. Bill

    Thanks for the reply. I have to say that analogy isn't really a good one. I've always known that chickens can float and "swim" on the surface. The unoiled feathers trap enough air for a chicken to float and they know to walk/paddle. I'm pretty sure if you check on youtube, you'll find like a bunch of JackAss types throwing chickens into pools just for kicks. But do they jump into the water by themselves?

    With your explanation, I'm interpreting that as if Photographer X gets someone else to throw a chicken into the water, then it's not unnatural because he's just capturing the swimming, which is natural, and you can't prove Photographer X didn't throw the chicken in? :)

    Now I suppose it is subjective and a judgement call but seamoths are benthic because they don't have swim bladders, if I remember correctly. To take a shot of the bottom of a benthic animal with no swim bladder, with a black background with a 60mm @ full frame, even with 1/160 shutter, I suppose the photograph is pretty impressive, if very questionable as to how it was taken, which I thought was the point of this discussion.

     

    LAUPS rules state:

     

    Animals moved to an unnatural environment or risky location (including bottom dwellers moved or driven up into the water column).

    Edited by Drew
  18. As for the iguana shot while suspect who knows? The sea moth is another story, one I am not personally buying. In most cases you would have photos of it on the bottom and then as it "took off".... As for your chicken example, IMHO that is a case of manipulation, throwing the chicken in is the same as having another person launch the sea moth into the water column. If the chicken swam out on it's own then different story. Not meaning to pick a fight just my very humble opinion.

    Again, my opinion here, not official LAUPS response. The pegasus was a 5th place image. If someone else had scared the seamoth into the water column and the photographer happened to not see the event but did see the seamoth then he is only guilty of being lucky and in the right place at the right time. More importantly, seamoths normally don't go up into the water column but according to Herold and Clark

     

    "E. draconis are broadcast spawners and observations of the species in situ suggest that it is monogamous. Pairings of individuals were maintained for at least 22 days (Herold and Clark 1993). After two spawnings in captivity, there were 253 and 236 eggs collected respectively (Herold and Clark 1993). Spawning by pairs has been observed to occur at dusk ex situ when pairs travel up the water column to release and fertilise eggs. Spawning activities may occur daily during the summer breeding season. E. draconis do not appear to be territorial or site attached (Herold and Clark 1993)."

    So they can go up in the water column, not driven there by a diver. So, the water column might be a rare site for a pegasus but not un-natural. In any case, I hope this ends this chapter. Trying to be a policeman is not much fun, especially since no one can unambiguously say that there was either subject manipulation or that the beasties in question were put in an un-natural environment.

     

    Bill

  19. Bill

    Thanks for the reply. I have to say that analogy isn't really a good one. I've always known that chickens can float and "swim" on the surface. The unoiled feathers trap enough air for a chicken to float and they know to walk/paddle. I'm pretty sure if you check on youtube, you'll find like a bunch of JackAss types throwing chickens into pools just for kicks. But do they jump into the water by themselves?

    With your explanation, I'm interpreting that as if Photographer X gets someone else to throw a chicken into the water, then it's not unnatural because he's just capturing the swimming, which is natural, and you can't prove Photographer X didn't throw the chicken in? :)

    Now I suppose it is subjective and a judgement call but seamoths are benthic because they don't have swim bladders, if I remember correctly. To take a shot of the bottom of a benthic animal with no swim bladder, with a black background with a 60mm @ full frame, even with 1/160 shutter, I suppose the photograph is pretty impressive, if very questionable as to how it was taken, which I thought was the point of this discussion.

     

    LAUPS rules state:

     

    Animals moved to an unnatural environment or risky location (including bottom dwellers moved or driven up into the water column).

    Drew: My point was not that at all, sorry for being obtuse. My point about the chicken was that if a guy happened to surface from a dive underneath a chicken swimming back to shore, he could legitimately say that he didn't do anything wrong (he didn't get the guy to through it in, it was just there). I would have still disqualified it for being un-natural. As for the seamoths, they don't have swim bladders but according to Herold and Clark, they swim up into the water column to mate (like mandarin fish). My understanding of the rules is that "moved" in the rules means purposefully moved by the photographer or with her knowledge. No one is sure about this picture except the photographer and his explanation coupled with the fact that seamoths can swim into the column at least to spawn makes me personally (again this is my opinion) not willing to say categorically the guy cheated. Unfortunately this is really a no-win situation since it appears that many of the folks in this discussion suggest we should have just thrown out the images. We did ask for an explanation, we got one and it was plausible enough to keep the pics in the contest since no one can say with certainty that the seamoth was put where the pic was taken.

     

    Bill

  20. LAUPS,

    I did not have any photos entered and have no vested interest in this........but I say BAD SHOW on your parts.

     

    Your next contest I might have to enter some boxer crabs (pretty much always manipulated), a mimic high in the water column, a porcupine fish all puffed up, and that flamboyant cuttlefish swimming over my head. If you ask me I will tell you I found them that way....for sure!

     

    Do cyclura swim? Yes. Do they do it on a normal basis, no. They pretty much have to be chased, unlike green Igs. Sea moths just happening to swim over the photographers head.....oh, sure.

     

    Sad way to judge, IMHO.

Isotta

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