Wetpixel Live: Sony a7R V for UW Shooters?

Thanks for the insight on the EMWL issues. Good to know they are not an issue on the newer Sony cameras. 

Thanks also for the reassurance about the fisheye. I should add that I was never discouraged from using the fisheye (it was my most used lens) and I produced a lot of pleasing images with it. It was just important to be clear for the review, that as tested fisheye AF was inferior to my Nikon, while Sony lens AF was superior. Also had I been planning to do a proper review pre-trip, I would have tried to sort it out in the field or at least tried an adaptor from one of the many Sonys that we had in my two workshops groups. I don’t really have time to come up to breathe during the Cayman workshops! 

Alex

4 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

I was asking for a "proven" adapter, if any. But my real question was: if many WP users come from D850 or D500 why I don't see mention about using Nikon lens on Sony camera?

I don’t think many have switched yet. I think you should start the thread on the topic now - and it will probably end up with 1000s of views in 12 months!

7 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Phil, don't get me wrong. I know exactly how google for shiny new toys on the net.

I was asking for a "proven" adapter, if any. But my real question was: if many WP users come from D850 or D500 why I don't see mention about using Nikon lens on Sony camera?

Maybe is a naive question. Sorry in advance.

As a long time Sony user I can tell you that the Canon adapters came well before the Nikon ones because it was a lot harder to get the AF working with Nikon. The Only adapter for Nikon I have used was for the Nikon 8-15 to a Nikon Z camera, that worked great. Hope the link from Alex helps.

I add here the experience of my buddy who got a A7RIV few months ago. I asked some info here on adapters...

First he got a Sigma 15mm and a MC11 adapter. Latest fw release on camera and adapter: a total mess. The camera gets totally unresponsive.

Then he got a Canon 8-15mm and the latest metabones. Simply perfect.

Other combinations work too. 8-15mm on MC11 and Sigma 15mm on metabones.

So from what I saw: beware of Sigma 15mm and MC11 and A7RIV with latest firmware. I read that many users use them but I guess they did not update ring or camera firmware. BTW Sigma 15mm is not on the list of MC11 compatible lens anymore.

Maybe with A7RV or A1 is a different story.

48 minutes ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I don’t think many have switched yet. I think you should start the thread on the topic now - and it will probably end up with 1000s of views in 12 months!

Hahaha Actually I'm not into photography and I was asking for my buddy who has a lot of DX Nikon glasses and he would like to use them on his new A7RIV in APSC mode but after the Sigma MC11 experience he is afraid to be a guinea pig

11 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Hahaha Actually I'm not into photography and I was asking for my buddy who has a lot of DX Nikon glasses and he would like to use them on his new A7RIV in APSC mode but after the Sigma MC11 experience he is afraid to be a guinea pig

11 hours ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I don’t think many have switched yet. I think you should start the thread on the topic now - and it will probably end up with 1000s of views in 12 months!

Since there is no rush to switch from Nikon DSLR to mirrorless, as pointed out by several posters already, I believe that for people that have already a complete Nikon system, it may be better to wait until Nikon comes out with a reasonably sized Z-body with similar properties as the Sony A7RV (what may happen this year): The known compatibility problems of older Nikon lenses with Z-mount will remain, but they are smaller compared to mount the lenses on Sony cameras. In addition, these people will be able to use all existing and future Z-mount lenses, what will not be possible with Sony cameras. Also Sony lenses (e.g. the 28-60mm) can be used on Nikon Z-mount via adapter...

Wolfgang

I know this is still a relatively moot point, but in terms of optical performance, the use of any adaptor will negate some of the beneficial optical design advantages inherent in a mirrorless system. Granted, the lens' optical performance will be the same as it is on an SLR, but one of the advantages of the redesign of lens mount flanges includes the possibility of better optical image quality. 

Effectively, this also emphasises that current SLR users should "wait and see" what the various brands do in terms of lens options. For new users, the only option is probably to buy SLR lenses that are not optimum and then upgrade them later, which kind of sucks. I guess this is the perils of being an early adopter. 

Native fisheye and a variety of macro focal lengths please....

14 minutes ago, adamhanlon said:

I know this is still a relatively moot point, but in terms of optical performance, the use of any adaptor will negate some of the beneficial optical design advantages inherent in a mirrorless system. Granted, the lens' optical performance will be the same as it is on an SLR, but one of the advantages of the redesign of lens mount flanges includes the possibility of better optical image quality. 

Effectively, this also emphasises that current SLR users should "wait and see" what the various brands do in terms of lens options. For new users, the only option is probably to buy SLR lenses that are not optimum and then upgrade them later, which kind of sucks. I guess this is the perils of being an early adopter. 

Native fisheye and a variety of macro focal lengths please....

The adapter brings the performance exactly to the same point of a DSLR

If the lens is able or not to resolve the sensor resolution is always a challenge

The canon 8-15mm is an exceptional lens even on APSC with old models delivered 65 lpmm which is outstanding by all means

If a new fisheye native comes we do not know if this will beat or not the canon which works very well on canon high resolution DSLRs

Mirrorless reduced flange distance actually comes at price of increased chromatic aberrations and distortion that get corrected in software. Making lens smaller has a price especially for wide angle

On 2/4/2023 at 2:44 PM, hyp said:

In another thread on here, it was mentioned that the focusing behaviour of the aperture changed with the newest Sony cameras (not sure, which model is the first with the new behaviour) which allows the EMWL to be used without issue.

On 2/4/2023 at 4:21 PM, Gudge said:

I have had no issues with focus using the EMWL on my A7RIV.

Yes, I mentioned in another thread that I recently had the opportunity to test it with the A7R IV, and in AF-C mode the issue is fixed since it focuses with the aperture stopped down (unlike my A7R II). I assume the other newer bodies like the A7R V behave similarly. 

Since then I’ve also had the opportunity to test it with the relay (I had only used the EMWL without it), and it seemed to reduce the backfocus issue (though MF was still a tad more accurate). So perhaps Nauticam should not be saying that it can be used without the relay without noting this potential issue. On the other hand, my testing showed better image quality without the relay, so I will continue to go without it and figure out a workaround for the issue.

Anyway, it seems that in my case the issue is caused by a couple factors (older camera, no relay) that won't apply to many other Sony users. On the other hand, Edward indicated that there was a wide range of behaviors across all the different camera models/lenses, so it's still unclear how much of an issue it might be for some of the other setups. 

I’m still curious if Alex knows about a new/updated focus unit that fixes the problem or if I just misinterpreted that line in the review?

1 hour ago, Isaac Szabo said:

I’m still curious if Alex knows about a new/updated focus unit that fixes the problem or if I just misinterpreted that line in the review?

I had mistakenly thought that the Focus Unit was new. But as you all say, it is not. 

I did use the reversed viewfinder (designed so you can shoot without the relay). I didn’t try this on the Sony, only on my Subal SLR, as a preparation for Wetpixel Lembeh. Tried it in the pool and the sea (photo in the pool, taken with the A7RV). While it does a nice job flipping the image back to being correct, it does flip all the shooting information and also when you move the focus point, it goes in the opposite direction. I also found I had to be right at the end of the diopter adjustment on the viewfinder to get focus. Was going to have a play with it again before Lembeh.

Alex 

1 minute ago, Alex_Mustard said:

I had mistakenly thought that the Focus Unit was new. But as you all say, it is not. 

I did use the reversed viewfinder (designed so you can shoot without the relay). I didn’t try this on the Sony, only on my Subal SLR, as a preparation for Wetpixel Lembeh. Tried it in the pool and the sea (photo in the pool, taken with the A7RV). While it does a nice job flipping the image back to being correct, it does flip all the shooting information and also when you move the focus point, it goes in the opposite direction.

Ah well that's OK. It's not much of a problem for me anymore since I now know I can fix it by upgrading my camera. I also figured out a decent fix for my current setup by modifying my macro lens so the aperture can't open up as wide.

That's great that they're making a reversed viewfinder. I use it without the relay with a monitor that allows me to correct the inverted image, but it will be nice to have a viewfinder option. But yes, the shooting information, menus, focus point, etc is all reversed. I personally have been able to make do with that, but I can see how it wouldn't be worth it for some.

Actually.. there is no dslr killer. The dslr will die of by itself.
If you are going to start
.. now... pick up something that guys abandoning to go mirrorless.

You should be able to get a good deal. Heh

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

On 2/6/2023 at 10:33 PM, Interceptor121 said:

 

Mirrorless reduced flange distance actually comes at price of increased chromatic aberrations and distortion that get corrected in software. Making lens smaller has a price especially for wide angle

What Adam is referring to is that DSLR must use a retrofocus lens design to focus a short focus length lens on the sensor with a mirror box between the lens flange and the sensor.  This additional optics can degrade the image and for example Leica rangefinder lenses were highly regarded because they could be designed without the addition of retrofocus design elements.  

Unfortunately Leica lenses have problems on digital sensors as the light on the edge of the field arrives at a steep angle which is a problem for the microlenses above each pixel. So digital versions need a different design that brings in the corner rays at a less acute angle and having a shorter flange distance makes this easier to achieve.  They still may need some retrofocus correction depending on flange distance for very short focal lengths, but theoretically it possible to develop improved designs.  Whether this benefit is actually realised depends on the skills of the designer of each lens and the design criteria they are working with, compact and cheap kit lenses almost certainly won't see any benefit.

3 minutes ago, ChrisRoss said:

What Adam is referring to is that DSLR must use a retrofocus lens design to focus a short focus length lens on the sensor with a mirror box between the lens flange and the sensor.  This additional optics can degrade the image and for example Leica rangefinder lenses were highly regarded because they could be designed without the addition of retrofocus design elements.  

Unfortunately Leica lenses have problems on digital sensors as the light on the edge of the field arrives at a steep angle which is a problem for the microlenses above each pixel. So digital versions need a different design that brings in the corner rays at a less acute angle and having a shorter flange distance makes this easier to achieve.  They still may need some retrofocus correction depending on flange distance for very short focal lengths, but theoretically it possible to develop improved designs.  Whether this benefit is actually realised depends on the skills of the designer of each lens and the design criteria they are working with, compact and cheap kit lenses almost certainly won't see any benefit.

To be frank when I look at Nauticam port charts and general lenses availability my take is that Nikon is lagging behind with lenses. They have as many solutions as Panasonic L Mount however looking at Canon the situation is better and when you look at Sony E-mount you have all choices except a native fisheye

We can digress that Nikon made 3 macro lenses that happen to fit into the blackwater use case but it took them 10 years to get there so eventually they will get there once the basics for Z mount are sorted

So for me it is not the Mirrorless are behind is that Adam and many other people here are Nikon users and Nikon Mirrorless is behind but am sure now that they stopped developing DSLR they will catch up

I am pretty sure a native fisheye is definitely not a priority while a short macro will come sooner