Titan D100 review

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moved to new thread

Wow, how about board management, a reply is moved to a new topic, then the thread is closed. That will be easy to follow in future searches, etc.

I gotta' hand it to you Craig and James.

Since I can't follow up what Rod posted in the thread he was moved to, I'll have to do it here.

This is the first Light & Motion SLR, housing, it won't be the last. Do you honestly think Nexus, Aquatica, and Subal (my opinion, the widest port lines in the industry) built their line overnight? I don't.

I know they listened to feedback from users, and built the ports that were needed as they were needed.

What makes you think Light & Motion won't do the same? They've started with a line of great ports, that supports 99% of D100 user's port desires. These ports are built spared no expense (If you want prices you can download them off of the Light&Motion website Craig). By this, they are engineered for the lens (how many other manufacturers built a new extension ring for the 12-24?), and are full featured. I don't expect a midrange zoom until the 17-55, and the 10.5 is a challege with the current shade, but a fisheye port may be on the way as well. That leaves the 200 mm, which can be handled with existing extension rings, but a/m is lost. I haven't tested a 70-180, but personally see no need to support a discontinued lens with less than ideal reproduction ratio and max aperture.

The electronics will prove themselves. Rod is exatly right, the most reliable control at them moment is a mechanical control. I think the future will unveil a shift, with electronic control's reliability surpassing mechanical. An electronic control won't misalign with pressure, isn't succeptible to corrosion, can be placed in the most ergonomic orientation for the user, and won't flood a housing.

Hi Gang,

I thought breaking off the thread was a smart move on Craig's part. It had split into a commercial discussion of whether the reviewer is qualified or should even be writing the review in the first place. It was no longer about the product being discussed. Once "both sides of the fence" had a chance to reply to that, I closed it - that seems fair and pretty straightforward to me. And I think that most of the members here would support that decision. Folks, if you don't agree, please let us know in the feedback forum.

Ryan said:

Wow, how about board management, a reply is moved to a new topic, then the thread is closed. That will be easy to follow in future searches, etc.

 

I gotta' hand it to you Craig and James.

 

Since I can't follow up what Rod posted in the thread he was moved to, I'll have to do it here.

This thread is still open for the relevant part of the discussion of the pros and cons of the housing and we appreciate your feedback as a TitanD100 user Ryan.

Cheers

James

Light and Motion will be a great dSLR housing mfr in time. The Titan D100 has resolved the handle issues that plagued the Titan E20, and I'm sure their line of domes and ports will grow quickly. It'll be interesting to see whether they house the E1 - a controversial camera but LMI has always housed Olympus. I'm glad to see them shift to Nikon.

Back to the flood issue, Subal, Aquatica and Seacam have all modified their port systems in the last 5-10 years. I suspect that LMI's may call for some improvements down the road. But if John's rear door was the source of the leak, I can certainly say that LMI's door latches are fantastic.

Gee wiz, I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I have no axe to grind with L&M, Rod or the Titan housing. I would love for it to be a startling success. The issues I noted were:

1) All reviews should include full disclosures. This includes me, Ryan, Stephen Frink (in case anyone didn't know he was the Seacam distributor), Mauricio.

2) There were two floods, how and why? This is information a potential purchaser and user would like to know.

3) I thought a synopsis of lenses supported and ports would be helpful to the review. Again, not as criticism, but as a conveyance of information. E.g. is there a setup that works well for the popular 12-24mm. If not, is one expected. Heck, we talk about it all the time; what works with Ikelite or the new Jonah, etc.

I don't believe any of these points are part of a bashing conspiracy.

This is the first Light & Motion SLR, housing, it won't be the last.  Do you honestly think Nexus, Aquatica, and Subal (my opinion, the widest port lines in the industry) built their line overnight?  I don't.

 

I know they listened to feedback from users, and built the ports that were needed as they were needed.

 

What makes you think Light & Motion won't do the same?  They've started with a line of great ports, that supports 99% of D100 user's port desires.

 

...

I just think that LMI should actually do that before anyone declare their line of ports to be so great. Fact is, LMI's competition has complete port lines and LMI does not. LMI doesn't support 99% of this user's port desires. Anyone out there with 100 lenses they want to use and 99 of them work in LMI ports? Gross exxagerations like that are at the heart of the problem. Why can't LMI fans just state things as they are?

As for the other points, there was the suggestion that bundling the diopter was proof that LMI has "really did their homework on their optics." That's absurd. It means they bundled a diopter. It's not like diopters are mystery parts or that no one else bundles any. I wondered how big a markup LMI was getting on that bundle.

A few other points. The 70-180 is rumored discontinued but I don't know of any confirmation. Do you know different? In any event, its ultimate magnfication is quite good (1.5:1.33) on the D100 and it's plenty fast enough to focus with. I doubt you've used it, Ryan, because you wouldn't talk of it being deficient if you had. It is a great lens.

LMI can't house the 200mm well or the 105mm with teleconverters, so high magnifcations are out. I suppose you could use Aquatica ports, but why not just use Aquatica?

The fact that the 70-180, the 200, and the 105+tele aren't supported means that not one macro lens setup I want to use is supported by the LMI port range.

Electronic controls will be subject to corrosion.

I suppose you could use Aquatica ports, but why not just use Aquatica?

 

 

 

 

 

Electronic controls will be subject to corrosion.

I suppose you could use Aquatica ports, but why not just use Aquatica?

Because the finish quality is far superior, the LMI is very responsive, and the Titan is 1/2 the size and feels better in the hands. Not to mention the ROC control.

Electronic controls will be subject to corrosion.

In 3 years, 2 electronic LMI housings, and 400-500 dives, I've never had a corrosion issue with my LMI housings, and the new circuit boards are coated and sealed from moisture - mine were not. That is not to say that I haven't had an electronic problem here or there, but never caused by corrosion.

On the flip side, in less than 2 months and 50 dives, each of my manual A100 housings developed corrosion on the flash mode control rod. It was severe enough, in both cases, that I damaged the outer oring using the control. The idea of fewer pistons through the housing appeals to me greatly.

I'm very much on the fence in the electronic vs manual debate. I think that when mechanical controls are well executed, as in the Subal-Nexus-Seacam housings, they may be more reliable. But I think that the electronic controls are not far behind, and they are optimal as long as they are functioning correctly. The big drawback is that you won't be finding quick solutions in the field like you might with a manual housing.

Not a Light and Motion fanatic, in particular, just offering my experience with their equipment service. I look forward with great interest to see how their dSLR housings mature.

Hi Gang,

with interest I followed the review (thanxx Rod!). I do not know if I got it right, but as far as I understood there are almost all D100 controls available through a wire and only few mechnanical controls left.

Maybe this is a new era of housings? So far I have seen this approach with video housings. But when I discussed this with Eric in Antibes he told me that they have the advantage of a universal remote control protocol which does not exist for DSLRs so far.

So how did L&M make this work? Reverse engineering? I think it's very time consuming. But the result is a quantum leap in housing ergonomics.

Maybe Rod can give some more words on which controls are electronically available and if he sees a chance for this with other camera modells too.

thanks, Andi

My point with electronic controls and corrosion is that the buttons that provide the control are still mechanical and still exposed. In addition, the electronic contacts are subject to corrosion. I'd didn't say those problems couldn't be solved, but Ryan said "An electronic control ... isn't succeptible to corrosion..." and that's just not true. They are equally, if not more, susceptible.

I'd like to mention that the Titan has electronics in more than one place. It has them inside the housing but also inside each grip. If you think the grips won't fail, you are wrong. I've personally had LMI grip electronics failures along with tray failures and monitor failures. In fact, in all the years I've owned housings (over 10) I've only lost LMI housings on trips and that's happened 4 or 5 times. No other manufacturer has let me down. Every LMI product I've owned with electronics in it has failed on me, some multiple times, and I've owned 5 counting lights and monitors. I don't count my Sunray since it hasn't made a trip yet. I have seen them fail, though, and there are reports in the forums.

I'm a big fan of electronic controls, just not LMI ones. I think LMI's machine work is very fine. It's a shame they lack the commitment or understanding necessary to make their electronics bulletproof since they would make fine products otherwise. It would take a history of success as long as their history of failure to convince me otherwise and they haven't started yet.

I have 2 sunrays and they have both failed mysteriously at least once. When they are working, they are the best modeling lights I've ever used. Therefore, I've purchased a backup to keep me going. I guess the downside to electronic stuff is that it is expensive to back up.

On another note, I seem to remember that the pistons and buttons on the LMI handles are plastic, therefore not succeptible to corrosion. I had to take mine apart frequently on my Titan because the orings would dry out and the buttons got sticky. Again, a carryover from their video systems that had unforseeable problems on the dSLR housing. The shutter button on a dSLR gets pressed far more frequently than the rec button on a video housing. Easy remedy once I figured out what was going on.

Also, the handles have redundancy if they are like the video handles the controls can be switched. ie if the right handle fails, its functions can be served by the left handle by holding 2 buttons down simultaneously. This was the case with my Mako, and hopefully with the Titan.

I'm very much on the fence about which is better - mechanical or electric. It is certainly nice to be able to slide the camera in the housing without worrying that ever control is in the right position, and the potential for upgradeable housings may lie in electronic controls. If LMI developed a slightly larger housing (the D100 fits the Titan perfectly), you might be able to slide anything from a D1x to a 300D in the same box with different mounting trays and circuit boards. How cool would that be!!!

Please re read the review. the section on flooding was to demonstrate the quality of the electronics and L&M committment to this area.

To repeat: Both Floods Were User Error!!!! Not one problem since.

Control questions are answered in links below.

for more info go to Titan Housing Webpage

Titan Tech info PDF

Rod Klein

Kasey, I don't disagree with you on the corrosion issue. It's just that electronic controls have corrosion issues to deal with just like mechanical ones do. You could makes shafts and bushings out of non-corrosive materials, for example, like the buttons apparently are. Electrical contacts are inherently vulnerable to corrosion and only half of them are under LMI's control. I've personally never considered corrosion a serious mechanical problem. It's never hurt me on any mechanical control but it bites me frequently with my electrical connectors.

I bought the very first Mako housing and received it the day before the trip. When I got it out to use it, one of the two grips was dead. During the trip the other grip died. So much for redundancy. On the third dive, the mechanical on-off switch, made of plastic, literally shattered inside the housing. It was a part required to flex when the camera was inserted/removed and it was not made of an appropriate material. That's three failures on one trip.

When I got back, I found that the broken part was replaced by a different, more flexible one. I also found out that the grips had a tendency to self-activate and run their batteries down. All these things could be resolved permanently, but that should have been the case before they began shipping.

I have plenty of more serious problems I could describe about repeated LMI failures and products of defective design that they continued to ship, some apparently to this day. None of them are relevant to the Titan but they call into question LMI's commitment (or ability) to fix engineering mistakes with regards to electronics. I've heard from some that LMI's problem is quality control, not design, and that they blame their suppliers, but how many years must customers suffer while LMI fails to fix it?

I recently purchased the Sunray modlight in spite of my aversion to LMI products. It's too great a modeling light to pass up. I do expect problems with them and will soon buy a 2nd one like you have done. Everything is a compomise, and a sunray modlight regardless of reliability is still the best modlight available, just as you say.

I think LMI is a company with good ideas and one that does excellent machine work. It's too bad they've consistently failed to correct their electrical issues on so many products over so long a period of time. I agree that the LMI D100 control setup is appealing and I'd be tempted if it came from anyone else.

I was considering an LM Titan D100 housing, but now I am backing off for two main reasons.

1. Cannot bypass the ROC for TTL when it becomes available. Thus I am forced to shoot only manual ROC mode and not have the flexibility of both options, manual ROC or manual operator control (when that option arises). Consequently, I will either have to pay for a serious future upgrade to the already 3k housing assuming that upgrade becomes available, or sell it and buy another housing.

2. If ROC fails, there is no "electronics bypass" or hard connect feature to switch to full manual control (kinda like the Nik V shooting in M90). I am not wanting to invest in backup electronics on top of the housing cost. To me that is anticipating failure, although going overseas, it may be a good idea.

L&M needs to make some major changes to that housing to be more accomodating to the user. Ie.. manual aperture and shutter speed option, strobe back-up options etc, so we are not relying solely on sensitive electronics. Electronics and seawater just don't mix, so you'd think backup options would be part of the design.

Just my opinion, of course.

Joe

Hi Guys

I have been shooting the Titan since June/July 03 and have had an awesome time with it.How many dives you may ask?,3 to 4 dives a day on the Belize Aggressor up until october so lets say thats 300 dives and its been working great for me.

Lets be fair to Rod ,when he is on an Aggressor he is teaching guests and so often has 6 to 8 other housings to take care of as well as his own,so life can be fairly hectic.I can say this as I have worked along side him.

I have flooded other housings before and its always because I was in a rush to get in the water and made a mistake, ask any photgrapher who works on a liveaboard its hardly ever the equipment,its the user.

No I'm not a Light and Motion dealer,but they put out a fine product.

Steve

May I wade in by first stating that I am the Seacam dealer for the UK and Ireland. I also buy and sell used housings! This gives me a very interesting picture of what happens to them. I have no experience of the Titan, but the following may be of interest.

Most floods are due, in my experience, to user error. Sometimes this is due to the design of the housing which allows users to make assembly mistakes, but being brutally honest about it, my experience is that most could be avoided by the user taking more care in maintaining and assembling the housing.

I have found that many (I mean this) floods have been caused by things getting trapped in the main ‘O’ ring seal – especially lanyards (on one occasion made out of a bootlace!). I find this baffling, but it happens. I recommend anyone new to underwater photography to try their housing several times without the camera in it. This ensures that they can assemble and seal it correctly.

Despite this floods occur and in every case to date, where I have supplied the housing, they have been due to user error – reassembly and retesting has shown no problem. Experienced users of housings can have problems as I have seen people take ‘calculated’ risks in a hurry, assembling the housing quickly and not re-lubricating ‘O’ rings in order to get in the water for a shot. Most of the time they seem to get away with it, but not always.

It is clearly not an ideal situation to have a housing design which predisposes it towards a potential flood. But given the low volume of sales and the difficulties of designing housings, I believe that most designs will have compromises somewhere, and the extensive long-term testing will inevitably be carried out by their users.

I would go as far as to say that dealing with minor inadequacies is a part and parcel of owning such equipment and with the rapidly changing digital cameras I suspect that this is likely to remain the case. As an example of what I mean, take Subals screw down clamps. Now replaced by a far more elegant latch system, the screw downs worked fine, provided the user used them correctly and as Subal recommended. I used these type of Subal housings for 8 years and had one flood – due to impact damage which dislodged a port – hardly a design problem!

On this note it is worth my while stating that longevity (perhaps not such an issue with digital housings) is another aspect of design which is difficult to assess. My own experience is that Seacam (no not bias, just fact) and Subal are the housings I find easiest to work on and service. These two manufacturers produce equipment which suffers little corrosion and for which I find spares easy to obtain. I wish I could say the same for all manufacturers, but it simply wouldn’t be correct. (No doubt this statement will arouse comment, but be aware that I am referring to the UK situation!).

In response to the requests for allegiances and loyalties to be disclosed, I have recently switched to using a Fuji S2Pro in a Seacam housing. I do not use equipment I am not wholly satisfied with, and certainly don’t sell it. Since I got this housing it has performed flawlessly and I have no complaints about it. And I will add the 45 degree finder (when money permits and I’ve sold off my own 35mm gear) which will address the small viewfinder image problem. My choice of this housing was made because it and the camera fulfilled my requirements and I am satisfied that it does just what I expected. Having used the S2Pro above water since it became available, there are areas in its design which I would like to see addressed, but for me it was the best choice of the cameras currently available. Although I also use a D1X I felt that the straightforward conventional ttl on the S2 was a real advantage for macro work.

BTW, on a recent trip on the Cayman Aggressor, there were m 4 digitl housings: 2 Titans, 1 Nexus, and 1 Tetra. The only housing to flood was the NEXUS D100 and it a happened twice!!!

So it only goes to show that it can really happen to anyone, anytime and all fuss with my review and the flooding situation is a non issue. I have been using this housing continually since July and it has been flawless.

Just a thought on LM products. I know two professional videographers. One uses a LM housing and has used several in the past. Swears by them. It is not uncommon when we are on a dive boat to see him working on his electronics. It seems as though it it quite common that the lights won't work or some part on the electronic controls won't work. He always gets them working and he loves the housings.

The other's gear gets hard use and you would say not religious maintenance. He started with LM housings (several of them) and swears AT them. He now uses the totally mechanical gates housing and never has a problem no matter how much he abuses it. He insists you should never buy anything else. And he doesn't have a lot of money to spend on housings. Says you will always get the shot with a Gates.

Only peripherally related to the LM D100 housing but just the thoughts of two professionals on electronic controls.

Hi everyone,

Lars & I were able to take a closer look at the Light and Motion Tetra housing on

the BOOT expo in Düsseldorf, Germany. We were impressed by the smooth and

elegant design. The electronic control approach is something that offers you

completely new ergonomic opportunities.

The finishing looks clean and sturdy. Our impression was that it really plays in

the upper class of underwater housings among Seacam but with another

technical approach.

offtopic: You can read more in our Boot expo review which is still under

construction but available here....

http://www.digideep.com/articles.php?id=7

Our impression was that it really plays in  the upper class of underwater housings among Seacam but with another technical approach.   

 

offtopic: You can read more in our Boot expo review which is still under construction but available here....

http://www.digideep.com/articles.php?id=7

Ah yes, the wrong one. Look forward to your opinion after a few trips with a Tetra/Titan.

Your BOOT coverage was interesting. Looks like Subtronic is doing the same kind of thing Aquatica is with their strobe signal decoding.

Nice to see Uwe at UK still exists. I've had emails in to him for over a month now without a response.