Removing water marks on port glass?

2 minutes ago, rlamarche said:

The glass surface was not smooth anymore, when rubbing it with the end of the finger.

I did see some-times the "cloud" effect when facing the sun with dark zones. In air, it was really visible. In water, not always.

Interesting. Each time  I have had this isuse I have never been able to detect any kind of abrasion on the surface of the glass. It's just that a "bloom" seems to have appeared on the surface. But you can't "feel" it. Yep, a "cloud" effect when held up to the light with dark and light patches. And, yes, not generally visible when is water.

There must be someone in the WP membership who can explain what's going on........ any chemists out there? Glass experts? 

9 minutes ago, TimG said:

I don't use a cap at all on the flatports. Never. On the domes I use a neoprene one. 

I can see the logic of what you suggest but wouldn't that mean in some way the neoprene prevents whatever chemical reaction might be happening? Which seems a bit unlikely. Wouldn't having something like neoprene, which might actually hold a degree of salt water, actually contribute towards a chemical reaction?

Indeed my hypothesis is hypothetic and "non expert" feeling. A friend of mine is a chemist, I'll ask him next time I see him.

My idea is that if the surface stays wet a very long time, the chemical reaction proceed. If you dry it, no reaction. And the hard cap prevent it from drying.

Maybe it depends with wich water you rinse it, I often thought about using demineralized water.

My WWL seems to dry just fine under the hard cap, which does not fit that tightly. I prefer it to maintaining a wet neoprene cover over the lenses, and the hard cap give better protection for handing the camera up to a boat crew.

The water spotting I believe is caused by letting sea water dry on the lens, as the water evaporates the concentration of salts increases and sea water is alkaline so the pH would also increase.  High pH can cause etching of glass eventually. You see that in chemical labs, many solutions are stored in bottles with ground glass stoppers - but strongly alkaline solutions were always stoppered with rubber or plastic.

Increased concentration of salts during evaporation or even high concentration of volatile compounds like ammonia or hydrogen sulphide during condensation is well recognised as a corrosion mechanism in industrial situations.  The solution is always dilution or preventing the concentration getting into the corrosive range.  The same applies to glass

This is where neoprene comes into play - it keeps the surface of the lens wet until such time as you can soak it - any drying occurs on the surface of the neoprene and that is where high concentrations of salt would occur,  not on the glass surface.  I always put a lens cap on my flat ports and cover the housing with a damp towel between dives and when going home - it prevents sea water drying out on the surface..  Domes are always fitted with wet neoprene cover.  After soaking blow water off with a blower bulb and mop up residual water with a micro fibre cloth and polish.

Nauticam dome ports advertise they use an anti scratch coating on the exterior of their domes - I would assume this also occurs on the the wet optics.  The coating might be hard but may or may not be more resistant to etching, either way DONT LET SALTWATER DRY ON YOUR OPTICS!

9 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

The water spotting I believe is caused by letting sea water dry on the lens, as the water evaporates the concentration of salts increases and sea water is alkaline so the pH would also increase.  High pH can cause etching of glass eventually. You see that in chemical labs, many solutions are stored in bottles with ground glass stoppers - but strongly alkaline solutions were always stoppered with rubber or plastic.

Increased concentration of salts during evaporation or even high concentration of volatile compounds like ammonia or hydrogen sulphide during condensation is well recognised as a corrosion mechanism in industrial situations.  The solution is always dilution or preventing the concentration getting into the corrosive range.  The same applies to glass

This is where neoprene comes into play - it keeps the surface of the lens wet until such time as you can soak it - any drying occurs on the surface of the neoprene and that is where high concentrations of salt would occur,  not on the glass surface.  I always put a lens cap on my flat ports and cover the housing with a damp towel between dives and when going home - it prevents sea water drying out on the surface..  Domes are always fitted with wet neoprene cover.  After soaking blow water off with a blower bulb and mop up residual water with a micro fibre cloth and polish.

Nauticam dome ports advertise they use an anti scratch coating on the exterior of their domes - I would assume this also occurs on the the wet optics.  The coating might be hard but may or may not be more resistant to etching, either way DONT LET SALTWATER DRY ON YOUR OPTICS!

 

Well, the thorough explanation is much appreciated, but not much helpful, since the saltwater appears to have already dried. The horse is already out of the barn.

The issue is what to do now? Let it be? Or try and polish it off? If it is mostly a cosmetic thing, let it be. If it affects IQ, then does polishing and thus removing some glass, make the IQ worse? Or the same? Or better? I know, it is a "it depends" kind of question. So what diagnostic might I use to decide whether to leave it as is, or attack it?

16 minutes ago, tursiops said:

Well, the thorough explanation is much appreciated, but not much helpful, since the saltwater appears to have already dried. The horse is already out of the barn.

The issue is what to do now? Let it be? Or try and polish it off? If it is mostly a cosmetic thing, let it be. If it affects IQ, then does polishing and thus removing some glass, make the IQ worse? Or the same? Or better? I know, it is a "it depends" kind of question. So what diagnostic might I use to decide whether to leave it as is, or attack it?

Well the best solution is prevention and others may benefit from seeing reasons to keep their port wet until it can be soaked.  These forums are a resource to both the person asking for a solution and to the many others reading them afterwards!

As to what to do now that is difficult to answer, many times the damage does not appear in images - in which case leave well alone and practice prevention from now on.  In the case where you an see the damage in images or indeed you can feel the etching with your finger then you have little to lose by polishing.

The problem arises as there is doubt about whether the optic has a coating and if so what it's function is.  Nauticam state their domes have an anti scratch coating in which case little optical harm may come from polishing it??  But the if the optics are impacted by the problem already, polishing is probably a good solution.  Coatings are usually visible and partially removing the coating would be seen in a change of reflectivity visible in certain light.  If after polishing no such un-eveness is seen you are probably OK?

This is all speculation as we really don't know if the polish is impacting any coating of just smoothing it out.  If it were an anti reflection coating changing the thickness of that would result in a change in the wavelength where minimum reflectivity occurs.  I suspect this would be visible as differing reflectivity over the surface of the dome.  

Don't know anyone in Nauticam or Subal who can answer this?

I imagine that they will see many ports in these conditions and that they will be able to answer about the origins of the chemical phenomenon and its solution and maybe even if the WWL1 or other glass domes have a coating.

I just recently removed water marks on a wwl1 hand polishing cerium oxide, just a jewlers suppiled powder. Took ages but it worked. I used a micro fibre cloth to hand polish. Also, before the polish, the water tension would break badly when doing underovers, i use an oring to keep the water between the wwl1 and macro 35 port. Now the water sticks much much better and longer to the front of the wwl1. Win win. 

Just an update: I've just used Mother Waterspot Remover and, yep, it's done the trick and removed the bloom from my Subal flat port.

So a BIG Thanks to Gudge on that one. 

On 8/3/2021 at 7:23 PM, TimG said:

Just an update: I've just used Mother Waterspot Remover and, yep, it's done the trick and removed the bloom from my Subal flat port.

So a BIG Thanks to Gudge on that one. 

 

Do you think will it remove the coating too?

Hey Davide

I'm not sure there is/was a coating. Certainly I couldn't see anything on the exterior of the glass when angled against light - other than the "bloom" which has now gone after the Mother treatment.

I've always had polycarbonate lenses and always solved it with scratch remover fluid. Here in Rome we have very calcareous water and sometimes rinsing is even worse. I usually soak everything in a solution of Salt-X.
Now that I have a glass WWL-1, I am concerned.

On 8/9/2021 at 2:52 AM, Davide DB said:

I've always had polycarbonate lenses and always solved it with scratch remover fluid. Here in Rome we have very calcareous water and sometimes rinsing is even worse. I usually soak everything in a solution of Salt-X.
Now that I have a glass WWL-1, I am concerned.

I would suggest two steps, soak it in your tap water then seeing as how the WWL is relatively small soak it in demineralised water after the tap water in a smaller container.  The tap water you can use bigger volumes for rinsing and soaking to dilute the salt and then the demin water to get prevent deposits.   Or if you have a water softener that would also help. 

If the water is particularly alkaline then a few drops of white vinegar might also assist, glass is more likely to be etched by alkaline solutions.

Thank you Chris,

It remains a mystery to me why manufacturers don't provide an official answer on such a common problem. It is clear that in the long run a simple rinse is not enough.

17 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Thank you Chris,

It remains a mystery to me why manufacturers don't provide an official answer on such a common problem. It is clear that in the long run a simple rinse is not enough.

I would think that if you follow good practice and rinse/soak and importantly dry off the lens elements so the water does not evaporate from the surface you are unlikely to get problems for a long time.  I would speculate that many people don't take such good care of their gear based on observing how people handle gear when I've been on trips. 

I think not letting water even rinse water dry on your glass is quite important.  As the water evaporates the concentration of any salts/alkalis increases and becomes more reactive on the glass and repeatedly leaving water spots on the glass can build up over time.

As for the manufacturers their recommendations for care would be enough to avoid the majority of problems, but many people are not meticulous in their maintenance.

8 hours ago, ChrisRoss said:

think not letting water even rinse water dry on your glass is quite important.  As the water evaporates the concentration of any salts/alkalis increases and becomes more reactive on the glass and repeatedly leaving water spots on the glass can build up over time.

Chris you mentioned this on an earlier post and, honestly, the wipe-over is something I have never even thought about before. A great point, thanks. It's now part of my regular post dive care.

I've never actually seen spots which have dried on my ports but, most certainly, after a few months and many dives a "bloom" on the port begins to appear.

As you helpfully pointed out to in an earlier post, this doesn't seem to happen with domeports as most of us put a neoprene cover on the port (because of its cost!) and this keeps the port moist until rinsed thoroughly and, I guess, dried by the cover.

A small bottle of fresh water and a lint-free cloth are now permanently in my dive camera bag for a quick rinse n'wipe after the dives!

11 hours ago, TimG said:

Chris you mentioned this on an earlier post and, honestly, the wipe-over is something I have never even thought about before. A great point, thanks. It's now part of my regular post dive care.

I've never actually seen spots which have dried on my ports but, most certainly, after a few months and many dives a "bloom" on the port begins to appear.

As you helpfully pointed out to in an earlier post, this doesn't seem to happen with domeports as most of us put a neoprene cover on the port (because of its cost!) and this keeps the port moist until rinsed thoroughly and, I guess, dried by the cover.

A small bottle of fresh water and a lint-free cloth are now permanently in my dive camera bag for a quick rinse n'wipe after the dives!

I still dry my ports after soaking, first a blast with a blower bulb to move most of the water then a large microfibre cloth to dry it off.  The housing gets similar - blow water off the viewfinder, back window and also a quick blast to remove water from the optical port window.

Thanks Chris for the explanation about salt concentration. Always have been taking extreme care about my equipment and working in a very hot area, when I was seeing my neoprene cover getting quickly dry, I was afraid it could damage the glass. From now on I will be less stressed thanks to you !

The only lens I have had water marks on was my CMC 2, thought I lost it so decided to scrub it very hard with a wet microfiber cloth. I took a while and multiple attempts but each time it was getting better. It is fine now. But it could be different kind of marks that you guys were talking about

I don't have this issue at the moment, but I have a question or two....

Many dome ports are marketed as being coated on the exterior of the domes,  much like lenses, I suppose.   A lot of the recommendations above are for abrasives or somewhat harsh chemicals.  I never see anyone advocating using such products on camera  lenses.  Are we sure these products are really a good choice?  I guess maybe stripping the coating off of a dome is better than a dome with bad water spots, but has anyone ever asked a manufacturer for suggestions?

Just wondering, for when it is my turn.

Has anyone tried optic-specific products like R.O.R. or Zeiss lens cleaner or Eclipse?  I doubt they would work, but have not seen them mentioned.

2 hours ago, Draq said:

I don't have this issue at the moment, but I have a question or two....

Many dome ports are marketed as being coated on the exterior of the domes,  much like lenses, I suppose.   A lot of the recommendations above are for abrasives or somewhat harsh chemicals.  I never see anyone advocating using such products on camera  lenses.  Are we sure these products are really a good choice?  I guess maybe stripping the coating off of a dome is better than a dome with bad water spots, but has anyone ever asked a manufacturer for suggestions?

Just wondering, for when it is my turn.

Has anyone tried optic-specific products like R.O.R. or Zeiss lens cleaner or Eclipse?  I doubt they would work, but have not seen them mentioned.

It's hard to say - where do you draw the line on what is unacceptable?  The reason such things are required is that the surface is etched by concentrated salts when water evaporates on the glass.  It's not a film that can be removed  - etching means the surface texture has changed and the only way out is to polish the surface again.

It doesn't have to be your turn though - I always say prevention is better than cure for this problem.  Prevention consist of keeping the port glass wet until you can rinse off thoroughly and dry it .  First use a blower bulb to blow off all the droplets you can then a microfibre cloth to to wipe over the port so water does not evaporate and dry off on the surface.  IT is the water evaporating that causes the problem.

To keep the dome wet cover it it with the wet neoprene cover and throw a damp towel over it all.  For a macro port put a cap on it and throw the towel over it.  If you have a cooler bag for a personal rinse tank, leave it in there.  Do not let it dry out till you can rinse/soak it and then immediately dry it.  Doing this with your aluminium housing also preserves the appearance I've seen some very worn faded looking Nauticam housings around and this is from the same issue.