Aquatica 300D will have TTL!

OK, well, I really "dodged" it because I don't want this to turn into a Nikon vs Canon thread...:-)

I would get the S2 again over the D-rebel and the Aquatica 300D housing. Nikon's lenses for sensors of this size are simply much better at this point in time. That may change, but today, it's the case. Good wideangle zoom, true fisheye, 70-180 macro zoom, 60mm macro does 1:1, etc.

But it's bigger, costs more, and Fuji may have the "next big thing" around the corner for a PMA announcement...

There, did that make your decision easier? Heh :-)

Cheers

James

Congratulations on that Eric. I didn't really know for sure and didn't want to press the point if it was going to cause a problem.

Rand

We're going to be taking more site "sponsors" soon, but Wetpixel as a community will always stay impartial. I refuse to take sponsorship if it means that I have to censor myself or anyone officially affiliated with Wetpixel. If you see this changing, please slap me -- in the feedback forum, or via e-mail.

..... and Fuji may have the "next big thing" around the corner for a PMA announcement...

 

There, did that make your decision easier? Heh :-)

 

Cheers

James

Actually James, yes it did. Think I'll wait and see what Fuji says. To my eye, the S2 is producing the quality of image I like. Both in sharpness and tones. How or why I don't really know. If there is an S3 anounced or whatever...I'll look at that. I get the feeling you may think I'm trying to corner you on the issue. That's not the case. But as you say, the thread isn't about a comparison so lets leave it where it is.

Rand

I think a large percentage of TTL shots underwater require some compensation for a proper exposure.

I don't fully agree, if your strobes are positioned correctly it will work every time and can be used in conjunction with aperture & shutter controls and ISO.

 

Nikonos type strobe fittings will almost certainly be utilised by Aquatica and consequently giving a choice of Nikonos, S&S Duo & N, Inon etc. Otherwise building the interface module was pointless. Preflash will not work with standard low technology strobes; the thyrister dischage is controled by an integral IC only found in surface dedicated units. So in reality using housed canon strobes may be a better alternative if one needs preflash.

Not sure whether S&S still do their Canon dedicated strobe anymore (YS60C).

Bob, I'm very interested in your view on this. As you know, I've never used TTL underwater. I do remember a talk by Larry and Denise Tackett at an NCUPS meeting about a year ago where they discribed how they took some of their photos. They shoot TTL and quite a few of their shots were taken with some flash exposure compensation. That's where I learn that Nikonos shooter use the ISO setting for that purpose.

Here're a couple of examples I'd like your comment on:

This was taken with DR which has a reputation for under exposing flash photos:

Having no reflected light from the flash over a large percentage of the area fooled the TTL into over exposing.

Here's one that I think would suffer the same fate had I used TTL with no compensation.

Could that be avoided with strobe placement alone?

Very interesting thread. The Aquatica break through means I am going to have to rewrite my BSOUP talk for next week! Surely the same circuitry is needed for the 10D and D60? I can't imagine Canon used different flash protocols for each?

---

Herb, one thing I have noticed amongst my diving friends is that those with older cameras F801s F90x etc more regularly use TTL compensation (usually underexposing by 1/3 to 2/3s of a stop), than users of more modern Nikons with better flash metering. The newer Nikons have better multi-zone flash metering (not the same as matrix ambient light meter) and are able to deal with the small foreground subjects and off centre subjects. The Nik V, if I remember correctly has just a single zone TTL sensor, that doesn't even cover the whole frame that well.

I'll leave Bob to comment on the flash positioning. I love the balance of light you have achieved in the goby shot. IMO you would be able to achieve that with TTL on a Nikon F5 or F100, but would burn out the goby on a F801, F90 or Nik V.

Alex

Hong Kong looks great at night eh, but you sure looked pale!

This was my point exactly regarding blowing out the foreground, especially in AP. Without knowing your settings it's difficult to comment further. What flash were you using?

The second shot yes, TTL would have worked without compensation as the reflected light would have been enough with subject so close to the focal plane. I have the same shot (not surprisingly) but away at a magazine and unscanned; taken with TTL.

Both f. stop and strobe positioning would be important creatively, but my preset f.22 and strobe positioning covers most macro situations and is relatively unchallanging, leaving the tired remnants of my brain to juggle with composition.

Using a dedicated gun is generally more flexible allowing smaller apertures to be used. Certain program modes offer good alternatives too. My little Oly C-100 has a night shot mode which would have sorted the first shot out automatically! One of the programmable flash options on my Dynax 9's will do the same job, not sure if that is available on the DR?

Compensating by reducing output is no longer TTL as such, as it becomes flash fill which has to be balanced. I'm so used to doing these things in my head automatically, I've forgotten how to offer a practical explanation!

Example TTL shot (Nikonos V with single YS120)

f.11 @ 1/90 using 100 ASA Agfa conveyor chip.

I use 90x's now Alex, and my TTL exposures are perfect without having worried about compensation (including several whip goby & xenocrabs). I took 720 macro images in Lembeh using TTL, 688 are publishable the rest suffered from a sync lead or focusing problem (my eyes in SM).

Bob, you wasted nearly a whole roll! I think your high strike rate demonstrates what can be achieved by someone who really knows their kit.

I think photographers can often over complicate things - by dialling unnecessary compensation and fiddling with settings that work.

Alex

Yes, working it out it was almost a roll, Far less waste than a Nikonos for sure!

I'll bet it'll surprise the hell out of you to learn that I had never used this kit before... In fact it arrived in Manado in the different bags of different divers from different countries Great... but then i had to take it back to UK myself: No wonder my heart packed up

..... and Fuji may have the "next big thing" around the corner for a PMA announcement...

 

There, did that make your decision easier? Heh :-)

 

Cheers

James

Actually James, yes it did. Think I'll wait and see what Fuji says. To my eye, the S2 is producing the quality of image I like. Both in sharpness and tones. How or why I don't really know. If there is an S3 anounced or whatever...I'll look at that. I get the feeling you may think I'm trying to corner you on the issue. That's not the case. But as you say, the thread isn't about a comparison so lets leave it where it is.

Rand

Rand I understand waiting to see what PMA has to announce on the Fiji side. But, you seem to infer that the Canon is producing less pleasing images.

I am not sure I would make that statement right now as I have only seen maybe a dozen underwater shots with this camera.

As for price difference, correct me if I am wrong but, in the Aquatica realm the housing is about $300 more for the S2, the camera is about $500 more and you are starting with no lens (a pricey add) Thus, when you add up the tally it is a bit more than $400-500 to go to the S2. I have not factored in ports as they are transferable amoung the various housings produced and a moot point in terms of price comparisons.

To a person starting from scratch in terms of lenses and DSLR that is a big factor as the credit card limit can get maxed out very fast.

On the lens front, I would expect the market that the Rebel is grabbing will produce a lens selection that will catch up to Nikon very quickly (I was betting on this fact). As for quality of lenses I am not touching that debate as I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on this area. (Recent 12-24 Sigma review may already be indicating this)

Yes, agree with most of what is said in this thread. Many of the comments about "TTL doesn't work for this type of shot" are based on experience with older systems like the 8008 and Nikonos V. Those cameras had first generation TTL systems but many of the "godfather" underwater shooters that we hear from today (Larry and Denise, etc) used them as their first UW setup.

Newer cameras have a LOT of TTL sensors, not just one. They have advanced flash modes like "3-D multi-sensor balanced fill flash" that is supposed to take into account for reflective subjects and small subjects that don't fill the frame. It just takes a bit of experience with the different cameras before you get comfortable with how the system works - but I firmly believe that it DOES work.

Oh, and don't listen to Bob - he's full of beans! He borrowed someone elses strobes on the Manado trip - and they were NOT YS90DX's!

Cheers

James

I've met several folks who use TTL for wide angle and add negative exposure compensation.

The first tip I received from a pro was to do this. Just use minus .7-2.3 exposure compensation. I never quite found out how one calculated the amount. I found using the guide number chart on the back of the SS200 much easier and just shot manual. To each his own.

It's funny. I've had little interest in any new cameras. I'm not interested in an upgrade. The D100 works fine for me. Higher end models or full frame doesn't entice me one bit. But I've decided that I would like a backup camera. Another D100 would make the most sense. But for some reason, the unknown S3 is just gnawing at me. There are a couple of things I don't like about the S2. If they get fixed, I may start drooling again for the first time in well over a year. I just hope that don't overdo it and price it out of range.

I was on about camera bodies you plonker, and I do got a 60 a 90 & a 120. You don't have to take my word for it!

I love the "plonker" line, I'll have to use that one but man I thought you were Darren there in that last post.

But, yes James Bob had borrowed some Inon strobes in Lembeh but does have his own arsenal of strobes, he wanted to have two full set-ups going. You Plonker!

Man I like that one.

It can be used as a verb, adjective, and noun!

Plonk this you plonking plonker!

Cheers

James

If the Plonk fits wear it

I've considered getting a 300d and this talk about being able to get TTL with the Aquatica housing is plonkin' great news I think. Does anyone know how much the housing will be? What port to use with the standard Rebel lens and how much could I expect to pay for that little piece of plonk?

It was posted up about a month ago, I'll have to search to find the price but it was in the $1569USD range for the housing.

Add ports

Here it is

http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showt...l=digital+rebel

A little more Plonk that the 5000 but I expect to have a one Plonking good time with it.

Whoo hoo!! Guess this means that one of my predictions for 2004 came true!! Ok not "exactly" true, but close enough.

3. Some enterprising young UW housing / strobe manufacturer will crack either D-TTL or E-TTL (please let it be E-) with an add on controller much like the manual controller Ike sells now. It will essentially convert the propietary signal to straight TTL and will sell like wildfire.

Hong Kong looks great at night eh, but you sure looked pale!

 

This was my point exactly regarding blowing out the foreground, especially in AP. Without knowing your settings it's difficult to comment further. What flash were you using?

 

 

Example TTL shot (Nikonos V with single YS120)

 

f.11 @ 1/90 using 100 ASA Agfa conveyor chip.

That shot from Hong Kong was taken just before dinner and I was starved.

It was shot with the DR builtin flash, on manual exposure. I think Alex's observation, the metering capabilty of the cameras determine if compensation is needed, is correct. The DR, for whatever reason, uses "Center Weighted Average" metering when manual exposure is chosen. Since there was esentailly nothing but air in the center of my shot, it was over exposed. Had I parked myself in the middle of the frame, the photo would probably be properly exposed.

The same may apply to the lionfish shot Bob posted. Had the subject not been centered, that shot may also be over exposed.

Here's a chart on the DR exposure modes:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos30...ge6.asp#afmeter

"Partial" metering only use about 10% of the center of the frame so that would not have worked either. "Evaluative" may have worked, there's no detail discription of how that's done, but there's no way to get the camera to do that on manual exposure. I think centering the subject and hitting the flash exposure lock button and then reframe the photo would work. This is not desirable for shooting fish since the flash exposure lock fires the flash and is likely to spook the subject.