Best Salted Line Combo for a6300

2 hours ago, nuraman00 said:

Do you think any of the settings I mentioned above would help, and if so, which one?

What settings did you use?  an ISO setting on it's own doesn't tell you much, it's just a means to get the shutter speed and aperture where you want them. For most purposes a shutter speed between 1/125 and 1/250 should work out fine unless the subject is fast moving.

The shots you posted are a little flat and green - low contrast.  Settings really won't do much to improve them, it's more of a technique issue. 

Two things will help available light UW shots, first get closer, the less water you shoot through, the better and second think about the light, you want the sun behind you to get the best contrast.  Last thing is post processing will help, setting the black and white point in levels is a good first step.

After that you could try manually white balancing to reduce the blue-green cast in the shots.

13 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

What settings did you use?  an ISO setting on it's own doesn't tell you much, it's just a means to get the shutter speed and aperture where you want them. For most purposes a shutter speed between 1/125 and 1/250 should work out fine unless the subject is fast moving.

The shots you posted are a little flat and green - low contrast.  Settings really won't do much to improve them, it's more of a technique issue. 

Two things will help available light UW shots, first get closer, the less water you shoot through, the better and second think about the light, you want the sun behind you to get the best contrast.  Last thing is post processing will help, setting the black and white point in levels is a good first step.

After that you could try manually white balancing to reduce the blue-green cast in the shots.

Sorry I meant specifically for the LCD monitor being very hard to see, due to the sun's glare.

I struggled with it a lot on the Key West snorkeling, both on the boat, and underwater.  I tried to use my body to block the sun, but it didn't help much.

These were my first times using the camera, so the monitor settings were the default ones.

Do you think either of these would have helped?
 

A)  Use the eye sensor, disable the monitor.

B)  Turn the monitor brightness to the max setting (range from -2 to +2).

C)  Set the monitor to "Sunny Weather".  (That may have the same effect as option B).

18 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

The shots you posted are a little flat and green - low contrast.  Settings really won't do much to improve them, it's more of a technique issue. 

Two things will help available light UW shots, first get closer, the less water you shoot through, the better and second think about the light, you want the sun behind you to get the best contrast.  Last thing is post processing will help, setting the black and white point in levels is a good first step.

After that you could try manually white balancing to reduce the blue-green cast in the shots.

In which direction would I adjust the white balance?

3 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

In which direction would I adjust the white balance?

In the shots you have already you can increase temperature which effects blue-yellow balance and increase tint which impacts magenta-green.  For future shots you can set a custom WB in camera.

Or you adjust colour balance in levels.  this link explains:  https://digital-photography-school.com/using-levels-photoshop-image-correct-color-contrast/

If you give permission I can do this to one of your posted images and post it here so you can how it looks after the adjustment.

7 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

Sorry I meant specifically for the LCD monitor being very hard to see, due to the sun's glare.

I struggled with it a lot on the Key West snorkeling, both on the boat, and underwater.  I tried to use my body to block the sun, but it didn't help much.

These were my first times using the camera, so the monitor settings were the default ones.

Do you think either of these would have helped?
 

A)  Use the eye sensor, disable the monitor.

B)  Turn the monitor brightness to the max setting (range from -2 to +2).

C)  Set the monitor to "Sunny Weather".  (That may have the same effect as option B).

I don't have any specific recommendation - bright as possible sounds like a starting point, either that or try out the LCD magnifier which should improve the view a lot.

9 hours ago, nuraman00 said:

What is the sea creature in the last picture then?  I thought some of the other people in the tour group, around me, say they saw manta rays.  So when I looked and saw that, I thought it was a manta ray too.

It's a stingray of some sort, but I can't tell exactly which species. Mantas are pelagic, i.e. they swim freely in the water column, whereas your stingray is benthic, living on the bottom. Mantas are also huge, reaching 15-20 feet in wingspan.

6 hours ago, nuraman00 said:

I struggled with it a lot on the Key West snorkeling, both on the boat, and underwater.  I tried to use my body to block the sun, but it didn't help much. 

These were my first times using the camera, so the monitor settings were the default ones.

Do you think either of these would have helped?
  

A)  Use the eye sensor, disable the monitor.

B)  Turn the monitor brightness to the max setting (range from -2 to +2).

C)  Set the monitor to "Sunny Weather".  (That may have the same effect as option B). 

EVF is useless without an add-on viewfinder, and SeaFrogs don't have one. I considered adapting an Inon viewfinder to the SeaFrogs housing, but then saw a tremendously good deal on a Nauticam LCD magnifier and went with that.

If you're having issues seeing the LCD, make sure your brightness is set to full (I always have it in 'sunny weather' mode). Also, the shots that you posted seem to indicate that you're shooting downwards - this is a common beginner mistake, but underwater photos tend to look much better when taken at an upward angle. I'm not sure whether or not the a6100 has an electronic level - I know a6000 doesn't, while my a6300 does, and I find it extremely useful at reminding me not to point the camera down. If you point the camera upward and have the bundled LCD hood attached, that should cut down on the glare quite a bit.

Like Chris said, get close, and then get closer. Shoot in RAW, then use white balance point tool in your processing software to color balance the image from something that is neutral grey - a patch of sand or rock, another diver's tank, grey fish scales, etc. If there is nothing in the shot that's suitably grey, copy the white balance settings from another shot taken at around the same time in similar conditions. Note that getting close enough to larger subjects for good color and contrast requires an ultrawide (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) lens - 16mm on APS-C, behind a flat port that further reduces the field of view is not particularly wide. Assuming you're using the default flat port with the SeaFrogs housing, you can either change to a Sony 10-18mm lens with a dome port (either 6-inch or 8-inch), or a wet wide lens such as Weefine/Kraken WFL-01/KRL-01 or AOI/Fantasea UWL-09 and mount it on a threaded flat port. There is a flip adapter that allows mounting M67 wet lenses to the basic port, but it's expensive and won't work very well with 16-50mm + wet wide lens in that port because there is a significant gap between the camera lens front element and the port glass - the port is built to accommodate the 10-18mm lens at full extension, which is somewhat longer than the 16-50mm.

Edit: I was browsing unterwasserkamera.at and found this: https://www.unterwasserkamera.at/shop/catalog/en/product_info.php?info=p5361_d-d-lcd-viewfinder-universal.html

On 7/28/2022 at 5:40 PM, ChrisRoss said:

In the shots you have already you can increase temperature which effects blue-yellow balance and increase tint which impacts magenta-green.  For future shots you can set a custom WB in camera.

Or you adjust colour balance in levels.  this link explains:  https://digital-photography-school.com/using-levels-photoshop-image-correct-color-contrast/

If you give permission I can do this to one of your posted images and post it here so you can how it looks after the adjustment.

 

Sure, can you adjust an image so I can see?  Let me know which software you use, and how you did it.

For White Balance, should I try the "Underwater Auto" setting?  I just tried some test shots right now inside a large room.  I didn't see a difference between regular Auto and Underwater Auto.  I realize I'm not underwater right now, I just wanted to see if I could see a difference in some test shots.

Possible White Balance settings are:  Auto / Daylight / Shade / Cloudy / Incandescent / Fluor.: Warm White / Fluor.: Cool White / Fluor.: Day White / Fluor.: Daylight / Flash / Underwater Auto .

Even within those settings, I can still adjust the settings manually using a 2-dimensional axis.  For example, up is more green, down is more magenta.  There's also left and right adjustments I can make.

On 7/28/2022 at 11:47 PM, Barmaglot said:

Also, the shots that you posted seem to indicate that you're shooting downwards - this is a common beginner mistake, but underwater photos tend to look much better when taken at an upward angle. I'm not sure whether or not the a6100 has an electronic level - I know a6000 doesn't, while my a6300 does, and I find it extremely useful at reminding me not to point the camera down. If you point the camera upward and have the bundled LCD hood attached, that should cut down on the glare quite a bit.

Why is shooting upwards better?  Is that because the sun would no longer be behind me, but in front of me?

Also, while snorkeling, is it that easy to shoot upwards?  Since there's only a little bit of distance one can go, while the air tube can still reach the surface.

Would it be physically hard to get deep enough where one can angle upwards, but still have the air tube reaching the surface?  Maybe if I see a picture of someone snorkeling and angling upwards, I can understand the positioning better.

On 7/28/2022 at 11:47 PM, Barmaglot said:

It's a stingray of some sort, but I can't tell exactly which species. Mantas are pelagic, i.e. they swim freely in the water column, whereas your stingray is benthic, living on the bottom. Mantas are also huge, reaching 15-20 feet in wingspan.

Thanks.

On 7/28/2022 at 11:47 PM, Barmaglot said:

I'm not sure whether or not the a6100 has an electronic level - I know a6000 doesn't, while my a6300 does, and I find it extremely useful at reminding me not to point the camera down. If you point the camera upward and have the bundled LCD hood attached, that should cut down on the glare quite a bit.

The a6100 appears to have an electronic viewfinder:

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/sony-a6100

On 7/28/2022 at 11:47 PM, Barmaglot said:

Like Chris said, get close, and then get closer. Shoot in RAW, then use white balance point tool in your processing software to color balance the image from something that is neutral grey - a patch of sand or rock, another diver's tank, grey fish scales, etc. If there is nothing in the shot that's suitably grey, copy the white balance settings from another shot taken at around the same time in similar conditions. Note that getting close enough to larger subjects for good color and contrast requires an ultrawide (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) (weitwinkel) lens - 16mm on APS-C, behind a flat port that further reduces the field of view is not particularly wide. Assuming you're using the default flat port with the SeaFrogs housing, you can either change to a Sony 10-18mm lens with a dome port (either 6-inch or 8-inch), or a wet wide lens such as Weefine/Kraken WFL-01/KRL-01 or AOI/Fantasea UWL-09 and mount it on a threaded flat port. There is a flip adapter that allows mounting M67 wet lenses to the basic port, but it's expensive and won't work very well with 16-50mm + wet wide lens in that port because there is a significant gap between the camera lens front element and the port glass - the port is built to accommodate the 10-18mm lens at full extension, which is somewhat longer than the 16-50mm.

Edit: I was browsing unterwasserkamera.at and found this: https://www.unterwasserkamera.at/shop/catalog/en/product_info.php?info=p5361_d-d-lcd-viewfinder-universal.html

Regarding LCD magnifiers, whether I get something like this:

https://www.nauticam.com/products/lcd-magnifier-with-dioptric-adjustment

Or this:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1129189-REG/elvid_ov_50_optiview_50_3_2_lcd.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A6879&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0JiXBhCFARIsAOSAKqDlu4_I7IbqH9LL_IAXKHPax05Ujx1dYVPyO-hHF1DwtJY_Ql8JPfwaAtdZEALw_wcB

How do I know it will fit with the salted line underwater case?

Do you think that the 16-50mm lens I have is good in general?  Just not always great for larger subjects?

So you think the Sony E 10-18mm lens would have been better for larger subjects?  And that would have helped me get closer? 

I don't know what I'm going to find at each spot, so I would start with the 16-50mm.  Then get back on the boat, change to the wide lens, then try again.  But there's also not much time sometimes to do all of this.  Probably 30-45 minutes per snorkel spot.  Swimming back to the boat, drying off, changing lens, then going back out might take too much time.  I think your suggestions for another lens are good, but I think want to try things I can do while I'm already in the water, like getting closer, adjusting my shooting angle, and adjusting some manual settings. 

Also do I need to shoot in RAW for post processing, or can I also do them with JPEGs?

Back to the topic of housing, and having trouble seeing in the sun.

So the first thing I'll try is adjusting the brightness, either to max brightness or sunny weather mode.

But, other than that, would using the eye sensor instead of the monitor be better?  And if not, what's wrong with trying the eye sensor?

Also, would I have been better off getting a different brand housing, and one that supports an LCD magnifier add-on?  And if so, which exact housing brand and which lcd magnifier?  Something that's in stock.  (Seems like a lot of things underwater related are not in stock.)

I've already bought the salted line housing, so I want to do everything I can to make it work.

I just sent Nauticam an email asking them if the LCD magnifier would work with my salted line underwater housing.

1 hour ago, nuraman00 said:

Regarding LCD magnifiers, whether I get something like this:

https://www.nauticam.com/products/lcd-magnifier-with-dioptric-adjustment

 

Or this:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1129189-REG/elvid_ov_50_optiview_50_3_2_lcd.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A6879&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0JiXBhCFARIsAOSAKqDlu4_I7IbqH9LL_IAXKHPax05Ujx1dYVPyO-hHF1DwtJY_Ql8JPfwaAtdZEALw_wcB

How do I know it will fit with the salted line underwater case?

The second one is meant for land usage; it might survive immersion in salt water, or it might not - if it has any metal parts without protective coatings, they will rust. Regardless, the Salted Line housing does not have rails for attaching an LCD magnifier, it only has four little pegs for attaching the bundled hood, and there's the cylindrical viewfinder in the upper left corner that intrudes a bit into the LCD. The way you attach a magnifier to it is make a few cuts in its hood and sew it onto the bundled hood, so that it functions as the intermediate interface - see the Scubaboard post I linked earlier. The D&D universal magnifier uses cords to attach to the housing; they go around the front and might hold it securely enough without any DIY action.

1 hour ago, nuraman00 said:

For White Balance, should I try the "Underwater Auto" setting?  I just tried some test shots right now inside a large room.  I didn't see a difference between regular Auto and Underwater Auto.  I realize I'm not underwater right now, I just wanted to see if I could see a difference in some test shots.

For photos, just shoot RAW and adjust the white balance in post.

1 hour ago, nuraman00 said:

Also, while snorkeling, is it that easy to shoot upwards?  Since there's only a little bit of distance one can go, while the air tube can still reach the surface.

If you're staying on the surface, then no, it's not really possible. If you want to shoot quality pictures without going full SCUBA, then you need to learn breath-hold freediving.

1 hour ago, nuraman00 said:

The a6100 appears to have an electronic viewfinder: 

I'm referring to electronic level, not viewfinder - https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/support/articles/00014661

1 hour ago, nuraman00 said:

 

Do you think that the 16-50mm lens I have is good in general?  Just not always great for larger subjects?

So you think the Sony E 10-18mm lens would have been better for larger subjects?  And that would have helped me get closer?  

I don't know what I'm going to find at each spot, so I would start with the 16-50mm.  Then get back on the boat, change to the wide lens, then try again.  But there's also not much time sometimes to do all of this.  Probably 30-45 minutes per snorkel spot.  Swimming back to the boat, drying off, changing lens, then going back out might take too much time.  I think your suggestions for another lens are good, but I think want to try things I can do while I'm already in the water, like getting closer, adjusting my shooting angle, and adjusting some manual settings.  

16-50mm is a good lens, just not always wide enough when you get close to a subject. Consider adding a wet lens such as AOI/Fantasea UWL-09 - you can attach and detach it underwater, to suit the shot, although if you do that you will also need a way to carry it while detached. If you use the 10-18mm, then you will also need a dome port - using it underwater with a flat port produces extreme levels of distortion.

1 hour ago, nuraman00 said:

Also do I need to shoot in RAW for post processing, or can I also do them with JPEGs?

RAW format records the raw data from the camera's sensor - basically, the read-out charge level of each individual photosite, whereas recording in JPEG has the camera's processor take that raw data and create an image from it. In this process, some of the data is discarded. Shooting RAW and processing it manually allows you to define your own settings for processing the image, and is highly useful when shooting underwater, especially in natural light. If you try to post-process JPEGs, the results won't be as good.

8 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

The second one is meant for land usage; it might survive immersion in salt water, or it might not - if it has any metal parts without protective coatings, they will rust. Regardless, the Salted Line housing does not have rails for attaching an LCD magnifier, it only has four little pegs for attaching the bundled hood, and there's the cylindrical viewfinder in the upper left corner that intrudes a bit into the LCD. The way you attach a magnifier to it is make a few cuts in its hood and sew it onto the bundled hood, so that it functions as the intermediate interface - see the Scubaboard post I linked earlier. The D&D universal magnifier uses cords to attach to the housing; they go around the front and might hold it securely enough without any DIY action.

Thank you for explaining.  I prefer a solution that's not DIY.

I just checked the shipping countries for what the D&D magnifier that you linked to.

It appears the United States is not one of them.

https://www.unterwasserkamera.at/shop/catalog/en/info/Shipping-and-payment-conditions.html

16 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

16-50mm is a good lens, just not always wide enough when you get close to a subject. Consider adding a wet lens such as AOI/Fantasea UWL-09 - you can attach and detach it underwater, to suit the shot, although if you do that you will also need a way to carry it while detached. If you use the 10-18mm, then you will also need a dome port - using it underwater with a flat port produces extreme levels of distortion.

Would that wet lens work on a salted line housing?  If not, I can't find something that specifically says it would work with a salted line housing.

How do I know if a magnifier is meant for land usage or can work with underwater housing?

6 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

Would that wet lens work on a salted line housing?  If not, I can't find something that specifically says it would work with a salted line housing.

It attaches using the 67mm threads on this port: https://seafrogs.com.hk/collections/a6xxx-salted-line/products/macro-port-for-a6xxx-salted-line - I own this combination and can confirm that it's working.

18 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

Thank you for explaining.  I prefer a solution that's not DIY.

I'm not aware of any solution for a screen magnifier on a Sony camera housing that does not involve some DIY work. In fact, the only non-compact camera housing that I know of where you can get a screen magnifier direct from manufacturer is the AOI line of housings for Olympus cameras - their housings for Olympus E-PL 9/10, E-M1 II/III and OM-1 have rails for attaching either a UMG-01 straight magnifier or a UMG-05 90-degree magnifier. The Nauticam magnifier only fits their compact camera housings.

2 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

It attaches using the 67mm threads on this port: https://seafrogs.com.hk/collections/a6xxx-salted-line/products/macro-port-for-a6xxx-salted-line - I own this combination and can confirm that it's working.

I'm not aware of any solution for a screen magnifier on a Sony camera housing that does not involve some DIY work. In fact, the only non-compact camera housing that I know of where you can get a screen magnifier direct from manufacturer is the AOI line of housings for Olympus cameras - their housings for Olympus E-PL 9/10, E-M1 II/III and OM-1 have rails for attaching either a UMG-01 straight magnifier or a UMG-05 90-degree magnifier. The Nauticam magnifier only fits their compact camera housings.

Thanks.  I was close to buying an Olympus E-PL10.  But after I placed my order, they said the underwater housing would take 1 - 2 weeks to arrive.  I couldn't wait that long, since I was going on a trip soon.  So I cancelled and went with the Sony alpha and salted line housing, since both items were in stock and would arrive within a few days.

Ok, so since I'm avoiding a DIY solution, I will try the brightness settings and see how that helps first.

One more question for now.  I'm still unclear why using the eye sensor doesn't help with the sun glare, when compared to the LCD monitor.  I didn't try it, but am just trying to ask someone that has tried it and can explain. 

22 minutes ago, Barmaglot said:

The Nauticam magnifier only fits their compact camera housings. 

And there doesn't seem to be a Nauticam housing for the a6100, correct?

https://www.nauticam.com/collections/sony-mil-housings

Even if there were, that style of housing just looks too bulky for snorkeling.  It looks like it's meant for diving.

31 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

One more question for now.  I'm still unclear why using the eye sensor doesn't help with the sun glare, when compared to the LCD monitor.  I didn't try it, but am just trying to ask someone that has tried it and can explain. 

I tried it and found it basically unusable with a dive mask. YMMV.

14 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

And there doesn't seem to be a Nauticam housing for the a6100, correct?

https://www.nauticam.com/collections/sony-mil-housings 

No target market for it. If you're sinking $5k+ into a housing and ports, why would you save a couple hundred by buying an A6100 over A6400? Regardless, with a Nauticam mirrorless housing, you won't get mounting rails for an LCD magnifier - their solution is to use an add-on viewfinder, like https://www.nauticam.com/collections/viewfinders/products/nauticam-180-straight-viewfinder-for-mil-housings or https://www.nauticam.com/collections/viewfinders/products/nauticam-45-viewfinder-for-mil-housings